Wikipedia talk:Centralized discussion/Removing warnings

Introduction

The results of a poll on the subject are disputed, and since polls aren't the way to make policy it seems like what this issue needs is some good discussion. I've listed what appear to me to be some of the main issues below; feel free to add more headings as required, of course. JYolkowski // talk 21:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there a difference between vandalism warnings and other warnings? Why?

I don't think so, although I might be willing to agree to block warnings being different from non-block warnings. JYolkowski // talk 21:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

How long should warnings need to be left on a talk page?

• I would say that they don't have to be left for any amount of time. If a user removes them, they've seen them. If they then reoffend, give them a sterner warning about the behaviour in question. JYolkowski // talk 21:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
• It seems to me the main function of a vandalism warning is to alert the vandal that his behavior is being observed and needs to stop. Once that has been done, it doesn't matter if the warning continues to appear. It is especially pointless if it works, and the editor stops vandalizing. What about assuming good faith? Rbraunwa 22:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Should removing warnings be treated as vandalism, making reverts to restore them exempt from the three-revert rule?

No, I don't think that we should give people unlimited licence to edit war on other people's talk pages. JYolkowski // talk 21:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

What if the sender and receiver of a message disagree as to its validity?

How should such disputes be handled, or is it instruction creep to even define a process?

I would say that if someone removes a message, and they don't agree with it, just ignore it unless they repeat the same behaviour that caused the message in the first place. JYolkowski // talk 21:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

How often do people actually remove warnings?

How often are people able to get away with problem behaviour because they remove warnings?

My suspicion would be very rarely. JYolkowski // talk 21:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Why do people remove warnings?

Should we assume good faith?

Yes, always, unless it can be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're removing warnings in bad faith. JYolkowski // talk 21:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Does the previous poll on this subject reflect consensus per Wikipedia:Voting is not evil, or are polls evil and a poor way of determining consensus?

Wikipedia:Removing warnings poll does show a consensus for the inclusion of the following language in Wikipedia:Vandalism:

The removal of legitimate vandalism warnings given within the last month is prohibited. If users remove legitimate vandalism warnings given within the last month from their talk pages, the warnings may be restored and additional warnings about removing warnings added. Such restorations are an exception to the three revert rule. Users who repeatedly remove legitimate vandalism warnings given within the last month from their talk pages may be blocked and may have their talk pages protected.

Wikipedia:Removing warnings poll currently contains 24 comments in favor of "Deleting valid vandalism warnings is always wrong", and 18 comments in favor of "Deleting valid, recently given vandalism warnings is wrong", which gives us 42 comments in favor of at least prohibiting the prohibiting the removal of valid, recently given vandalism warnings. By contrast "Deleting valid vandalism warnings related to ongoing disputes is wrong" currently only has two comments, "Deleting valid vandalism warnings is discouraged but should be tolerated" only has 4 comments, and "Deleting valid vandalism warnings is acceptable after reading said warning" has only 1 comment, which gives us only 7 comments in favor of allowing the removal of valid, recently given vandalism warnings under at least some circumstances. Thus, at least prohibiting the prohibiting the removal of valid, recently given vandalism warnings has the support of 85.7...% of the established users who have commented at Wikipedia:Removing warnings poll, which results in a consensus for this prohibition. Wikipedia:Removing warnings poll currently contains 28 comments in favor of "The warning should always be restored and an additional warning about removing warnings added" (in the case of inappropriate warning removal), and only 6 comments in favor of "Issue additional warnings when and if appropriate, but do not try to restore warnings that a user has deleted" with respect to vandalism warnings (there is one comment in this category that only applies to non-vandalism warnings.) Thus, "The warning should always be restored and an additional warning about removing warnings added" (in the case of inappropriate vandalism warning removal) has the support of 82.4...% of the established users who have commented at Wikipedia:Removing warnings poll, which results in a consensus for this language. With respect to the removal of vandalism warnings, Wikipedia:Removing warnings poll currently contains 20 comments in favor of "Repeatedly removing warnings should lead to blocks and/or talk page protection, even in the absence of other ongoing disputes". By contrast, with respect to vandalism warnings, the other categories on this topic only contain 6 comments. Thus, "Repeatedly removing warnings should lead to blocks and/or talk page protection, even in the absence of other ongoing disputes" (in the case of vandalism warnings) has the supoort of 76.9...% of the established users who have commented at Wikipedia:Removing warnings poll, which results in a consensus for this language. There is currently a clear consensus for including the above quoted language in Wikipedia:Vandalism. Furthermore, there's no policy basis for the claim that a poll cannot indicate consensus or be used to make policy. Wikipedia:Voting is evil is an essay, not a policy, and has Wikipedia:Voting is not evil as a counterpoint. Finally, in the templates for deletion discussion for the warning removal templates, there was a strong consensus to retain the templates, and, by extension, the policy which authorizes their use. Note that the TFD discussion was not organized as a "poll". John254 22:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

m:Voting is evil is a long-standing essay that's been around for ages. Its counterpoint is much newer, and its editing history demonstrates its relative newness. Voting is evil is something worked out by a number of pillars of the Wikipedia community. They cannot possibly be treated as equivalent. The fact of the matter is, Wikipedia has a longstanding tradition of avoiding votes, and not taking votes all that seriously. The amount of major policy that has been decided by vote currently stands more or less at one piece - blocking for 3RR violations. Phil Sandifer 23:47, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Is it acceptable for this discussion to come to a conclusion that contradicts existing policy?

I would say that any conclusion that unreservedly encourages edit warring on user talk pages is unacceptable. Small variances with existing policy may be okay, IMHO. JYolkowski // talk 21:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Policy is created and modified via consensus; thus, this discussion may indicate a consensus to alter existing policies. John254 22:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

There's also a big fish/small fish aspect to policy. A small policy like this, to my mind, cannot alter a major policy like the prohibition against edit warring or the tradition that people's talk pages are their own. Phil Sandifer 23:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)