Talk:Stellar designations and names

Alternative Point of View

I have tried to remove some of the "astronomer bias" out of this article. The fact remains that commercial star naming companies disclaim association with the scientific community and inform consumers that star naming is a novelty gift. Informed consumers make the purchase anyway. This is a controversial subject where only the astronomers view is being provided. I have tried to temper the astronomers bias out of this controversy. My edits should stand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glennconti (talk • contribs) 14:40, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

"Informed consumers make the purchase anyway.". Really? I would think that a genuinely informed consumer would save their money. Skeptic2 (talk) 13:53, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Well this is where you are wrong. People in general are not as cynical as apparently you are. People are sentimental and have feelings and emotions and love the idea of naming a star even if it is not blessed by the IAU. The attempts by the IAU to stamp out this sentimental interest by the folks in naming stars has not succeeded. Oh and by the way 54% of respondents (common folk) in this survey by arrogant condescending astronomer said they would still buy a star even though it is not deemed official by astronomers [1]Glennconti (talk) 14:43, 4 August 2016 (UTC) Further, I believe the percentage would have been higher if the astronomer "in his white lab coat and with clipboard in hand (figuratively speaking)" had not tainted the study by implying non-scientific star naming was expensive in his survey questions. Glennconti (talk) 15:01, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Star Names – R. H. Allen's book

I decided to reinstate this section. It was deleted by a prior contributor on the grounds that it might be considered advertising. However, Star Names has long been the standard source and a mention of it could hardly be construed as advertising. In addition, given that it can occasionally mislead as well as illuminate, a discussion of its shortcomings seems appropriate here. Skeptic2 15:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

PS: And as there is an entry on it in Wikipedia I have added a link. Skeptic2 15:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

In order to support your statement (protecting from long-fingered policy warriors): Star Names: Their Lore and Meaning is a public domain source because of expired copyright, and yes: it is a standard source, verily! But I think the ISBN numbering should be in the references part, so that the book name can be in the text, but the ISBN numbering should be embraced by a <ref></ref> pair. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 10:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Did so ... said: Rursus (bork²) 10:49, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Allen's book, II

I think the mention of Allens book should be complemented by some mentioning of it's reliability. It's a standard work, yes, but it is considered unreliable by some ... gonna find srces somewhere ... as regards to ... eh ... most certainly the proposed Assyrian/Babylonian/Mesopotamian interpretations that Allen is providing, and maybe also the Chinese names. The general trouble is not Allen himself, but some sources that he relies on. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 19:23, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

No, Gary D. Thompson writes that:

For Western constellations and star names use of Richard Allen's Star-Names should be replaced with:

1. Planetarium Babylonicum, by Felix Gössmann (1950) (but now becoming outdated);
2. Egyptian Astronomical Texts, by Otto Neugebauer and Richard Parker (3 Volumes, 1960-1969);
3. Gestirnnamen bei den indogermanischen Völken, by Anton Scherer (1953);
4. (importantly) Le vocabulaire latin de l'Astronomie, by André Le Boeuffle (3 Volumes, 1973) (who traces both Greek and Babylonian antecedents for Latin constellation/star names); and
5. Arabische Sternnamen in Europa, by Paul Kunitzsch (1959);

and for star lore its use can be replaced with:

1. Mythen der Sterne, by Friedrich Norman (1925);
2. The New Patterns in the Sky: Myths and Legends of the Stars, by Julius Staal (1988); and
3. (importantly) Beyond the Blue Horizon: Myths and Legends of the Sun, Moon, Stars, and Planets, by Ed. Krupp (1991).

which essentially means that Allen is almost totally obsolete, with a possible exception of the Chinese star names. Possibly instead:

I. The Mesopotamian traditions - Akkadian/Babylonian mostly

II. The Mediterranean traditions - Mycenean (?) or Minoan (?) origins of the non-mesopotamian constellations

for some of these references. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 19:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Official Star Names?!

I take issue with the fact that the IAU has the exclusive authority to officially name stars and all others do not have this right or privilege. I have done some extensive searches and have not found a basis for this authority. First the IAU does not represent a majority of nations; it only has 74 member nations. I have seen a lot of misinformation. Second the IAU does not name stars so how can it be claiming the right to do so. Can someone please find some substantial references that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the IAU has undisputed exclusive authority to name stars? [2] Also some astronomers are saying they have the right by international treaty, total BS as far as I can tell. What makes the IAU any more official than any other organization? This article is saying the IAU is "official" - and private registries are "unofficial". Prove it.

Please sign your posts.

The article does not say that the IAU is 'official' and private registries 'unofficial', or that the IAU has exclusive authority to name stars. Though it's patently obvious that the IAU is extremely influential when it comes to the naming of stars and other celestial objects. Its pronouncements are overwhelmingly accepted by professional and amateur astronomers; educational institutions; writers of text books; the press; etc. Other bodies much less so. Any article on stellar designation is bound to give prominence to the IAU. The IAU does name stars and claims the right to do so. Indeed, if other organisations have the right to name stars, why shouldn't the IAU? Nevertheless, the article might do with some clarification (with references) on the nature and extent of the IAU's 'official' 'right' to name stars. Though who think so should make judicious edits! Cuddlyopedia (talk) 09:56, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

The article did indeed say that star naming by other entities is "unofficial" until I changed it. The IAU may have the right to name stars based on a significant ceding of that ability from scientists to its committees. But in no way is it an 'exclusive' right from all I can tell. For example, a lay astronomer in Fiji (not an IAU member country) should have every 'authority' to name a celestial body discovered by her for her deceased daughter if it is her choice based on historical discoverer's precedent. I am using this hypothetical example to undermine the IAU perceived EXCLUSIVE authority because I feel there might be wide agreement (even in the scientific community) that such an naming might be 'allowed' and even take hold in the press because it would be a compelling story. This lay person's naming might then become a common name that would then even be used in the scientific community. What would give the IAU the right to deny her her glory? By what authority? None as far as I can tell!

This article lists as a reference [3] an widely cited webpage (not a reliable source) published by the IAU that says they are the 'official' arbiter of naming, all others are 'unofficial' and indeed anyone who attempts to name a star is some kind of charlatan (a usurper of their power and authority). They disdain and ridicule anyone who would consider any other authority other than their own. To me this is arrogant beyond belief. What is the source of their exclusive authority?? They claim it so it is theirs. It is as simple as that. By what legal principle do they have this exclusive authority? Glennconti (talk) 12:14, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I find this questioning of the role and authority of the IAU perplexing. The IAU is astronomy’s international governing body and it governs by the consensus of astronomers around the world. A clear and complete statement of the IAU’s role can be found here: http://www.iau.org/about/. Perhaps I can pick out this quote as relevant to our discussion: “Among the other tasks of the IAU are the definition of fundamental astronomical and physical constants; unambiguous astronomical nomenclature; promotion of educational activities in astronomy; and informal discussions on the possibilities for future international large-scale facilities. Furthermore, the IAU serves as the internationally recognized authority for assigning designations to celestial bodies and surface features on them.” I hope this is now clear. Skeptic2 (talk) 14:02, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I dispute that the IAU represents a "consensus of astronomers". Astronomers have dissenting views [4]. And again the IAU does not even represent a majority of nations. How can this be considered a consensus? Also when you say "internationally recognized" that has very little meaning. If just two countries recognized the authority of the IAU it could be considered "internationally recognized", hardly authoritative. Would you say that the annexation of the Crimea by Russia is "internationally recognized" simply because Russia and it's allies condone this action? Again I am asking for a more rigorous inspection of their purported authority. Oh and thanks for the snarky comment "I hope this is now clear". Much appreciate! Glennconti (talk) 14:24, 4 August 2016 (UTC) Oh and further a small committee at the IAU unilaterally making naming decisions can hardly be considered a consensus. They do not even seek a majority vote from astronomers who are members. Not even democratic. Certainly not by consensus. Glennconti (talk) 14:55, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, astronomers have dissenting views, but they vote on proposals at the IAU General Assemblies. It’s called democracy. The proposals of the Working Group on Star Names will need to be approved by in the same way. As its web page makes clear, the IAU is a member of the International Council for Science (ICSU), which is the umbrella organization for the world’s scientific unions. Really, you can’t get more Gold Standard than that and any attempt to suggest otherwise is simply being perverse. One reason for the existence of organizations such as the IAU is to prevent the kind of free-for-all you are suggesting. Skeptic2 (talk) 15:17, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Ok I yield to your point that the IAU has a right to name celestial bodies given to them by astronomers who don't wish to assert their individual discovery rights. However, this is no way an exclusive right of the IAU. There is no way to prevent a "free-for-all". The United Nations has said that no country or organization shall have dominion over space. Why do you believe the system provided by the IAU is superior to other systems so much so that they get an exclusive right? They certainly aren't considering the needs of most people (common folks); they are only considering the needs of astronomers and the academic community. The interests of common people are being served by private companies and private catalogs. To have the IAU disparage and ridicule the needs of these people wanting to declare their love or memorialize a loved one is just plain arrogance. Glennconti (talk) 15:38, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Glenn, You may name any star what you wish. You may pay an organization to write its name in a book and give you a map showing where it is. You may create any number of new constellations and call them what you want. Just don't expect anyone else to take any notice. Cheers. Skeptic2 (talk) 16:14, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. I believe I have that right. And I also believe being disparaged and ridiculed for doing so is wrong. Private registries have every much a right to name stars as the IAU. Just because astronomers have ceded their right to name stars to the IAU does not mean that non-astronomers lose that right. Bottom line, you have not proved that the IAU is "official" where others are not. Glennconti (talk) 16:47, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

It's quite correct to say that anyone can name any star anything if they wish and that the IAU, as a non-governmental body, has no especial legal authority in this regard. What it does have is persuasive authority in that its authority and rulings are accepted by the overwhelming majority of professional astronomers. Its advantage is that the names it approves (generally it confirms names nominated by others) tend to be cited and used by professional and amateur astronomers, other astronomical and science organisations, educational institutions, book and blog writers, the media and governmental bodies. Names given by other people, not so much. That's why the article is dominated by the IAU. Cuddlyopedia (talk) 10:57, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. Your enlightened position is however different than that of the IAU. They maintain that they are the only source for naming celestial bodies. They denigrate and call all others charlatans and ridicule any one that would even consider naming a star at a private registry. This bullying attitude that they espouse then permeates the air because of their supposed authority and reliability. So much so that scientists, following or expanding upon their lead, smear private registries in the press calling them scams. Many private registries have been in business for decades, maintain excellent BBB ratings and overall delivering on their promises to their customers. They are not scams. I am happy that this article no longer unfairly characterizes these private registries and believe it is "ok" in its current form. Certainly the IAU deserves a prominent position in the area of stellar designation. However, they are bullies and are abusing their position. Writers should be aware of that and not buy in hook, line and sinker to everything they are selling. Glennconti (talk) 14:15, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

They are sort of scammy. A friend proudly showed me a certificate with "her" name, and was rather crestfallen when I pointed out that no one she didn't know pretty well would ever use it. Then too, these silly names show up in publicly-editable places like Wiki-sky, where they are a real nuisance. I have nothing against people shelling out money for emotional gratification, but I would as soon the results not appear in scientific venues. -- Elphion (talk) 17:27, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Well let me think of a way of responding, so if your girlfriend bought some cosmetics for like $20 (about the price of a star naming) that were endorsed by Jennifer Lawrence and she put them on and came to you feeling great about herself, you would feel justified in telling her she looks nowhere near as pretty as Jennifer Lawrence. She would be crestfallen and then you would say the cosmetics company is "sort of scammy" for using Jennifer Lawrence to sell the cosmetics? Who is the bad actor in this story? You or the cosmetics company? (Sorry, my response is imperfect I know. I will try and come up with a better analogy). How about this? Do you enjoy telling joyful young children there is no Santa Claus too? (No. Still not right. I need more time). How about Christians? Do you make a point when you see them to say there is no God? And all their mumbling about praying is a real nuisance? Glennconti (talk) 21:19, 5 August 2016 (UTC) And if you worked in a scientific venue you would as soon not have your Christian coworkers wear their crosses to work? Glennconti (talk) 21:53, 5 August 2016 (UTC) I guess priests are "sort of scammy" tooGlennconti (talk)

Yes, I tend to give honest opinions when asked. -- Elphion (talk) 04:03, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

As you say, it is your opinion. As far as "honest" goes, that is subjective. I don't want to get philosophical here but some time truth is in the eye of the beholder and crapping all over someone else's belief systems when they feel good about themselves hurts other people and sometimes pisses them off (in the case of religious beliefs). Maybe it is manners or tolerance of others or arrogance of confidence in one's own beliefs. You seem so certain that star naming by the IAU is somehow so much "true" or important or valid and some other organizations star naming which in your "opinion" is "false". I guess to you scientists and astronomers are your gods. Ha ha, if no one told you scientists are not infallible, their opinions are not paramount in all areas of discourse. Even in this area which you you feel they should be their purview, there is room for other ways of looking at things in the world. Respect for others, diversity of ideas, maybe you should think of others ideas as an biological ecosystem with genetic diversity. yes, I think this scientific metaphor is best for you to understand. An diverse ecosystem of ideas is better than a monolithic cloned single gene pool of ideas. Wouldn't you agree? Glennconti (talk) 12:30, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Further, the IAU's position of ridiculing lay people for naming stars with private registries, is reprehensible in my opinion. Who the heck do astronomers think they are that they can stomp on the feelings of folks and then blame the private registries for the damage they (the astronomers) cause. The private registries are doing things like consoling people who have lost a loved one and allowing them to feel better. What is the higher purpose here? Astronomers and scientists hear me. Please resist the temptation to act like a Nazi invading Poland when a lay person asks you to help them locate their star. The IAU in their FAQ has set a very poor example for you. It says "Chances are that they will either laugh their heads off" when professionals are ask about the private registry star name. In what world is it ok to laugh your heads off at sincere lay folk? Glennconti (talk) 13:26, 6 August 2016 (UTC) Remember the people want very much to do this (name a star for a loved one) and the IAU doesn't do it. Then you call the private registries scam artists.Glennconti (talk) 13:38, 6 August 2016 (UTC) Where is your compassion? Apparently this is all about the IAU's need to dominate and a lust for power. Disgusting really. Glennconti (talk) 13:44, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I think you're taking your critique of the IAU a little too far. One of the motivations behind its founding was to avoid the sometimes vicious conflicts that arose in the naming of celestial objects, especially the more significant ones (reading how Neptune got its name is an eye-opener). This is part of its very-worthy-but-boring standardisation work. Having lots of people giving different names to celestial objects cuts across this. Also astronomers, like most scientists, tend to be left of centre and suspicious of commercial enterprises. This is not helped by some of them (not all) being scams and over-promising. Further, they had a policy of not naming stars (possibly because the process costs them money), which they've now changed because of public pressure, of which the commercial enterprises are a symptom. The stellar naming guidelines include "names of all individuals are prohibited for bright stars, except for rare cases with demonstrated historical precedence and widespread international diffusion", so it seems they'll eventually move on to less bright stars and possibly even allow the public to nominate a star after a loved one. Why not? There's plenty of stars! I agree they sometimes come across as a little pompous; but oftentimes that's because it's an international organisation and most things they say are a compromise among people of differing cultures. Cuddlyopedia (talk) 14:40, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Ok, I understand the need to keep the peace in scientific circles and I understand better now the IAU's reasoning for trying to control the academic naming process. It's funny you say scientists are suspicious of commercial enterprises. I have seen this disdain from them for organizations with a profit motive on the internet blogs. It is a theme. But all people need to eat. Further, it seems from what you are saying the motivations of astronomers could be called into question too. Why the vicious fights in scientific circles over the names? Could it be that pride, glory, fame, intellectual bragging rights are their motivations? How is this more honorable then people merely looking to survive monetarily? No need to answer, it is a minor point. However, I do understand the IAU's need to exert some control in scientific circles (based on the infighting for glory by astronomers), but why the need to VILIFY private registries? It just is not called for. The private registries serve a function in society. Glennconti (talk) 15:21, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Declaration of interest

Please note that the poster here called Glenn Conti is named as the "contact person" for a company called Star Namer which recently issued this release http://www.pressreleaserocket.net/starnamer-declares-an-equal-right-to-name-celestial-stars/478977/ The arguments in the press release will sound familiar to anyone reading Glenn Conti's posts above. Skeptic2 (talk) 19:49, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

It is true I wrote the press release. But, that in no way invalidates the arguments presented here or in the press release. This article is dominated by the views of the IAU and astronomers and scientists in general. I have been trying unsuccessfully for six years to bring an alternative voice to this discussion. Please see the date of my original post on this talk page above. I have made no inappropriate edits to the article understanding my responsibilities as a Wikipedia editor. To be fair, if my voice is silenced then so should the voices of astronomers. Then where would this article be? Also, ad hominem attacks against me are not appropriate. There is a different point of view that should be considered in this area.Glennconti (talk) 23:28, 9 August 2016 (UTC)