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These issues have now been ''closed'' and moved to [[Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1]]. --[[User:Herschelkrustofsky|Herschelkrustofsky]] 03:32, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
== Zionism / Zionist ==


*"From the early 1970s LaRouche regularly used the word "Zionist" as a term of abuse." POV. LaRouche uses it to describe an ideology, particularly that of Jabotinsky, which he opposes.

*"In this article, LaRouche acknowledges that he accepts the classical anti-Semite conspiracy theory, with the caveat that he ascibes it to groups of Jews rather than to all Jews." LaRouche acknowledges no such thing, and certainly not in the cited passage. This is reasoning typical of those who trivialize anti-Semitism, by branding anyone who calls [[Meyer Lansky]] a gangster as an anti-Semite.

*"his criticisms of U.S. foreign policy are similar in many respects to those of the left, except that he blames its deficiencies on Zionist conspirators rather than on capitalist imperialism." POV spin-doctoring. LaRouche opposes Zionism (of the Revisionist sort), but he does not ascribe to it the authorship of U.S. foreign policy.


* "Although LaRouche has always denied accusations of [[anti-Semitism]], the word "[[Zionism|Zionist]]", the common extreme right codeward for "[[Jew]]" began to appear in LaRouche propaganda in the 1970s."

This is also propagandistic -- it may hold for some extreme right groups, but it does not hold for LaRouche, or any of the other many legitimate critics of Zionism. LaRouche also supports some Zionist currents, and has often referred to his friendship with Nahum Goldmann and his admiration for Yitzhak Rabin. I note that Adam chose not to include King's formulation that "British" is also a code word for "Jewish" -- perhaps that one is too over-the-top even for Adam. -- Herschel

:The whole "financier conspiracy" is rather redolent of anti-semitism. That said, this could and probably should be softened. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 03:35, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

::I don't in fact agree with everything King says. I do agree that Zionist is a code-word for Jew in LaRouche's writings, and it is understood to be so by his readers. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 04:03, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
:::And you know this -- how?--[[User:Herschelkrustofsky|Herschelkrustofsky]] 11:46, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

* ' "Zionist", the common extreme right code word for "Jew" '

:this is POV, and must be removed. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new '''Spade''']] 01:21, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I would agree with this. Although it can certainly be argued that ''LaRouche'' uses Zionist as codeword for Jew (although such would have to be supported), it is wrong to say that Zionist is ''always'' a codeword for Jew. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 01:30, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

''Of course'' Zionist is not ''always'' a code-word for Jew, and I didn't say it was. I said it is "the common extreme right code word for "Jew"," which is a fact that can be amply documented (see [[Zionist Occupied Government]] for example). [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 01:35, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

:Yes, I agree, but it currently seems to be saying that. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 01:41, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

How can you prove what he means when he says it? He seems pretty crazy from what I read here, maybe when he says "Zionist" he is actually refering to the beatles ;) [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new '''Spade''']] 01:50, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, it certainly can be argued with more precision than it is here - his entire conspiratorial worldview is strongly redolent of the ''[[Protocols of the Elders of Zion]]'', for instance. But you're right that we should be very careful about accusations of anti-semitism of this sort. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 02:15, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sam is correct that it is often impossible to know what LaRouche really means when he talks about Zionists. This is partly because he is deliberately obscure - he talks in riddles and metaphors to keep his enemies guessing. Quite possibly he doesn't know himself. We can only quote what he says and point out how these words and phrases are ''usually'' meant. And it is a fact that ''most'' people who talk about international bankers conspiracies and how Zionists rule the world ''are'' anti-Semites. If this is not LaRouche's view of the world he should say so. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 02:22, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
:So, Adam, you put words in LaRouche's mouth, and then the burden of proof is on him to demonstrate that he doesn't think that way. This is pure, unbridled violation of NPOV. --[[User:Herschelkrustofsky|Herschelkrustofsky]] 05:12, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
::''Riddles, no. Metaphors, yes. And if you have difficulty understanding him, recuse yourself.''
:Adam is right. Those who are prominently anti-Zionist are often also people who are generally accused of being anti-Semitic (and prob. correctly). On the other hand that by no means everyone who has "anti-Zionism" as one of his or her key issues is therefore an anti-Semite. This "keyword" bit could be much better phrased elsewhere, I suspect (prob on [[anti-Semitism]]). From what I read here this guy seems to be perhaps the most duplicitous and misleading politician who is readily available, and that is saying ALOT ;). I frankly doubt we can provide much insight into what he means by what he says, and would prob be best off sticking to the text of his statements, rather than any particular judgments of them. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new '''Spade''']] 02:48, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
::I agree entirely that we should quote LaRouche, without speculating about what he may mean, or extrapolating coded messages, or any of the other techniques that form the core of Dennis King's book, and consequently, Adam's article. --[[User:Herschelkrustofsky|Herschelkrustofsky]] 05:12, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I am perfectly entitled to point out what is usually meant by people who talk about Zionist conspiracies. I am not interested in responding to Herschel's wild allegations, which reflect badly only on him. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 05:22, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

:Then, point it out in an article on Zionist Conspiracies. If you can't quote LaRouche, I am entitled to wonder how you know what he is thinking. --[[User:Herschelkrustofsky|Herschelkrustofsky]] 10:35, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I don't think it is useful to interpret what others mean in this way. Of course you are right in many circumstances, but you can't fairly suggest it in the sweeping way in which you do, nor can you specifically prove that is what LaRouche means when he says it. Lets allow him to speak for himself, that his own words may condemn or redeem him before the reader, rather than providing our own translation of them. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new '''Spade''']] 17:44, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

:That "Zionist" is the common extreme right code-word for "Jew" is (a) a fact and (b) relevant to the topic under discussion. I didn't say that everyone who uses the word Zionist means it in an anti-Semitic way. If I say "The Zionists had no right to colonise Palestine," that is clearly a legitimate use of the word. If I say "Zionist bankers rule the world," that it is clearly using Zionist as a code word for Jew. This is necessary information for readers who are being presented with a discussion of LaRouche's writings. It is an encyclpaedia's job to ''explain'' things to readers, not just dump primary sources on them. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 23:55, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

::However, Adam uses this argument to cover for the fact that he is simply lying. And as for Dennis King, his first, and most honest attack on LaRouche was an article in ''High Times'' entitled "They want to take your drugs away."--[[User:Herschelkrustofsky|Herschelkrustofsky]] 00:08, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

----

Sam's wording: ''The use of "Zionist" (seen by some as a code word for "Jew") is a common practice of certain groups [http://www.sweetliberty.org/][http://www.gentileworld.com/]. ''

The problem with this is that a sentence with a subordinate clause in brackets has to be meaningful if that clause is removed, and the statement: ''The use of "Zionist" is a common practice of certain groups'', while true, is meaningless. Secondly, placing ''seen by some as a code word for "Jew"'' in brackets makes it incidental, whereas it is in fact central, to the point of the sentence. Thirdly "some" and "certain groups" are vague and weasely - why don't we say what we mean? Fourth references in the body of the text are ugly. What exactly is Sam's problem with the sentence as it stands? [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 02:19, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

:the way you had it made him look like an anti-semite. He might be, or he might just be anti-english, or maybe just out of his mind generally, etc.. The way I put it is allows the reader to see what other sorts of folks use the term in this way, and lets them know that some consider this sort of use anti-semitic. I think that allows the reader to make up their own mind, or at least have food for thought (rather than having the conclusion fed to them). [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new '''Spade''']] 02:43, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The previous wording stated two facts: 1. In the 1970s LaRouche began making various statements about Zionist conspiracies etc , 2. that the use of the word Zionist in this sense is hallmark of anti-Semites. Do you dispute either of these facts? If not, let's just state them and let readers draw their own conclusions. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 03:19, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

::In the 1970s the LaRouche organization published an issue of the ''Campaigner'' with a cover story entitled "Zionism is not Judaism." This also might be relevant to the discussion. --[[User:Herschelkrustofsky|Herschelkrustofsky]] 06:40, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

:It looks fine now, good edit. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new '''Spade''']] 04:17, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

:Well I'm glad that's cleared up. Nothing like a bit of co-operative editing, I always say. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 05:39, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

* "From the early 1970s LaRouche regularly used the word "Zionist" as a term of abuse. The use of "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew" is a common practice among anti-Semitic groups."

* "The use of "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew" is particularly noticeable in the 1978 publication by the LaRouche organisation entitled Zionism is not Judaism."
:I think that this sentence is someone's idea of a joke. --[[User:Herschelkrustofsky|Herschelkrustofsky]] 21:32, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Deliberate fallacy of composition -- in 1978, the LaRouche organization published a feature article in ''Campaigner'' entitled "Zionism is not Judaism." - Herschel

:need more info before I can comment

::I agree that this part is still problematic. I think it needs to be mentioned that discussion of Zionist conspiracy theories is an extraordinarily common feature of post-1948 anti-semitic literature, and that LaRouche's own comments about Zionism share many similarities with such works. At the same time, we shouldn't say that LaRouche is an anti-semite. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

== Zionist lobby ==

14. "LaRouche also claimed that the "Zionist lobby" controlled the U.S. government and the United Nations."

Utterly false. LaRouche has accused the "Zionist lobby", by which is meant principally AIPAC and allied organizations, of pursuing a policy that is harmful to both Israel and the U.S. He has never asserted that they control the U.S. government, let alone the United Nations, which has often passed resolutions that displease AIPAC. -- Herschel

:He's certainly said things of this nature, although as I recall his favorite punching bags are much more a "world bankers' conspiracy" abetted by the British royal family. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What LaRouche has said, is that the so-called Zionist Lobby -- which is not some arcane conspiracy, but rather organizations like AIPAC -- is itself controlled by more powerful interests, that care nothing for the welfare of Jews or the state of Israel.--[[User:Herschelkrustofsky|Herschelkrustofsky]] 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

:need more info before I can comment

== Jews and the slave trade ==

13. "In NCLC publications during the 1970s the Jews were accused of running the slave trade, controlling organized crime and the drug trade."

LaRouche has never accused "the Jews", nor any other ethnic or religious group, of running orcontrolling anything. He has accused Jewish-surnamed individuals such as [[Meyer Lansky]] with trafficking in narcotics, just as he has accused non-Jewish-surnamed individuals. He has never characterized "the Jews", or any other ethnic group, as controlling anything.--[[User:Herschelkrustofsky|Herschelkrustofsky]] 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

:It's certainly documentable. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

::I think the evidence is against you on this Hershell

Great. Cite some. --[[User:Herschelkrustofsky|Herschelkrustofsky]] 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)


* "LaRouche's principal target in this article is "Zionism," to which he attributes almost every conceivable type of evil." POV -- this is Adam letting his propagandistic flair get the better of him.

* "When LaRouche accuses "Zionists" of treason and conspiracy, he is therefore seen by Jews, and many others, to be levelling those accusations against most Jews. When he accuses organisations such as B'nai B'rith and the ADL, and many individual Jews, of various crimes, he is seen to be attacking the great majority of Jews who support those organisations and those individuals, particularly since he attributes to them the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination." POV speculation. If you know of someone who actually believes these things, quote them.

* "In this sense LaRouche can fairly be described as having been an anti-Semite in 1978, when this article was published. He has never explicitly repudiated the views expressed in this article." First of all, the "in this sense" part is a theory that Adam arrives at through the most tortured logic, and has no place in an encyclopedia article. Secondly, LaRouche and his organization have in fact explicitly repudiated the views on Zionism expressed in the 1978 article: he has acknowledged [[Labor Zionism]] as a constructive force, exemplified by Ben-Gurion or Rabin, in contradistinction to the [[Revisionist Zionism]] of the Jabotinskyites/Likudniks (see [http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2001/2849rabin_v_sharon.html],and [http://www.schillerinstitute.org/conf-iclc/2001/pres_day/hcs.html#hcs].)

* "There is even a word of praise for Walther Rathenau, an archetypal Jewish business figure of the kind so savagely denounced by LaRouche throughout his career." Innuendo -- give me one example of a "Jewish business figure" that was savagely denounced by LaRouche.

Revision as of 03:32, 11 October 2004

These issues have now been closed and moved to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1. --Herschelkrustofsky 03:32, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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