Talk:Republic: Difference between revisions
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[[User:Stevewk|Stevewk]] 16:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC) |
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== Edit warring == |
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Would [[User:Stevewk|Stevewk]] and [[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] please stop edit warring over this article. As I see it, the current intro is far too long; I suggest most of it after the first paragraph should be moved to a section like "Definitions of 'Republic'". It strikes me that you are both behaving as poorly as each other - until you can both approach this in a polite, calm fashion without resorting to personal attacks, escalations to RfC etc., I suggest that you go and do something else, either some constructive editing elsewhere or a short, relaxing Wikibreak. When you return, please concentrate your efforts on making this article clear, concise and accessible to a lay-audience; perhaps you could work '''together''' on a mutually-acceptable draft article in your userspaces. Happy (calm) editing, --[[User:Yummifruitbat|YFB]] [[User talk:Yummifruitbat|<font color="33CC66">¿</font>]] 17:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:03, 25 October 2006
- See also
- Talk:Republic/Archive 1
- Talk:Republic/Archive 2
- Talk:Republic/Archive 3
- Talk:Republic/Archive 4 - (period: 1st half of March 2005) - Former "progress report" section; Mostly WHEELER and SimonP with classical definition of republic as central topic; see also: Wikinfo:Classical definition of republic; archived 22/04/05.
- Talk:Republic/Archive 5 - (period: March 2005) - Former section re. "protection"; continuation of the discussion of Archive 4; whether or not to combine "republic" and "republicanism"; Most SimonP and WHEELER, but also several others contributing; archived 22/04/05.
- Talk:Republic/Archive 6 - (period: late March/early April 2005) - Continuation of the previous ("Professionals speak on wheeler's behalf"); Australia (this is maybe more related with republicanism now); re-split republic/republicanism and related issues (most Francis and SimonP); archived 22/04/05.
- Talk:Republic/Archive 7 - (April/May 2005) - Contains Francis's draft of article, moved to article text, and Simon's version of "Republics in political science" section. Long discussion between Francis and Simon; shorter between Francis and Septentrionalis. Archived 6 May 2005.
- Talk:Republic/Archive 8 - (May 2005 - March 2006)
- Archive 9 to October 20, 2006
Definition of 'Republic'
- i am contending that the following should be added, as a footnote to the definition, especially in light of the John Adams quote, and also the Machiavelli qualification.
- In a republic, sovereignty is based on popular consent; and its governance is based on popular representation and control. A republic contrasts with a dictatorship or other autocracy, but not necessarily with a monarchy, if the latter be based on a body of fundamental law, usually embodied in a clearly delineated constitution. see the quote of John Adams in the second following paragraph. The presence of a king sitting on a throne need not automatically disqualify a constitutional monarchy from its inclusion as a de facto republic. In such a monarchy, as England/Great Britain following its Revolution of 1688-89, we find a "monarchy" in name only, since the government then came under popular consent and control, with executive authority strictly circumscribed, i.e., not absolute. Stevewk 22:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- That is one definition of republic, and yes, it ought to be mentioned. But it's not the usual one. If you ask any Brit whether the UK is a republic, he'll say, of course not, it's a constitutional monarchy. And if he advocates making the UK into a republic, he means abolishing the monarchy. This is the most common understanding of the term, and it ought to come first. The current lead paragraph does not make this clear enough, in fact. --Trovatore 22:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Trovatore. In modern usage "country without a monarch" is the principal meaning of "republic." john k 22:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- nobody's saying that's not the principal meaning. that's why i'm proposing it go in a footnote. and to Trovatore, you're right, the current first paragraph is a disgrace. it could hardly be more inadequately and just badly written. by the way, the UK IS a de facto republic, and has been since 1689, whether the average UK citizen believes it or not. Stevewk 23:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- A de facto republic, not a republic. --Trovatore 00:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- REREAD the proposed footnote. yes. Stevewk 01:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- OK, it actually does look more reasonable this time. But the first paragraph should say clearly that, in the common definition, a monarchy can't be a republic (even if it's a de facto republic). --Trovatore 01:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- well then, you're still not understanding me. a monarchy cannot be any type of republic if it is an absolute monarchy. a monarchy can and is a de facto republic if it is a constitutional monarchy. check these Adams' quotes:
- "there is no good government but what is republican. That the only valuable part of the British constitution is so; because the very definition of a republic is "an empire of laws, and not of men." That, as a republic is the best of governments, so that particular arrangement of the powers of society, or, in other words, that form of government which is best contrived to secure an impartial and exact execution of the laws, is the best of republics."
Thoughts on Government Apr. 1776 Papers 4:86-93
http://www.constitution.org/jadams/thoughts.htm
- "If Aristotle, Livy, and Harrington knew what a republic was, the British constitution is much more like a republic than an empire. They define a republic to be a government of laws, and not of men. If this definition is just, the British constitution is nothing more or less than a republic, in which the king is first magistrate. This office being hereditary, and being possessed of such ample and splendid prerogatives, is no objection to the government's being a republic, as long as it is bound by fixed laws, which the people have a voice in making, and a right to defend." (my emphasis -sk)
Quote by: John Adams,(1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President Source: Novanglus, in Boston Gazette, 6Mar1775, Adams Papers, V II, p. 314
- give up the ghost, my friends. makes no difference if the chief executive is a king or a president... the most accurate way to put it is: the British constitutional monarchy is, de facto, a republic. Stevewk 02:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- ...but not a republic. It doesn't matter whether you think it matters or not. --Trovatore 02:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- ok then, i'll go ahead and use "de facto" republic in a footnote, and i'm also going to rewrite the first paragraph, and incorporate the Adams' quote. Stevewk 16:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, I fail to see the improvement. Adams' use of the term (based on Johnson's use of the term), is two and a half centuries old, and it didn't take on. Today that use of the term is obsolete. That it is mentioned in the intro at all is maybe more than needed. If it takes more than half of the second paragraph of the intro, that is, imho, already slightly over the top. Expanding that to several paragraphs of the intro, enlarging the quote etc, is a further step backwards.
- Please see also Wikipedia:Lead section why this should better not evolve this way. --Francis Schonken 20:11, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- sorry, what I see is how mine is nothing but an improvement. "Lead section" includes nothing that would preclude anything i've written. that use is not "obsolete." i defy you to produce the dictionary def. that employs "obs." anywhere therein. this is simply a smokescreen, because you're taking this personally. you dont want me to have the rewrite, despite the fact that it's a huge improvement. you're probably embarassed that it took an "outsider" to come up with something genuinely worth including. you're exclusion of the words of one of the most credible sources to be found, a US founding father, on the grounds that those words are "old" (say, what?), look like positive proof of that to me. i dont want a war, but you're being ignorant about this, and provoking one. you refuse to educate yourself. mine is a clear attempt to compromise, which i did by burying most of my stuff in a footnote. then, you just go ahead and blank everything out. sorry, if you think i'm gonna roll over in the face of what appears (to me) to be sheer ignorance, you got another thing coming. and by the way, if this [see also Wikipedia:Lead section why this should better not evolve this way] was supposed to be some kind of threat, it too failed. i read it, and my rewrite qualifies hands-down as a legitimate lead. sorry, you're just flat wrong about this. Stevewk 21:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Re. ""Lead section" includes nothing that would preclude anything i've written" – Wikipedia:Lead section has:
- (from Wikipedia:Lead section#Provide an accessible overview:) "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article" (my bolding) - the version of the intro you propose is a step backwards both w.r.t. "briefly" as w.r.t. "most important points covered in an article".
- (from Wikipedia:Lead section#Length:) "As a general guideline, the lead should be no longer than three to four paragraphs" (my bolding) - you made it five, more than half of the content of the intro being more elaborated in the intro than in the body of the article.
- Re. "that use is not "obsolete."" – Nowadays, generally, the UK is not indicated as a "republic", neither is Belgium, etc. You defied me to provide a dicdef, how about the CIA World Factbook? – the definitions of "republic" and "monarchy" used there for listing countries by "governenment type" are mutually exclusive, in other words: none of the listed "republics" has a king or monarch as head of state, nor is any of the listed monarchies also indicated as "republic". --Francis Schonken 16:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Re. ""Lead section" includes nothing that would preclude anything i've written" – Wikipedia:Lead section has:
- this is just a refusal to consider my argument, esp. that my stuff is buried in a footnote, because you cant stand the idea of me having the rewrite. i dont need to qualify my argument any further. its all there, and you havent addressed it or refuted it. Stevewk 18:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- What other argument? I refuted your main argument. Of course I didn't refute the "conspiration theory"-like innuendo's you produced, they're not even arguments.
- Anyway, you didn't consider my argument regarding the "Lead section" guideline. That guideline makes it obvious that your changes aren't an improvement.
- Further, your contention "A republic contrasts with a dictatorship" is not sourced, please provide a reference if you want to see that included in the article. Note that Mobutu's Zaire was a "republic" under a "dictatorship";
- Re. "England/Great Britain following its Revolution of 1688-89, we find a "monarchy" in name only (etc)" – please provide reference for that description. The least that can be said is that this does not conform with Wikipedia's current verbiage of what happened after the Glorious Revolution, nor with what is usually understood by a constitutional monarchy. --Francis Schonken 18:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- more double-talk and escapist excrement. check this: "a republic contrasts with a "dictatorship" is not sourced." yeah, yeah. here's another one: "the sun rises in the east." you'd want that sourced too, right? go away. Stevewk 20:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- From CIA World Factbook: "Belarus: republic in name, although in fact a dictatorship" (my bolding).
- Above, neither John Kenney nor Trovatore agreed with you.
- Your contentions are largely unsourced and bring the intro section out of balance.
- Your arguments have been refuted, and you bring no new ones.
- Is there still anything you think that needs to be added to this discussion? --Francis Schonken 07:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- yeah, see this since you didnt read it the first time: more double-talk and escapist excrement. check this: "a republic contrasts with a "dictatorship" is not sourced." yeah, yeah. here's another one: "the sun rises in the east." you'd want that sourced too, right? go away. Stevewk 16:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Schonken guilty of knowingly filing false 3RR/sock puppet report
- for the full story on Schonken's menacing behavior, see :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Francis_Schonken.C2.A0.28talk.C2.A0.C2.B7.C2.A0contribs.29:_knowingly_filing_a_false_3RR.2Fsock_puppet_report
and note well...administrator's note that Schonken's report is "bogus." then see this article's History for his latest refusal to civilize up, by filing yet another amateurish reversion. Stevewk 16:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Schonken's Warpath
- from now on, i'm just going to leave these harrassments here without comment. there is no link to "SPAM", so we can now add 'delusional' to the list of his transgressions. also note that Schonken is =not= an administrator: Stevewk 16:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Your revert to a spamlinked version of Republic
Regarding your revert of 16:13, 25 October 2006 to the "Republic" article: Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia, as you did in Republic. Wikipedia is not a mere directory of links nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites that you are affiliated with, and links that exist to attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam policies for further explanations of links that are considered appropriate. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thank you. --Francis Schonken 16:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Schonken's Warpath II
- NPA on Republic talk page
With regards to your comments on Talk:Republic: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users." Please keep this in mind while editing. Thanks. --Francis Schonken 16:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Stevewk 16:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Edit warring
Would Stevewk and Francis Schonken please stop edit warring over this article. As I see it, the current intro is far too long; I suggest most of it after the first paragraph should be moved to a section like "Definitions of 'Republic'". It strikes me that you are both behaving as poorly as each other - until you can both approach this in a polite, calm fashion without resorting to personal attacks, escalations to RfC etc., I suggest that you go and do something else, either some constructive editing elsewhere or a short, relaxing Wikibreak. When you return, please concentrate your efforts on making this article clear, concise and accessible to a lay-audience; perhaps you could work together on a mutually-acceptable draft article in your userspaces. Happy (calm) editing, --YFB ¿ 17:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)