Talk:Henry M. Jackson

Free to SubAmericanise

New Deal Democrats borrowed a lot from Fascism and Communism, and were quite right to do so. The system would not have survived if it had hung on to what it was when Roosevelt got elected.

Both the USA and USSR were intent on imposing their own system on the rest of the world. There was no intention of allowing anyone to live differently from the USA in the long term. The USA prevented elections in Vietnam because the Communists were likely to win them. Democracy was never respected when it involved people choosing to move away from the USA.

New Deal Democrats also had no wish to end the domination of society by people who were mostly white, mostly male and almost all rich.

As the main article says, this does flow very naturally into Reaganism. Except Reagan depended heavily on white-racist votes in the formerly solid Democratic states of the US South. 'Neoconservatives' are embarrassed by this, of course. They want everyone to be an identical 'unit of the individual'. But that is the reality.

'Free Market' is also misleading. The USA has kept the vast mass of subsidy, guarantee and regulation that the New Deal imposed. The 'neoconservatives' show no faith in their own creed when it would cost them money if it were not so. No one said 'let the market find its own level' in 1987, when a crash threatened to bring down the system. Only when it comes to taking things away from poor people is regulation suddenly wicked.

'Classic Capitalism' failed in the early 1930s. What the New Deal created used to be called the 'Mixed Economy' and should still be called the 'Mixed Economy'.

I comment on wider matters because the main article does. I take it to be written by some of the 'Henry Jackson Society' crowd. Fine, so long as they allow 'right of reply'.

--GwydionM 19:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Seattle-Tacoma International Airport name change

I changed part of the content to accurately reflect what actually happened in the above-referenced name reversion by the politicians. This came right out of his biography by Kaufman.

1. The actual name of the airport is Seattle-Tacoma International Airport. "Sea-Tac" is just a nickname everyone calls it.

2. The public was actually against changing the name back. They loved Scoop. It was business leaders, civic leaders & politicians in the two cities (Tacoma in particular) who were afraid of losing convention business without the name of their city in the airport title.--Hokeman 04:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Democratic Party denunciation

8BitJake, please provide a source for the bit about the Democratic Party denouncing the neoconservative "posthumously adoption" of Jackson's legacy. You saying it happened is not verifiable. (And please, please tell me that they used better grammar than that...) -- Jonel | Speak 23:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Jackson was not a Neocon

Senator Jackson was not a neo-conservative and the neocon appropriation of his legacy did not happen in his lifetime and we don’t know how he would have reacted to it so I don’t see a point of mentioning the Neocons in this article on Senator Jackson. I propose removing all references to them from this article and will do so.--8bitJake 20:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I will restore them if you do so. It's an important part of his legacy. Even today, Wolfowitz calls himself a Scoop Jackson Democrat. -- FRCP11 20:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You should mention that on the page on the Neocons. Since Senator Jackson was NOT a neocon it has no place on this page. I am fully prepared to fight and win this edit war. I don’t give a rats ass what Wolfowitz calls himself that does not change one damn but that Senator Jackson was not a neo-con. --8bitJake 20:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Nowhere does the page call Jackson a Neocon. It correctly states that he was influential in the Neocon movement. This is a historical fact that is relevant to Scoop Jackson, and belongs on his page, as well as on a Neocon page. It's notable, verifiable, and you give absolutely no reason for deleting it. -- FRCP11 20:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It sullens his image and it is tantamount to revisionist historical slander and it has no place in a NPOV article. If you want to mention it go do it in the neocon page. NOT HERE! Go look at the official bio on the Henry M Jackson Foundation website. There is not one mention of him being a Neocon. --8bitJake 20:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean "sullies" his image? Even if these facts do "sully" his image (which they don't--rather, they show that Jackson has had important influence beyond his lifetime, something very few politicians will ever be able to claim), that's not a reason to delete it. You greatly misunderstand what "NPOV" means if you think including additional facts (whose truth you have yet to dispute) violates NPOV. The Wikipedia biography is not supposed to be identical to the Henry M. Jackson Foundation website biography. There are many references to Scoop Jackson's influence on modern neoconservatism, all of which you deleted from the article. -- FRCP11 21:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The Neocon twisting Senator Jackson’s legacy is on the article on the Neocons so it does not need to be here nor does it deserve to be here. --8bitJake 21:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Every statement in the article that you deleted is WP:V, and you have yet to point to anything otherwise. The article never calls Jackson a neocon, so I have no reason to accept your challenge. The argument that verifiable notable information that has nothing to do with whether Jackson called himself a neocon needs to be removed because Jackson didn't call himself a neocon is a non sequitur. I'm restoring the text, since you have yet to give a valid reason for unilaterally deleting material that was added by several other editors. -- FRCP11 21:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I made my case and I defended it. You do not have a consensus and your changes to the article will be removed. --8bitJake 21:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Los Angeles Times:

"a new generation of Democrats wants to dust off and rehabilitate those traditional Democratic principles, which they believe were hijacked by the Bush administration.

They want, in essence, to return to the beliefs that originally brought the neocons to prominence, the beliefs that motivated old-fashioned Cold War liberals such as Democratic Sen. Henry "Scoop" Jackson. -- Jacob Heilbrun, "Neocons in the Democratic Party"

See also Peter Beinart's new book.

I suppose it's too much to expect an apology, but can you stop your nonsensical revert war now? In your passion to censor the article because of a misperceived "sullening" [sic], you deleted the link to the "Scoop Jackson Papers" at the University of Washington. I'm making a substantive edit to the article to reflect the Beinart book. Please don't violate WP:3RR. If you really care about Wikipedia and Scoop Jackson, why don't you try to translate your addition to the neocon section into the English language and find a cite for it? -- FRCP11 22:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The "Scoop Jackson Papers" at the University of Washington was a Dead link that I just fixed. This is not an article on Peter Beinart, Jacob Heilbrun or any Neocon and text about them will be deleated. I hope you do respect WP:3RR and note that you reverted first and have all ready violated WP:3RR--8bitJake 22:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

RFC

As you can see from the disputed edit, the text a single editor wishes to censor from the article is both notable and verifiable. The editor's argument against including it is the argument that Jackson was not a neoconservative himself, which may or may not be true, but is irrelevant to the fact that Jackson's political philosophy was highly influential over the modern neoconservative movement by the accounts of outside observers as well as neoconservatives themselves. -- FRCP11 20:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It is not Censorship. I am removing POV slander against the late Senator. --8bitJake 20:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You greatly misunderstand what "POV" means in Wikipedia. What's POV about the fact that Wolfowitz worked for Jackson, and says that Jackson influenced his political beliefs? I see you don't dispute that this is a notable fact, and don't dispute that this fact is verifiable. You thus have no basis for removing it. -- FRCP11 21:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

So what? That is completely moot. If you can find proof that the late Senator claimed he was a neocon straight from his own mouth then you could include it but you can’t so it does not belong here. --8bitJake 21:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Jake, this isn't Argument Clinic. You have to give reasons for deleting factual verifiable information in Wikipedia, and you still haven't justified it. -- FRCP11 21:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I gave my reasons. Senator Jackson was not a Neocon and you can not prove otherwise. Thus the Neocon fantasy has no place in the article about my late great Senator.--8bitJake 21:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)