Talk:Veselin Topalov

I've replaced the game which Giftlite put in this article with a different one. The one before, from Leon 1998, was a blitz game in an Advanced Chess competition (ie, the players were getting help from computers), which probably isn't ideal. If we want to single out one of Topalov's wins over Kaspy, then I think the one I've put in the article now (from the 1994 Olympiad) is better, since it was at normal time controls, and no computers were involved (I also think the standard of play was quite a bit higher). I don't claim it's the best possible example we could have (Topalov has probably played better games against players other than Kasparov), but I do definitely think it's better than what we had before.

Here is the original passage that I've now replaced:

Although Topalov has a negative record against Kasparov, he beat Kasparov with black pieces in Leon in 1998 :

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.g3 d6 5.Bg2 O-O 6.O-O e5 7.d4 Nbd7 8.e4 a6 9.h3 exd4 10.Nxd4 Re8 11.Re1 Rb8 12.Bg5 h6 13.Be3 Ne5 14.b3 c5 15.Nf3 Nxf3+ 16.Qxf3 b5 17.Rad1 bxc4 18.Bf4 Re6 19.bxc4 Rb4 20.e5 Qe8 21.Nd5 Nxd5 22.cxd5 Rxe5 23.Bxe5 Bxe5 24.Qf6 Bd7 25.Qf3 h5 26.Qa3 Bb5 27.Kh1 Qd7 28.Rxe5 dxe5 29.Qe3 Qd6 30.Re1 Rb2 31.Qxe5 Qxe5 32.Rxe5 Rxa2 33.d6 Rd2 34.Rxc5 Rxd6 35.g4 hxg4 36.hxg4 Rd4 37.g5 Rc4 38.Re5 Rf4 39.Kg1 Kf8 40.Be4 Bd7 41.f3 Bf5 42.Bb7 Ra4 43.Kf2 Be6 44.Ke3 Ra1 45.Kf4 a5 46.Bc6 Ke7 47.Rb5 Kd6 48.Be8 a4 49.Ra5 a3 50.Ra6+ Ke7 0-1

To be honest, I'm not sure about including an example game in articles, since it's very hard to sum up a player's style in just one game, and even if we give two or three I can imagine it might be very hard for every editor to agree on which should be included. I think that on the whole I would prefer no games in the article and a link to a site like chessgames.com where readers can browse a large number of a player's games and reach their own conclusions. But that's just me, and if others think example games are useful, fair enough. --Camembert 23:44, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

It's funny that I just replaced your sample game, and then came here to talk about it. Really, I don't think that wins over Kasparov deserve any special emphasis, and each player's record against Kasparov is conspicuously in too many chess biographies on Wikipedia. Putting something about each player's relation to Kasparov emphasized Kasparov too much, in my opinion. These articles are about the players, not Kasparov - he gets his own article.

In general I think the idea of the "Sample game" is cool, if anything to show off the exciting and beautiful games that players of this level can produce. Of course, Wikipedia should not tout them as such, but I don't think that people coming to Wikipedia to look up chess players would be disappointed to find chess games. In other words, I suggest that we put the focus on making the best encyclopedia possible, not the one that is least likely to produce some minor disputes like which sample game we should use. Sample games add to the article, so they should be there, imo. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 06:00, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you on virtually all of that (especially about players' records versus Kaspy being rather too prominent); I was probably just feeling a bit grumpy when I doubted the wisdom of including example games. The game you've put in the article now is, of course, a very nice one. Thanks. --Camembert 13:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

The sample game

I am probably missing something, but in the line 15...Nd7 16.Bxh6 f5 17.Bf4 Qa5, doesn't Black just remain a pawn down after, say, 18.Qd2? If so, it seems to me that while this line might avoid immediate loss, it can't possibly give Black equality. --Camembert 15:13, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

To verify this, I gave Shredder 9 a good several minutes to think about this position at the end of that line (after Qa5). After ten minutes, at depth 20, it analyzed as follows:

18.Qd2 dxc4 19.bxc4 Rfd8 20.Rc1 = (0.24)

+.24 is borderline for equality but the ChessBase software still used the "=" sign to describe the evaluation. Evidentally, Shredder thinks black has some compensation for the pawn. I think I'll run the deep position analysis on the position after 15. Bb1; that will give it a few hours to chew on all this. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 04:12, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I ran deep position analysis last night, and here's what I got, in PGN format. It should be compatible with any Chessbase PGN viewer.

[Event "M-Tel Masters"]
[Site "0:44:3O-O:27:42"]
[Date "2005.05.21"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Topalov"]
[Black "Ponomariov"]
[ECO "E15"]
[PlyCount "36"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Ba6 5. b3 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 Be7 7. Nc3 O-O 8. Rc1
c6 9. e4 d5 10. e5 Ne4 11. Bd3 Nxc3 12. Rxc3 c5 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. h4 h6 15. Bb1
Nd7 (15... f5 16. exf6 Bxf6 (16... Rxf6 17. Qc2 Nc6 18. Qh7+ Kf7 $18 {1.77/15})
17. Qc2 dxc4 (17... d4 18. Ng5 hxg5 19. hxg5 dxc3 20. Bf4 Kf7 21. Qg6+ Ke7 22.
gxf6+ Rxf6 23. Qxg7+ Rf7 24. Bg5+ Kd6 25. Qxf7 Qxg5 26. Rh7 Qe5+ 27. Kf1 Kc6
28. Qe8+ Kb6 29. Qd8+ Kc6 30. Be4+) 18. bxc4 Nc6 $18 {1.75/14}) (15... d4 16.
Rc1 (16. Qc2 g6 17. Rd3 h5 18. Bh6 Re8 $14 {0.26/19}) 16... Bb7 (16... Nd7 17.
Bxh6 f5 18. exf6 Nxf6 $16 {0.96/19}) 17. Bxh6 f5 18. Bf4 Re8 $14 {0.55/18}) 16.
Re3 (16. Bxh6 f5 (16... Re8 17. Qd3 Nf8 18. Bd2 f5 $14 {0.66/18}) 17. Bf4 Qa5
18. Bd2 (18. Qd2) 18... d4 $11 {0.06/19}) (16. Qc2 f5 17. exf6 Nxf6 18. Re3 Bb7
$11 {-0.10/17}) 16... d4 (16... Bb7 17. Qc2 f5 18. exf6 Nxf6 $11 {0.13/18}) 17.
Qc2 f5 18. exf6 Nxf6 $11 {0.07/18}

Points I thought were interesting:

• It found and rejected a line that is very similar (identical?) to the actual game continuation.
• It thinks all moves besides 15. ... Nd7 and 15. ... d4 lead to significant advantages for white (in some cases +1.5 or more).
• In the line 15. ... Nd7 16. Bxh6 f5 17. Bf4 Qa5, it rejected 18. Qd2 in favor of 18. Bd2, but it doesn't say why. I'm about to go study for a constitutional law exam, which should mean Shredder will get another few hours to think about that position so it can explain itself. Right now, after 18. Qd2, it prefers black by -0.10 after 18...dxc4 19.bxc4 Rad8 20.Rc1 Qa4 21.Qe2 Nb6 22.Nd2, but that is bound to change somewhat.
• It also ended up rejecting 16. Bxh6 all together because of 16. ... f5 17. Bf4 Qa5 18. Bd2 d4 with equality, presumably after 19. Rc1 Qc7 with Bb7. If I had to guess, I would say that Shredder thinks black is getting too much compensation for the pawn because of the protected passer in the center, the cramped nature of white's position making it difficult for him to generate any activity or improve his position, and the huge black bishop on b7. This position reminds me of Tisdall's book "Improve Your Chess Now" where he talks about positions where one side has a general positional advantage, in this case material, but has no plan to improve on his advantage. That's probably not the kind of position Topalov would have wanted to be in: I'm sure he liked the move Ponomariov played a lot more.

Interesting stuff. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 19:34, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

After two hours of looking at the position after 18. Qd2, Shredder settled on dead equality after an apparent repitition of position: 18...dxc4 19.bxc4 Rad8 20.0-0 Nxe5 21.Qe3 Nxf3+ 22.Qxf3 Rd4 23.Ra3 Qb6 24.Rb3 Qa5 25.Ra3 Qb6 26.Rb3 Qa5 27.Ra3 = (0.00) Depth: 23 --Ryan Delaney ^talk 21:16, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Interesting indeed, and quite probably beyond my level of comprehension. I can add the following, however: I don't know if you've seen it, but GM Dimitri Tyomkin analyses this game in issue 107 of Chessbase Magazine. He says that according to Topalov 15...Nd7 was the only move, and that Topalov suggested the continuation 16.Qc2 f5 17.exf6 Nxf6 18.Re3 (if Black plays 18...d4 here, then we have exactly the same position as at the end of Shredder's line, incidentally). Tyomkin suggests that Topalov's line isn't clear, however, giving 18...Bb7 19.Rxe6 dxc4 20.Qxc4 Bxf3 21.Rd6+ Bd5 22.Rxd8 Raxd8-/+ "and suddenly Black is attacking here!".

Tyomkin gives 15...Nd7 16.Bxh6! (his exclamation mark) 16...gxh6 17.Qc2 f5 18.exf6 Rxf6 19.Qh7+ Kf8 20.Ng5!+-, a line which we already have in the article, but he doesn't mention 16...f5.

I haven't seen an issue of Informant with this game yet; but in any case, Topalov does not, as far as I know, write for them any more, so we might have to wait for a "Best Games" collection or similar to read his own detailed thoughts on this.

I'm not sure, frankly, where all this leaves the article; I don't know how much detailed analysis we want in player biographies; maybe the game needs an article of its own? Anyway, it is, as you say, interesting stuff. --Camembert 21:58, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, the main thing that we can get from this, I think, is that if both Topalov and Shredder think 15...Nd7 was the only move, it's enough of an authoritative consensus that we can say so in the article. I'm no GM, but I think Tyomkin simply missed the saving move 16...f5 after Bxh6. Taking the piece is clearly suicide.

As for the amount of detailed analysis to put in the article, I'm thinking what we have now is about as much as we need. I might change it some, in light of Shredder having changed its mind about Bxh6 when given more time, but I don't think this game is historically relevant enough to deserve its own article. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 23:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Topalov's analysis

Topalov analyzed this game in New in Chess 2005/5. He called 15 ... f5 a "big mistake" and wrote:

... We thought that 15 ... Nd7 is the best, even though it gives White a huge advantage after 16.Qc2 (Pono was afraid I would take on h6: 16.Bxh6, but what I didn't like was 16 ... f5 17.Bf4 d4 18. Rd3 Bb7 and Black may not yet be fine, but is certainly much better than in the game) 16 ... f5 17.exf6 Nxf6 18. Re3. This last move I noticed during the game. Originally we had looked at 18. Qg6 Qe8 19.Ne5, with a pleasant advantage for White.

David Sneek 18:56, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Great, thanks for this. I'm going to have to run this through the computers, and I'll get back to it later.--Ryan Delaney ^talk 00:34, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

The Supposed Cheating Allegation

This nasty little rumor originated from the recent San Luis 2005 tournament. What makes it really nasty is that no one came forward to admit they started the rumor. I agree with Nigel Short that such rumors shouldn't even be worth mentioning, and thus I believe it does not belong in this article. Dionyseus 03:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

What the world would be like if Nigel Short ruled the world- scary. I don't really care what Short says- the allegations of cheating are a fact (that is to say, it is a fact that allegations have been made). Whether you consider the way in which they were raised ethical is immaterial. It was news, and plenty of news organizations felt it was sufficiently legitimate to report it. Sure it's unfair for the accuser not to come forward. However that does not mean the allegation was not made. And it is very relevant. Furthermore, on this issue of grammar:

"However, his title is disputed, some regard Vladimir Kramnik as the World Chess Champion because of his victory over Kasparov in 2000."

This is incorrect. "However, his title is disputed." This is a complete sentence. "Many regard Vladimir Kramnik as the World Chess Champion because of his victory over Kasparov in 2000." This is also a complete sentence. You cannot join the two with a comma. That is called a Comma splice. I will now correct the grammar one final time, and I will include the RELEVANT FACTUAL information about the cheating allegations. In the event that my germane and grammatically correct edits are incorrectly modified, I will seek out adjudication with an admin. Danny Pi 04:01, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe your edits in this article are NPOV, and as for the comma discussion I believe you're wrong. I would welcome an admin because it appears that you do not understand why your edits are NPOV. Dionyseus 04:34, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, my edits are NPOV, which is what Wiki is supposed to be. Neutral Point of View. The two clauses, "However, his title is disputed," and "Many regard Vladimir Kramnik..." are independent clauses, therefore they should be separated by a period not a comma- unless you want to add a conjunction, which you have not. On the topic of Topalov's cheating, I fail to see how you can possibly consider this irrelevant, since it relates quite directly to the subject of the article: Topalov. I don't think you can claim that my edit is biased, since I do point out that the allegation remains unproven. An article about Lance Armstrong would not be complete without mentioning the doping allegations (which I consider false). No less true is it that allegations of Topalov's cheating should be included in the interests of comprehensiveness and objectivity. Danny Pi 05:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

By NPOV I meant that your edits are negative point of view, which is what Wikipedia is not supposed to be about. As for the cheating allegation, like i've said before such negative and unfounded rumors do not belong in this article. Dionyseus 05:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)