User talk:The Jolly Bard: Difference between revisions
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[[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, and [[Wikipedia:Introduction|welcome to Wikipedia]]. You appear to be engaged in an [[Wikipedia:Edit warring|edit war]] with one or more editors according to your reverts at [[:Chronic fatigue syndrome]]. Although repeatedly [[Help:Reverting|reverting or undoing]] another editor's contributions may seem necessary to protect your preferred version of a page, on Wikipedia this is usually seen as obstructing the [[Wikipedia:Editing policy|normal editing process]], and often creates animosity between editors. Instead of edit warring, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] on the [[:Talk:Chronic fatigue syndrome|talk page]]. |
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It's entirely inappropriate for you to claim that I have a COI when you have no idea who I am, what my symptoms are, or what disease I actually have. My belief on the question of ME vs. CFS is "I don't know". I don't believe that "I know the [[WP:TRUTH|truth]]". Wikipedia is not the place for truth, it's the place for verifiable views based on current medical literature, which I adequately provided, and others agreed that I had adequately provided. Heck, one was from an ME website! You provided three possible sources of support for your belief, most of which were dismissed as being non-MEDRS, and the one that wasn't, I acknolwedged myself may one day support a split. The other sources you cited may also well be right—in fact, it's my strong belief that there will one day be distinctions made between ME and CFS—but we're not at the point where we ''know'' with certainty what those distinctions are. You cannot simply dismiss my views just because you disagree with them. That's a form of [[WP:personal attack|personal attack]] (second and possibly fifth bullets [[WP:WIAPA|here]]) and is not allowed on Wikipedia. |
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If editors continue to revert to their preferred version they are likely to lose [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|editing privileges]]. This isn't done to punish an editor, but to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring. In particular, editors should be aware of the [[Wikipedia:Edit warring#The three-revert rule|three-revert rule]], which says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Edit warring on Wikipedia is not acceptable in any amount, and violating the three-revert rule is very likely to lead to a [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|loss of editing privileges]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:uw-ewsoft --> [[User:Alexbrn|Alexbrn]] ([[User talk:Alexbrn|talk]]) 17:46, 29 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Since we're on the subject, though, what distinctions ''are'' you making between the terms "chronic fatigue", "chronic fatigue syndrome", and "myalgic encephalomyelitis"? <span style="white-space:nowrap; line-height:100%;">– [[User:RobinHood70|<span style="color:royalblue; font-size:140%; font-family:Vladimir Script,serif">Robin Hood</span>]] [[User_talk:RobinHood70|<sup style="font-size:70%">(talk)</sup>]]</span> 02:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC) |
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:There is nothing wrong with having a conflict of interest as such. You're allowed to have them. It's not an accusation, you're not getting attacked or reported or anything. The problem is that when you're editing (or discussing) you are unable to judge your own neutrality. Your viewpoint above of "I don't know" may sound neutral, but it isn't. It's clouding your judgement when objectively we might know. i felt it necessary to make you aware of this, but now that you are, it needs no repeating. Cheers, [[User:The Jolly Bard|The Jolly Bard]] ([[User talk:The Jolly Bard#top|talk]]) 11:06, 2 July 2015 (UTC) |
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:As to your question: none, as a Wikipedia editor. My intention is to reflect the available knowledge. This leads to the following. |
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:* Chronic fatigue is a symptom, with many possible causes and not all of them medical. |
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:* Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is a case definition intended to select a homogenous group of patients for research, that suffer from certain medical complaints without a known cause. It belongs to the category 'unexplained fatigue and malaise'. |
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:* Myalgic encephalomyelitis is a specific post-viral neuro-immune disorder, characterized firstly by inflammation of the central nervous system and muscle pain. |
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::I think "I don't know" is inherently far more of a neutral stance than "I know something that's not reported in virtually any medical journal". As to the alleged bias, given that I have ICC-defined ME, as well as anybody else's definition of either ME or CFS, I reject your assertion that I have any kind of conflict or bias. The reasons I use the term "CFS" are numerous, and are not intended to reflect any specific diagnostic criteria or symptoms. |
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::As for your assertion of what ME is, can you provide any specific reports that can prove that that's what ME is? The last I heard, more physicians and researchers were looking at post-exertional malaise as the thing that set ME patients apart rather than being post-viral. While a minority, there are nevertheless a substantial minority (I think 25%, if I'm remembering correctly) who have ICC-defined ME, but who do not have a clear post-viral onset. <span style="white-space:nowrap; line-height:100%;">– [[User:RobinHood70|<span style="color:royalblue; font-size:140%; font-family:Vladimir Script,serif">Robin Hood</span>]] [[User_talk:RobinHood70|<sup style="font-size:70%">(talk)</sup>]]</span> 19:30, 2 July 2015 (UTC) |
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::::No, requiring proof, or at least reliable sources, is NPOV, not COI. <span style="white-space:nowrap; line-height:100%;">– [[User:RobinHood70|<span style="color:royalblue; font-size:140%; font-family:Vladimir Script,serif">Robin Hood</span>]] [[User_talk:RobinHood70|<sup style="font-size:70%">(talk)</sup>]]</span> 21:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::I've said what I wanted to say. You seem to think that I am attacking you, but I'm not. I'm just trying to make you aware of a problem with your contributions. If you don't want to hear it, so be it. Come back when you do, then I may be able to help you. [[User:The Jolly Bard|The Jolly Bard]] ([[User talk:The Jolly Bard#top|talk]]) 22:04, 2 July 2015 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 22:04, 2 July 2015
Welcome! On this page I will discuss only content-related issues.
Please stop
It's entirely inappropriate for you to claim that I have a COI when you have no idea who I am, what my symptoms are, or what disease I actually have. My belief on the question of ME vs. CFS is "I don't know". I don't believe that "I know the truth". Wikipedia is not the place for truth, it's the place for verifiable views based on current medical literature, which I adequately provided, and others agreed that I had adequately provided. Heck, one was from an ME website! You provided three possible sources of support for your belief, most of which were dismissed as being non-MEDRS, and the one that wasn't, I acknolwedged myself may one day support a split. The other sources you cited may also well be right—in fact, it's my strong belief that there will one day be distinctions made between ME and CFS—but we're not at the point where we know with certainty what those distinctions are. You cannot simply dismiss my views just because you disagree with them. That's a form of personal attack (second and possibly fifth bullets here) and is not allowed on Wikipedia.
Since we're on the subject, though, what distinctions are you making between the terms "chronic fatigue", "chronic fatigue syndrome", and "myalgic encephalomyelitis"? – Robin Hood (talk) 02:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with having a conflict of interest as such. You're allowed to have them. It's not an accusation, you're not getting attacked or reported or anything. The problem is that when you're editing (or discussing) you are unable to judge your own neutrality. Your viewpoint above of "I don't know" may sound neutral, but it isn't. It's clouding your judgement when objectively we might know. i felt it necessary to make you aware of this, but now that you are, it needs no repeating. Cheers, The Jolly Bard (talk) 11:06, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
- As to your question: none, as a Wikipedia editor. My intention is to reflect the available knowledge. This leads to the following.
- Chronic fatigue is a symptom, with many possible causes and not all of them medical.
- Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is a case definition intended to select a homogenous group of patients for research, that suffer from certain medical complaints without a known cause. It belongs to the category 'unexplained fatigue and malaise'.
- Myalgic encephalomyelitis is a specific post-viral neuro-immune disorder, characterized firstly by inflammation of the central nervous system and muscle pain.
- Note that there also exists the concept of 'fatigue syndrome', which is a psychiatric diagnosis. The Jolly Bard (talk) 11:21, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
- I think "I don't know" is inherently far more of a neutral stance than "I know something that's not reported in virtually any medical journal". As to the alleged bias, given that I have ICC-defined ME, as well as anybody else's definition of either ME or CFS, I reject your assertion that I have any kind of conflict or bias. The reasons I use the term "CFS" are numerous, and are not intended to reflect any specific diagnostic criteria or symptoms.
- As for your assertion of what ME is, can you provide any specific reports that can prove that that's what ME is? The last I heard, more physicians and researchers were looking at post-exertional malaise as the thing that set ME patients apart rather than being post-viral. While a minority, there are nevertheless a substantial minority (I think 25%, if I'm remembering correctly) who have ICC-defined ME, but who do not have a clear post-viral onset. – Robin Hood (talk) 19:30, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
- This is what can happen if you have a COI. You won't accept anything that deviates from your point of view unless there is PROOF, and of course you will also be the judge of that. The Jolly Bard (talk) 20:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
- No, requiring proof, or at least reliable sources, is NPOV, not COI. – Robin Hood (talk) 21:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
- I've said what I wanted to say. You seem to think that I am attacking you, but I'm not. I'm just trying to make you aware of a problem with your contributions. If you don't want to hear it, so be it. Come back when you do, then I may be able to help you. The Jolly Bard (talk) 22:04, 2 July 2015 (UTC)