Talk:Cool (African aesthetic)

ANYBODY WANNA WRITE ON "COOL"?

I came to the "Cool" page after editing a page on Joe Zawinul -- but I was disappointed. This deserves more than a "disambiguation" page. "Cool" is a complex aesthetic with its roots in Africa, one that has transformed American popular culture. I've got no time right now. Anyone else like to try their hand at a decent piece? Please! -- deeceevoice

I like this definition, although I think you should say African-american culture.CSTAR 15:53, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC) While I appreciate the fact that you took the time, why did you bother? I feel your contribution trivializes "cool" by treating it as a one-dimensional term --and then you direct the reader to a discredited work. What's up with that? I thought to delete your last statement, but thought better of it, having no time to write anything more thoughtful myself. Further, "cool" is definititely African in origin -- like blue notes in jazz, like much of African-American culure. I still don't have time, but I'll come back to this. Hopefully, there will be other, more substantive contributions in the interim. Peace. deeceevoice 07:56, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I appreciate your comments, and take your point about the questionable reference, although that reference is not necessarilly bad just that it can't be taken as a scholarly refernce. But I do still think refering to it as African-American is correct, and there is a lot of scholarship on African-American culture which could be relied on here. Although I am quite not sure I see how cool is a one dimensional concept in this way. But perhaps I should remove the last sentence -- my intention though was this - cool was a specific irreproducible phenonenom of African-American society against racism and economic oppression. Take that away and the essence of cool is gone. CSTAR 13:37, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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I deleted the quote from MacAdams. I deleted the last sentence. I didn't delete the reference, because I thought it is preferable to have a reference section even though the only current reference may not be a scholarly one. CSTAR 14:26, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

If "cool" existed in Africa (and exists still) as an aesthetic before European incursions as an intrinsic part of certain cultures, how can it be narrowly defined as something reactionary? The essence of "cool" has nothing to do with white folks! But I guess we're operating from different knowledge bases -- or we're just talking past one another. At any rate, I'll return to this in a week or two, when I have time. I've changed the text back to the Africa reference. It is, indeed, accurate. Thanks for your contributions. And, yes, I agree that the reference should remain, but the quote should have been disappeared. Without qualification, it treats "cool" as simply a label related to fads, which is, indeed, trivializing it. Peace. deeceevoice 01:57, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC) Thank you.CSTAR 02:21, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC) [edit]

uncool

So far, you've been talking about who owns cool. That's not very informative and not very cool.

Nope. No one has discussed "ownership." "Origin," "ownership." There's a difference. deeceevoice 18:15, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Go home"?

The verb "kul" means "to go home" in the West African language of the Dagaaba and is not related to "cool" and its usuage. (unattributed comment)

Sorry, but you're mistaken, but it's somewhat understandable. Your comments/edits point to the fact that we're speaking of two separate things. Further, I never said "cool" had a cognate-word/homonym counterpart in any West African language, and I certainly didn't specify, among the many hundreds -- and, possibly, thousands -- of possible tongues/dialects, Dagaaba. (Further, even if there were a cognate counterpart, how would you know -- unless you're familiar with them all? It seems somewhat presumptuous.) I wrote that there is a parallel concept-word linkage. Another Wiki user indicated to me in another discussion that this article should be separated --and now I think he is correct. There is a cool aesthetic that is a distinct part of West African culture, and then there are certain limited concepts that parallel English-language usage of the word "cool." I'll make the division/separation when I have more time. deeceevoice 17:50, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I'm going ahead and creating an article on Cool specifically as an aesthetic. I'll be transferring the relevant portions of this piece to that one -- and you can do what you will with what's left of this one. (I think this should be a disambiguation page, but I'm not quite certain how to do that. deeceevoice 17:58, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It worked. This is now a disambiguation page. I've created a separate page devoted exclusively to cool as an aesthetic with roots in West African culture. I have copied the discussion herein to that article's discussion page. deeceevoice 18:27, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

pathetic

maybe somebody should read what is meant by aesthetic. Cool is something more like slang than some artistic expression. I find it no surprise that a long time ago that the author also wrote a long treatise on the simple cuss word "motherfucker," as if all African Americans are too busy offering these base things into pop culture and try to elevate them into some artistic status. Really pathetic. [Note: another anonymous "contribution" by a puerile mental cretin who engages in vandalism of user pages because he can't hold his own in a civilized discussion. Weak. Pathetic. Coward. deeceevoice 14:31, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)]

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What is pathetic is your arrogant ignorance. In your cluelessness, you assume that because you're unfamiliar with something it's simply a fabrication -- because I couldn't possibly know something you don't -- not even about my own culture. Typical arrogance. And "all African Americans"? Only mental cretins make assumptions about all anything. You shouldn't project your small-mindedness onto others. You come off looking like an even bigger jackass.

And regarding "motherfucker," I didn't start the article; I merely corrected it. I suppose you have similar putdowns for white folks who write articles on subjects you deem inane -- or is it just black folks you turn your attention to? Don't waste your time. I don't give a shyt what you think. You're nothing but a weasel. You don't even have the guts to sign your posts. *x* deeceevoice 00:08, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

your "analysis" of the aesthetic of cool being somehow rooted in popular culture (which happens to be only partially infused with African American culture) is COMPLETE BULLSHIT. There are SO many aspects to the word cool as being hip and to what it describes, its progression over the years, socially accepted cools, revolutionary cools, modern cools, and so many more. The best you could do here is make up some shit about black people? This article has a lot of re-writin' to do. Lockeownzj00 02:40, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ah. So, the weasel identifies himself? *snicker* "[My]'analysis' of the aesthetic of cool being somehow rooted in popular culture..."? Basic reading comprehension: "Cool is a complex aesthetic of motion and interval, of tension and tranquility, of juxtaposition and coexistence, that has its roots in various West African cultures [emphasis added]." Try again. I don't presume that my writing is flawless, but belligerence and abject ignorance frontin' like knowledge certainly can't touch it. When you can explain how "juxtaposition and coexistence" applies to, say, African dance and then to, say, Ray-bans -- then maybe you'll be ready to edit my definition. Until then, perhaps you should stick to really heavyweight subjects like Star Wars or the Forces of Evil.  :-p deeceevoice 07:46, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In perusing my user page to make sure I caught all the vandalism by the above "contributor," I came across something I wrote earlier: "All too common on Wikipedia, I encounter a mind-set of arrogance and often ill-informed presumption when it comes to discussion of topics related to African-Americans/black folks...." No kidding. :-p deeceevoice 17:07, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hey, guess what--If you lookd at the edit history, I'm not the anonymous person.

It's great that youre fascinated by black culture, but you take it too far--you inject it into everything. Surely it has had a gigantic influence but if we were talking animals would you make a point to say, "not only are there animals around the world, there are animals IN BLACK CULTURE, and IN AFRICA?"

It does not have its roots in black culture. As if people from previous societies were inapable of defining a concept of someone who is has style, or is very popular? Ah yes, people only started being "cool" in the later centuries, right?

The point is, this idea that it's ROOTED in black culture is false. RELATED, yes.

Haha, i like the little jabs at "heavy-weight edits." Are you also a member of the community of ultimate condescension (tm)? Ah yes, your "higher education" and your "more important" articles. I spend my time writing paper smost of the time on social phenomenon, and they are POV, so they do not fit on wikipedia. I do not take on huge things like this becuase it could easily turn into something that you are doing--baseless.

And if you bothered to read anyhting about me, you'll notice I'm not racist in the least, nor am I a racist in denial. I AM however one who does not cower to say there is such a thing as REVERSE racism and REVERSE bias (in our traditional sense of black vs white in american society) and both are EQUALLY horrid.

Do not try to say that this is because it is about blacks. Unlike some ignorant folks I don't edi tthings saying "die nigger." I am often the voice of equality when it comes to such things. If I see something POV I point it out, regardless of what the topic is. Lockeownzj00 19:57, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Interesting that you claim you're not the same individual as the anonymous poster. Yet, the tone and format of your posts has been identical to his -- including beginning with a lower-case letter (until this last one). And your charge that I'm some how preoccupied with black people and black culture is echoed in the puerile vandalism I recently reverted on my user page. Just curious coincidences -- right? Okay. I'll play along. For argument's sake, let's say you and he are not one and the same.

Properly tracing a concept to a particular point of origin has nothing to do with being "fascinated" by a particular culture. Let me ask you something, Lockeownzj. How is it you are so certain that cool is not an aesthetic and that it does not have West African roots? Why are you so adamant about something (to the point of belligerence) about which you apparently know so little? Do you think you know everything? What's that about? deeceevoice 20:24, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

let's analyze your statements: first you're still convinecd i'm the anon. Look at the history--just look at it. That's all you have to do. I don't have to lie there. Luckily, wikipedia has changelogs.

Why are you so adamant about something (to the point of belligerence) about which you apparently know so little?

Wow. How do I respond to this? This is such an ignorant statement. Your basis of my "knowing so little" is that I said your african roots theory was wrong. To the point of belligerence? Have you SEEN your own posts? When people disagree with you, nay, when they DARE to DISSENT, you retaliate with a slew of insults of "patheticness," "cowardess," and everything else. Your paragraphs reek of condescension. "Ok, i'll play your game." "of which you know so little." It's like you are trying to be disagreeable.

So, without actually arguing factually you have merely stated that you are annoyed that i disagreed with you.

Now, tell me how African culture has any effect on the "cool" of, let's say, any ancient society that did not have contact with Africa? Did the original chinese tribes have no concept of cool? Did the Europeans, who knew of Africa's existence yet treated it as otherwise, have simply a void where "cool" would be? This African roots thing comes completely out of nowhere.

How is it you are so certain that cool is not an aesthetic and that it does not have West African roots...Do you think you know everything? What's that about?

I'm sorry, but it is so irksome when ALL someone can do is, rather than retort, essentially take what the other is saying and say, "well why dont YOU do it?!" Let me throw your own logic back at you: "how are YOU so certain about cool as an aesthetic? DO you think you know everything?" Once again, rather than argue, or debate, or discuss, even, on a point-to-point basis, you are making generalizations that scream, "stop disagreeing with me.

Lockeownzj00 01:31, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

First, briefly, regarding etiquette, you seem incapable of noticing that I've merely been responding in kind. Martin Luther King I'm not; I do not turn the other cheek. You step to me with crap, don't whine when you get no respect.

Secondly, you're not only ignorant, arrogant and presumptuous, you're lazy! I'm not here to be your personal tutor on African or African-American culture. Your computer has a search engine. Use it. I'm certain you'll find plentiful information relatively easily -- if it is information you truly seek, rather than validation of your own obtuseness. Then come back to Wikipedia and tell me cool is not an aesthetic rooted in West African cultures. deeceevoice 06:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Are you completely blind to the fact that you have come off as totally hostile? Notice how I did not say, "I dont know that it is and I can not find the proper time to research." What I am saying is you are a blatanly Afrocentric author. This has nothing to do with racism--you let this bias get into all of your work.

You have to date still no proof of this, you have still not show any evidence, and only repeated very vague arguments about my obtuseness. Every part of the world is very important in its own way. One thing that is true, however, is that the world does nto revolve around Africa and its peoples as you seem to think. All continents and all peoples effect each other, Africa OR people who happen to hav ea brown skin color are in no way the holy grail of the universe, NOR are those with any other pigment.

I don't want respect. And if you are hostile, that is one thing--but to be hostile and to CLAIM that you are being conversational, or even kind, is a lie.

So. I put the question out in the public forum again. How, pray tell, did Africa and its indigenous population invent time travel, make itself ubiquitous across the span of time, and effectively introduce the subconscious concept of "cool" to all races and human beings? It would be fascinating to know. Lockeownzj00 03:35, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Who said anything about being "conversational" or "kind"? lol You're kidding -- right? Do some research, and then maybe I'll have something to say to you. Of course, rather than take some initiative for your own education, you can always sit around and wait for someone else to enlighten you. deeceevoice 03:51, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)