::::I note that Adam has participated in today's discussion and I take this opportunity to ask if he intends to provide any verifiable sources for his wording in the Head of State section. His opinion of what went on in the minds of the framers of the Constitution is clearly something that cannot be supported, as those debates were well reported at the time and subsequently by many commentators, Quick and Garran, Alfred Deakin and many others publishing books about the momentous events. [[User:Skyring|Skyring]] 03:16, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
::::I note that Adam has participated in today's discussion and I take this opportunity to ask if he intends to provide any verifiable sources for his wording in the Head of State section. His opinion of what went on in the minds of the framers of the Constitution is clearly something that cannot be supported, as those debates were well reported at the time and subsequently by many commentators, Quick and Garran, Alfred Deakin and many others publishing books about the momentous events. [[User:Skyring|Skyring]] 03:16, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have no intention of playing any more of your games. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 04:09, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Skyring has repeatedly accused me of deliberately misquoting the Constitution. Here is section 2 of the Constitution, cut-and-pasted from the Parliamentary website.
2. A Governor-General appointed by the Queen shall be Her Majesty's representative in the Commonwealth, and shall have and may exercise in the Commonwealth during the Queen's pleasure, but subject to this Constitution, such powers and functions of the Queen as Her Majesty may be pleased to assign to him.
Now: does Skyring dispute that this is indeed the text of the Constitution? Does he deny that the Constitution says that (a) the Queen appoints the Governor-General and (b) the Governor-General is the Queen's representative? Given these two things, in what capacity does the Queen appoint the GG? And in what capacity is the Queen represented by the GG? If Skyring wants to deny that it is the capacity of head of state, he has to tell us what other capacity could it possibly be. Adam 01:11, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You stated that the Constitution says something it clearly does not. You said "the fact is that the Constitution says the GG is the Queen's representative". This is not a fact. It is incorrect.
"SHALL BE HER MAJESTY'S REPRESENTATIVE" WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU? CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND PLAIN ENGLISH? Adam 02:02, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Calm down, Adam. Please. You misquoted the constitution, as I pointed out above. I've quoted the exact words you used. In the same breath you accused me of circular arguments, and I asked you to provide examples, none of which have been provided. However, none of this seems to be getting us anywhere. Others have provided useful directions on how to proceed, and frankly I think you should either keep out of the discussion for a while or try to aim for a more professional manner. Skyring 03:18, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I believe I am entitled to complain if you misquote the Constitution to suit your own purposes. Maybe you think the difference is minor, but if so, then why not use the actual words of the document? You can hardly be mistaken after several corrections, including an extended discussion on this very point in another article so I ask what is your purpose in deliberately misquoting the Constitution?
I suggest that you should really answer a few of the questions I put to you before demanding I answer yours. Be fair. Skyring 01:36, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I said: "the Constitution says the GG is the Queen's representative." The Constitution says: "A Governor-General appointed by the Queen shall be Her Majesty's representative in the Commonwealth." How is that a misquotation??? I really have no idea what you are talking about. Adam 03:26, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It's a misquotation because the words you used are not in the Constitution. Keep going. Skyring 03:46, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I see. Such stupidity from someone of some evident intelligence is sad to see. Adam 04:05, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It's not a misquotation, it's a paraphrase, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Otherwise we would just copy the text of the Constitution and not write articles. --Michael Snow 04:00, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It's a misquotation. Adam says it is a fact that the Constitution says words it does not. He should either use the literal text if he wishes to quote it, especially if he is insistent that it is factual to the extent of boldfacing his words, or use a form of speech which makes it clear that he is paraphrasing. This is standard academic practice and I must say that I am quite upset by the unprofessional behaviour displayed by Adam recently. Skyring 05:51, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fine. "The executive power of the Commonwealth is vested in the Queen and is exercisable by the Governor-General as the Queen's representative, and extends to the execution and maintenance of this Constitution, and of the laws of the Commonwealth." That's in chapter II: The Executive Government. See [1]. What Adam said. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:12, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
But it's not what Adam said. You will also note that the executive power is exercisable by the Governor-General and is clearly not one of the delegated powers under s2. He is also in ss5, 64 and others given powers directly, rather than by the Queen or through some "flow-on" mechanism, such as we see in New Zealand and Canada. Again I urge you to read a constitutional text - this is pretty basic stuff. Skyring 07:31, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well I'm upset (really pissed off actually) by your deliberate obfuscation and timewasting, your dishonesty, your malicious misrepresentation of other people arguments, your rampant vanity and egotism and your general obnoxious fuckwittedness, so get used to it. Adam 05:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Moving on to unprotection
I think we should be able to get past this often circular discussion and reach a consensus. Several people have indicated they think we have a consensus already, and I agree that we're pretty close to it. I suggest that it's possible we could get general agreement on the following points:
The Queen is head of state in the usual sense of that title, but the title is not actually used in the Constitution. The Governor-General acts as her representative, exercises the powers associated with the position, and is often accorded the type of recognition given a head of state, especially in the diplomatic context. The article covers this reasonably well; some of the finer details belong in the head of state article, where they are adequately explained already.
The article used to start with the sentence: "Australia is a constitutional monarchy, a federation and a parliamentary democracy." These are all basic characteristics that should be introduced at the beginning of the article. Why it was considered necessary to remove this sentence, I'm not sure, since I haven't seen anything to indicate that any of these assertions are seriously disputed.
None of them were. However, it was also added that Australia is a republic! - Ta bu shi da yu 05:59, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The notion that Australia is also, or effectively, a republic, might be mentioned at the end of the "Structure of the government" section, where the material on the republican movement currently is. An easy way to do this would be to quote Howard's "a crowned republic" line. To go beyond this would be lending excessive credence to the argument.
Using this as a general outline, I would like the article to be unprotected, and I think we can hammer out exactly how we want to express these points by collaborative editing in the usual fashion. It should be simple enough to revert edits that contradict the consensus view. --Michael Snow 04:53, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree with that course of action. The sentence "Australia is a constitutional monarchy, a federation and a parliamentary democracy" was only disrupted by Skyring's egotistical insistence on inserting his own pet theories in the opening paragraph. It should be restored. Adam 04:58, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Adam that this is an excellent solution. Go for it. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:59, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Adam, please. We would all get on a lot better if you weren't quite so prickly. You removed the sentence IIRC, and I have no objection to its reinstatement in its original form. We had actually come to an agreement over this, if you look back. John Howard's 1997 quote on "a crowned republic" should be included. I think it was Bagehot who originally coined the phrase, but I must admit that I find it hard to swallow its application to the 18th Century United Kingdom. However, it is an apt description of Australia with our combination of republican form of government and the symbolic but powerless monarch.
My difficulty lies in the description of the Queen as head of state. Adam says it is convention, but the only convention he quotes in the article is that expressed by Howard to the opposite effect, and I quote: "As a matter of undisputed constitutional convention, the Governor-General has become Australia’s effective head of state."
I have quoted the views of several constitutional authorities, and the opinion that either the Queen or the Governor-General is the one and only head of state is a minority position, with most informed commentators inclining to the "two heads of state" view, using various words such as "defacto", "ceremonial", "effective" and so on to prefix the phrase "head of state". Clearly there is no consensus of opinion, and the conflict rages in genteel fashion in magazines such as Quadrant.
I also take expetion to the description of the Governor-General as merely the Queen's representative. The degree to which he represents the Queen and her government has been declining since Federation. Unlike other dominions such as New Zealand and Canada, the Governor-General does not draw any but the most trivial powers from the Queen - he is given his powers directly in the Constitution by we the people, and this is the single most republican aspect of our affairs. Quick and Garran pointed this out at Federation in their massive work of constitutional commentary.
He was given them in his capacity as the Queen's representative, that much is perfectly clear. At any rate, this evades the central point - that the Governor-General is not a democratically selected head of state and thus Australia is not a republic. Lacrimosus 07:33, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Just how do you define "democratically selected"? Many republics have appointed heads of state. In fact in the republic model rejected in 1999, the President would have been selected by the Prime Minister, which is exactly what happens now with the selection of the Governor-General. There was to be a nominations committee, but that was to meet in secret and its recommendations were not binding on the Prime Minister - he could have nominated whoever he wanted and if the disgruntled members of the committee complained that this wasn't their nomination, they would have been guilty of an offence. As it stands in Australia, the leader of the majority party or coalition selects the Governor-General. Skyring 08:02, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Skyring is correct. We are still not a republic, as our head of state is still the Queen (shared with GG). - Ta bu shi da yu 20:23, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
We have heard your views on these topics ad nauseam. We have decided that we don't agree with you. We are now proceeding to edit the article in accordance with the majority view. That is the way things work here. If you don't like it, feel free to leave. Is that clear enough for you? Adam 06:48, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The proposed solution is desirable and should be implemented ASAP. Lacrimosus 07:33, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As an outsider who has read the Australian Constitution, and this article, I agree with the proposed outline above. Constitutionally, the Crown appears to have most of the same authority in Australia as it does in the U.K. The proposed solutions seem appropriate and accurate. -Willmcw 08:45, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
It really is a grand juxtaposition, to take these constitutional (shall we say) features/parallels/peculiarities, and on the basis of that call Australia a republic, outright and as such, in the leadof the article, no less (!) I'm currently (still) writing about Southern Rhodesia and after UDI, while the colony was in rebellion, formally they continued to attest loyalty to the Crown (the Queen, specifically). Then, later, upon the declaration of a republic, while the fundamental relations of power didn't change in any meaningful way (just like they won't if and/or when Australia becomes one), the constitution was formally written to reflect that (explicitly). Until Australia formally recognizes itself a republic, that lead clearly amounts to original reserach. Constitutional parallels can (and will) be drawn, but they need to be correctly qualified. The lead for this article only needs to account for formal statements and for widespread (mass) attitudinal sentiments, with all due respect to some constitutional scholars. Hrm, I didn't intend on writing at such length. El_C 01:15, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm glad you did, though; your comment is very helpful. SlimVirgin 02:10, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
Sweet. As Master Yoda has often been known to utter (probably): republican traits, a republic make not. El_C 04:02, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) File:Yoda.gif
After unprotection
Okay, I have restored the opening sentence and made some additional changes that I hope will be acceptable. First of all, I moved the "Head of state" section down below the "Structure of the government" section. Given the relative power and prominence of the head of state in the Australian system, it strikes me that this is not the subject that should lead off the article, though I'm willing to listen if people think it is.
The republican movement is now its own subsection within the "Head of state" section, because it's more about this aspect than the general governmental structure. The theories about already being a republic and two heads of state are basically all in the context of this debate, so I think that's the appropriate place for them to be mentioned, and they are properly attributed to sources.
Also, as a minor stylistic issue, I wrote "Governors-General" because in my experience this is the correct way to say this rather unusual plural in formal writing. If for some reason my usage here or elsewhere is not correct by the lights of Australian English style, please change it. --Michael Snow 18:38, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Governors-General" is correct. It grates in the mouth, but it is like "mothers-in-law" and similar hyphenateds-plural. Skyring 23:00, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Lead section
Can we work towards getting a lead section? - Ta bu shi da yu 02:46, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What's wrong with the one we have? Adam 03:19, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It didn't exist with the last couple of edit, so the menu was the lead (and before, it was just the lead sentence from that paragraph). I can't confess being familliar with the edit history of this article, I changed it thusly because, appearence-wise, it strikes me as an improvement over it being unleaded. El_C 03:46, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
We had a perfectly good intro section before the Skyring Wars. One of the problems with edit wars caused by cranks like Skyring is that they distort the balance of articles by forcing people to add more and more material about the disputed matter. The issue of who is Australia's formal head of state is actually a fairly minor one, and the repeated edits around this topic have distorted the whole article. Adam 04:37, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Makes sense. My changes were limited to and driven by immediately-percieved aesthetical considerations. Feel free to modify whatever I overlooked in that respect El_C 05:07, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Head of state and Republican movement
If you look back to [2] of nearly a month ago, you may see that in fact I proposed deleting any references to head of state because it was not a term that could be definitively sourced. Any additions are the property of others - my contribution was a single letter, which has since disappeared, I note. Let us be fair. Skyring 08:49, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Accordingly, I will remove the Head of State section because it is contentious. Adam has not provided any verification for his statements that there is a convention that the Queen is head of state, that the authors of the Constitution thought this axiomatic, and that "most authorities" say that the Queen is the head of State. As User:SlimVirgin has argued repeatedly, the criteria criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability.
The "Republican Movement" section is full of errors. For example, Sir David Smith did not oppose the referendum, nor did he argue during or after the Constitutional Convention, to which he was a delegate, that we had two heads of state. Could whoever wrote this stuff please correct it, or I'll do it for them. Skyring 19:45, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Remove the Head of State section? That sounds like a coup d'etat. ;) Why don't we just rename it to "Governor-General"? -Willmcw 20:37, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
Joking aside, the fact is that it is a contentious issue, and none of the three alternative views has a consensus amongst people who know what they are talking about. I think it is better to remove it entirely. An alternative could be to do something like what the Parliamentary Reseach Office has done in their paper, and summarise the arguments for each position without making a definitive statement. Skyring 21:33, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Or, it can be renamed to "Chief of State", the term used in the CIA Factbook. [3]. Is that not a source? -Willmcw 21:56, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but a dodgy one, going by recent history. Skyring 22:00, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Oh? I've never heard of any complaints about the accuracy of the "Factbook". Please share. -Willmcw 22:03, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
Have they changed the WMD entry yet? Skyring 22:30, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Red herring. That has nothing to do with the Factbook, which is a well-respected almanac of nations. -Willmcw 22:40, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
Did you actually read the article? If you did, then you've heard a complaint about the accuracy of the CIA Factbook. Skyring 22:46, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
And which is the WMD entry? There's no such three-letter acronym in the article. The only criticism of the Factbook I see is that the authors complain that, as of 1996, the Factbook listed Gabon as a member of OPEC even though it actually left in 1994. I acknowledge that it is a criticism. And that the criticism is irrelevant to this matter. -Willmcw 23:05, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
Skrying should not be allowed to create further pointless edit wars at this article in pursuit of his pet theories. If he does he should be reported to whoever is running this circus and barred from editing this article. The only reason this stupid "two heads of state" nonsense is in the article at all is because Skyring insisted on putting it there. If he doesn't like it, then by all means delete that paragraph, which is peripheral to the topic of the article. The rest of the "head of state" section should be retained. Adam 23:08, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Are you going to provide verifiable sources, Adam? If I don't see any sources, I'm going to take out the bits that are just your opinion. Skyring 23:49, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Skyring has completely failed to identify any errors in the "Republican movement" section. Sir David Smith has very explicitly articulated the two heads of state theory. In this article, which was apparently published in the Australian National Review, he opens with the words, "Under our Constitution we have two Heads of State - a symbolic Head of State in the Sovereign, and a constitutional Head of State in the Governor-General." As a dead giveaway to the fact that this is definitely not the standard position, his next sentence opens with "This is not some bizarre theory..."
He changed to the one head of state view during the late 1990s. Certainly before the referendum. Skyring 23:58, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The Australian National Review article is October 1996, the Quadrant article is November 2004. Please show evidence for a change of view before the referendum. The referendum is the context in which the argument is being discussed, so I would say the article from the run-up to the referendum is more relevant. The Quadrant article also opens with a comment about the lack of "a decent debate" about the issue, which indicates to me that the subject has dropped from the public radar screen since the referendum and does not warrant additional elaboration here. It strikes me as an intellectual's attempt to get some attention after the room has already emptied by saying the same thing as before, but putting it more shockingly. --Michael Snow 00:36, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A letter to the editor published in The Canberra Times on 31 Aug 1999 notes his change of position. In a lecture to the Samuel Griffith Society in July 1999 he had dropped the two heads of state view.
The most prominent constitutional scholar to support the two heads of state view is Professor George Winterton. Skyring 03:16, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
In 2004 Smith said of his earlier stance,
In those early days I accepted the conventional wisdom that the powers and functions of head of state resided with the Queen but were exercised by the governor-general...
In this, like other articles, we should put the "conventional wisdom" first and foremost. Let's move on. -Willmcw 00:45, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
The site to which I have linked is that of the Australian Monarchist League, and Smith lent his support to that organization by allowing multiple articles to be published there. Under the circumstances, I think it is entirely fair to describe Smith as an opponent of the referendum. --Michael Snow 23:41, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
He was in favour of the referendum. See his voting record at the Constitutional Convention. Perhaps what you mean is that he didn't support the change. He was all for the people having a say, because he knew what they would say. Skyring 23:58, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The above is typical of Skyring's word games. Of course Smith was in favour of having a referendum. He was opposed to the proposition being put at the referendum. Skyring knows quite well that is what is meant, but he plays these smart-arse semantic games to cause confusion and waste everyone's time. Adam 00:14, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Quite right, the information is entirely correct in its natural reading, and Skyring's argument is a deliberate misreading. The reasons why a monarchist attending the Constitutional Convention would support the version of the referendum that ultimately failed are fully explained at the article about the referendum itself. They are excessive detail for this particular article. --Michael Snow 00:36, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I was at the Constitutional Convention as a member of the Press Gallery. I spoke to Sir David Smith, Kerry Jones and many other delegates from all sides of the debate, both informally and through questions put at media conferences. I am not making a deliberate misreading. The strategies being adopted at the convention were quite plain. The ARM wanted to put its model to referendum, and made modifications in order to secure additional votes. They were not successful in gaining a majority, but they had enough votes to beat any other model. The direct-election republicans, who from my jouranlaist point of view were the most exciting and colourful, at first supported a referendum with some sort of direct-election model, but on the final day of the convention were doing their utmost to prevent there being any referendum at all. Given their anarchic organisational model, they had little success in this, the final throw of the die being an objection on procedural grounds. The monarchists were solidly in favour of the referendum being put, and though I will not reveal my source, they were told "put your trust in John Howard", who despite indicating on the first day of the convention that majority support would be required, pushed forward the model that emerged as the best supported. The monarchists were quietly confident as the convention broke up. The ARM delegates were mostly ecstatic, but Turnbull looked very weary as he spoke of the struggle ahead. The article as it stands is incorrect, and some minor surgery needs to be performed. Skyring 03:16, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Discussion of the referendum in this article is exclusively in the setting of the campaign to get the referendum passed. The maneuverings to formulate the proposal or get it submitted as a referendum are not mentioned at all. Accordingly, there is no reason for anyone to think that "opponents of the referendum" means anything other than "people who opposed passage of the referendum". Your personal recollections of the Constitutional Convention have little bearing on this issue. --Michael Snow 03:39, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Smith was in favour of the referendum because he, like the other monarchists, wanted a definitive NO result. He was against the changes proposed in the referendum. Again I suggest some minor surgery to clarify this.
Skyring, I agree with Adam & Michael that you seem to be playing word games here. This kind of thing is counterproductive -- I certainly agree with you that precision in wording is important, but it is here being carried to a fault. No good can come of the kind of stickling you're doing -- on the contrary, all it seems designed to do is antagonize/infuriate those who are trying to work with you on this article. Please stop. For a while I was perfectly willing to accept that you were having a genuine disagreement here, but your continuing to antagonize editors who are being perfectly good and clear contributors is simply expending all the good faith I am willing to assume on your behalf. Jwrosenzweig 00:39, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I appreciate what you are saying, but it is not in me to let an error go unchallenged. Skyring 03:16, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Would a vote be a suitable way of establishing the correct treatment? -Willmcw 00:48, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
Yes and no, in my opinion. Skyring's objections seem to float from one area to the next. If it was merely the referendum, a vote would be successful in resolving matters, but I'd say recent history here suggests that the argument would merely travel to another minor point. I think the most successful way of ending this will be Skyring openly committing to a more productive kind of dialogue, and I hope he will. In the meantime, though, a vote could certainly clarify community opinion....though I think it's becoming fairly clear already. Jwrosenzweig 00:50, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are mistaken if you think that I live for dispute over petty issues. Adam and I had similar discussions over the Governor-General of Australia article, and we came to a mutually agreeable text. I wanted to settle that before correcting similar errors in this article and accordingly on 14 February I posted a notification here that I intended to bring this article into line with others.
I note that Adam has participated in today's discussion and I take this opportunity to ask if he intends to provide any verifiable sources for his wording in the Head of State section. His opinion of what went on in the minds of the framers of the Constitution is clearly something that cannot be supported, as those debates were well reported at the time and subsequently by many commentators, Quick and Garran, Alfred Deakin and many others publishing books about the momentous events. Skyring 03:16, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have no intention of playing any more of your games. Adam 04:09, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
