Talk:Hephthalites: Difference between revisions

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Indo-Europeans?

Pretty interesting while here Hephthalites are linked to Huns and at the Huns section, Huns are claimed to be Turkic origin. So, Hephthalites are Turkic origin or Indo-European? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.243.239.74 (talk • contribs) 06:40, 27 June 2006 66.243.239.74 (UTC)

Hephthalites were composed of three ethnic units. One (Xiyon) is of undetermined ethnicity, one (Uar) was surely proto-mongolic, and their ruling (Haital) clans were indisputably Indo-European.86.138.184.12 10:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup request

Statements with question marks in the article need to be resolved. -- Beland 09:48, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am no expert but I have spent the last 15 years researching the origins and effects of the Hephthalites (I have been too busy on this to look at their fate yet). But my time is limited, so I can only do a little at a time. Also it will be difficult because people editing with a little knowledge in between my edits can be worse than people editing with no knowledge. E.G. Linguistic affiliation has no baring on physical appearance -a nation can look more mongoloid than anything else and yet speak an indo-european toungue. E.G. Info gleamed from coinage can be a good guide, assuming the coin cataloguer really knows what he/she dealing with and isn't just in it for the business and can't tell the difference between Kushan, Kidarite, Hephthalite, Alchon, Nezak, Uar, and Hunas.

This gentlman makes a good attempt to surmise. http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/huns/huns.html but is not free from mistakes and generalizations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.116.86 (talk • contribs) 23:08, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category?

Should this be in Category:Huns? It is now, but I'm not sure that's correct, since the White Huns were not necessarily Huns per se. --Saforrest 15:18, 22 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hephthalite may have been Hazaras ancestors

Hazara ethnic people of Afghanistan were unknown to the world before because of Pashton suppression on them in last 200 years. and they were completly kept in dark, and they are still unkown to the world.

Hazara people has a very rich distint culture from other people in Afghanistan. They are proud, talented, hardworker and trusthworthy. There are claims that they are descendents of Gengis khan army, i beleive that is completly wrong and baseless. When Gengis khan arrived in Bamiyan in 12 century, Bamiayn locals resisted fiercley. The people of Bamiyan were like central asian as like Hazara looks at that time.

There are claims Hephthalite were Tajiks. Tajiks people distint come to existince in 10 century. How could they have been rulers in at that time. The same area were controled by Kushans. Then persian sassanid moved in and destroyed kushan empire in 2AD century. Tajiks of Tajikistan and Afghanistan are those who come in central asia with persian empire expansion over centuries.

Hazara people sites

http://www.hazara.net

http://www.hazaristan.net

http://www.hazara.org

http://www.hazaraworld.com

http://www.hazarapress.com

http://www.hazaristan.net

http://www.hazaragiradio.com

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaghouri (talk • contribs) 14:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

hazaras are a mongolian people who settled in afghanistan during the mongol invasions. they have no connection to the hephthalites.Khosrow II 14:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Khosrow, Hazaras are commonly known to be monglolian. Thats was evil British proganda tool against Hazara people. British installed monarchy in Afghanistan and waged war through monarchy against other ethnic groups in Afghanistan. As a result Hazara who were making 67% of total Afghanistan population, lost 60% of their population and lost lots of their land. It is started about 150 years to this day Hazaras and Pashtuns are bitter enemy in Afghanitan.

Another thing you should remember when Gengis khan arrived in Bamyan, Hazaristan capital, mongol armies faced fierce resistance and Gengis Khan grandon killed there. Gengis Khan ordered the city to be completly destroyed. The residents of Bamyan had also asian looks like mongols at the time before mongol arrival. No other ethnic group inhabit there with asian look at the region except Hazara people.

visit this website to understand more about Ethnic groups sttruggle in Afghanistan in the last 250 years: http:// — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaghouri (talk • contribs) 06:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Its true, the Pashtun are actually the descendants of the Persians according to linguistics. Kaz 15:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Some historian claims Pashtun are descendets of Lost Tribes of Isreal. It may be true when you consider them in their behaviour. Pashtun are very relegious, backward etc.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.186.1.192 (talk • contribs) 06:27, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What are you trying to say? Kaz 18:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Search for Pashtuns origins on the net, you will find half historians claiming Pashtuns to be ancestors of lost tribes of Isrealets and other half of the historians claim Pashtuns to be of Aryan race. Have a throughly look at Pashtun life and culture in this day, it will give you an idea where really they come from. Iranians claim to be from Aryan race, It is hardly belevieble to accept Pashtuns and Persians as one race.

Hazaras are most likely descendant of Mongols (there is nothing wrong with as I know many Hazaras and they are the best people I have met). But Hephtalites were not Hazaras. Also Pashtuns are a separate Iranian group and not necessary persian (tajiks). They speak Eastern Iranian language. There are some recent evidences that support Hephtalites being Pashtun. --alidoostzadeh 07:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hazara Vocabulary and DNA is proto-mongolic, and so it is anachronistic to call them descendants of the Mongols. They are the descendants of the Kidarite dynasty (who themselves came from the proto-Mongolic Huá (滑) who came under the control of the Rouran) who had conquered the Xionites in the early IVth century.Kaz 19:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Reportage vs Propaganda

I have noticed some hurt feelings starting to pop up over this article because of clearly nationalistic prides being hurt. Could we all please try to step out of ourselves and our nationalistic upbringings whatever thay may have been in order to look at the truth objectively. It is not good to get uppity and dispute things just because it goes against the official line adopted by whatever political party has most sway at any one particular time. This is what caused truth to suffer under the Nazis. Reporters have to be removed from politics, otherwise we simply become part of the propaganda machines.Kaz 16:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Huns and Kushans

Anyone can shed any light or point me to sources for information for the interaction between the Huns and the Kushan successor states in the Gandhara region. I have come across a source that reads the Turk-Shahi rulers of the Kabul region claimed descent from Kanishka. I was looking to expand that section but noticed that there is problem because they are dated to be the rulers until the Hindu-Shahi assumption of power c. 850 well after the Hun's overran and were repelled from the region. Did the Turk-Shahi merely re-emerge as rulers from a royal linegage of Katormans after the Hun were pushed out, or maybe after the collapse of the Sassanids? Or were they a Hun line making the claim of decent from a legendary figure?--Tigeroo 22:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These are two very good sources, but I am not sure if they can answer your question :)

Tājik 23:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Accuracy Dispute

The factual accuracy and neutrality are quite different issues. If there exists factual inaccuracy this should be proven first in the talk/discussion page, before putting the tag. Therefore, i'm removing the tag and replacing it with "POV-check" tag. E104421 15:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the exact quote from the source: The Language

There are numerous debates about Hephthalite language. Most scholars believe it is Iranian for the Pei Shih states that the language of the Hephthalites differs from those of the Juan-juan (Mongoloid) and of the "various Hu" (Turkic); however there are some think the Hephthalites spoke Mongol tongues like the Hsien-pi (3rd century) and the Juan-juan (5th century) and the Avars (6th-9th century). According to the Buddhist pilgrims Sung Yun and Hui Sheng, who visited them in 520, they had no script, and the Liang shu specifically states that they have no letters but use tally sticks. At the same time there is numismatic and epigraphic evidence to show that a debased form of the Greek alphabet was used by the Hephthalites. Since the Kushan was conquested by Hephthalites, it is possible they retained many aspects of Kushan culture, including the adoption of the Greek alphabet.

I hope this clarifies things, I taking the article back to its previous version.Khosrow II 15:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I formatted the section to match the source. There should be no more dispute anymore.Khosrow II 16:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You should give a reliable sources with its full adress, in order to make it verifiable. One more note, please write your comments more clearly, not in pov style. You erased other information given in the article and pushed your version. This is not the correct way of neutralizing the article. If you check the Britannica, what you'll see as follows:

Hephthalite Encyclopædia Britannica

"also spelled Ephthalite, member of a people important in the history of India and Persia during the 5th and 6th centuries AD. According to Chinese chronicles they were originally a tribe living to the north of the Great Wall and were known as Hoa or Hoa-tun. Elsewhere they were called White Huns or Hunas. They had no cities or system of writing, lived in felt tents, and practiced polyandry.

In the 5th and 6th centuries the Hephthalites repeatedly invaded Persia and India. In the middle of the 6th century under the attacks of the Turks they ceased to exist as a separate people and were probably absorbed in the surrounding population. Nothing is known of their language."

Regards E104421 16:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article sources, which has a link, says the language is thought to be Iranian by most scholars. Also, Brittanica does not have a final say on any issue, and secondary sources are just as good. I conformed the section to the source listed.Khosrow II 17:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, but the language link is weak. You should not push iranian claim. You already erased other sourced arguments given there. E104421 17:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didnt know this was Iranian: [2] Stop your POV push. The information in there was sourced, yours is not.Khosrow II 18:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Although i do not think that Khosrow II is kind enough to read or understand my comments, i'm writing for other wikipedians visiting this page. I never edited the article (no contribution to the text), but first commented about the factual accuracy here, then added the POV-check tag. After all, i observed the pov-push, reverts, accusations, deletion/removal of sentences in the article, i first commented and explained clearly in the talk/discussion page, then reverted the article (added the removed information back). The push is quite clearly seen from the bold text comment here, although the author of this statement claims the contrary (see just above: "I didnt know this was Iranian"). If this approach continues, i shall not relent this incivility. Regards E104421 18:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, the origin of the Hephthalites is not known. The old theory that they spoke the Bactrian language has been disproved by the documents of Bactria, ancient writings from the Hephthalite period found in Afghanistan. The documents also attest the use of Turkish royal titles, such as Khaqan and Yabghu. However, this is not a proof for the "Turkic theory" either, because royal titles do not necessairly point to the ethnic origin of a people. Besides that, "Yabghu" is not a Turkish word but - most likely - a Tokharian word.

All in one, their origin is not known. What we know for sure is that they differed from their Mongolian and Turkic neighbours by their looks. Ancient Chinese chronicles clearly differenciate between Turkic/Mongol and Hephthalites, putting the Hephthalites in the same cluster as their Indo-European neighbours.

They were probably a large confederation of different Central Asian peoiples - nomadic and urban - at some times ruled by an Iranian-speaking elite and later by a Turkic-speaking elite.

Tājik 19:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 96: / Line 96: @@
 ::::::Although i do not think that [[User:Khosrow II|Khosrow II]]  is kind enough to read or understand my comments, i'm writing for other wikipedians visiting this page. I never edited the article (no contribution to the text), but first commented about the factual accuracy here, then added the POV-check tag. After all, i observed the pov-push, reverts, accusations, deletion/removal of sentences in the article, i first commented and explained clearly in the talk/discussion page, then reverted the article (added the removed information back). The push is quite clearly seen from the bold text comment [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hephthalite&oldid=85487524#Accuracy_Dispute here], although the author of this statement claims the contrary (see just above: "I didnt know this was Iranian"). If this approach continues, i shall not relent this [[WP:civil|incivility]]. Regards [[User:E104421|E104421]] 18:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
+:::::: Indeed, the origin of the Hephthalites is not known. The old theory that they spoke the [[Bactrian language]] has been disproved by the ''documents of Bactria'', ancient writings from the Hephthalite period found in Afghanistan. The documents also attest the use of Turkish royal titles, such as Khaqan and Yabghu. However, this is not a proof for the "Turkic theory" either, because royal titles do not necessairly point to the ethnic origin of a people. Besides that, "Yabghu" is not a Turkish word but - most likely - a Tokharian word.
+:::::: All in one, their origin is not known. What we know for sure is that they differed from their Mongolian and Turkic neighbours by their looks. Ancient Chinese chronicles clearly differenciate between Turkic/Mongol and Hephthalites, putting the Hephthalites in the same cluster as their Indo-European neighbours.
+:::::: They were probably a large confederation of different Central Asian peoiples - nomadic and urban - at some times ruled by an Iranian-speaking elite and later by a Turkic-speaking elite.
+:::::: [[User:Tajik|Tājik]] 19:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)