Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Robert Saxon

This article isn't claiming anything of the sort, and the fact that such a sweeping statement can be made just emphasizes the nature of the attacks being levelled on a work in progress very much in its infancy.

Let us look at one particular complaint to illustrate. He says:

"The article gives the impression that he performed for Madonna, but a closer inspection indicates that he performed in a private suite at the stadium where Madonna was singing."

The actual quotation from the page is:

"Saxon was the feature performer at the old Wembley Stadium's VIP suite for major sporting events like The FA Cup, Budweiser Bowl, and concerts by leading artists such as Michael Jackson and Madonna."

Closer inspection isn't required. The passage is clear. I state very clearly that my subject was a feature performer for the VIP Suite at the old Wembley Stadium. A little research on the old Wembley would reveal a venue within the stadium capable of housing more than 3,000 people, and at major events these would have been invited guest including reporters and reviewers, major sporting and media stars, political luminaries and even royalty. To be called upon to regularly entertain such people is a major achievement in itself. So what exactly am I claiming that is wrong here or inflated? These are direct quotations from both the Phoenix Arts Education Trust biography on Saxon (in hard copy at Bancroft Library and on the remaining website) and also from the biographies published in theatre programmes. If I cannot cite these sources, where the hell am I supposed to go? If we are to say that nothing that isn't reported by the BBC or CNN doesn't exist, our world will contract immeasurably.

It's true I am working on a minor artist in British Theatre, but there are many such in the British performance entries. As an English teacher I would hardly describe my work as biased or a fansite. I am hoping to attract more people who know of this man to add to the knowledge myself and some of my former students have. However, over the last few days this character seems to have it in for the page and is escalating his tags to ridiculous proportions. I'm not saying I'm above criticism, but it's tough to take when the person who has power to do these things will not speak to me privately about what is to be done. Far from my sources being purely from websites I have found (the real company website for Phoenix Media Arts Group vanished a year or more ago and only the freesite mirror for one of their projects remains), they have also been taken from actual hardcopy progamme notes from productions I attended. These are in my posession, and also in the posession of several former students who encouraged me to undertake this effort. I am not sure if scanning these articles in and putting images up would be allowed, but I explained many of my sources in the discussion section also. I have been to the Bancroft Library and looked up the media centre building project in their local history archive and the whole project site including backup notes is there in the library file for the Poplar Baths site. This includes references to local education chief Anette Zera and Major planning and projects representative for Tower hamlets Council Paul Barter, not to mention the local Member of Parliament Jim Fitzpatrick who also happens to be Cabinet Minister for London. I find it hard to believe that a library archivist would make the mistake of having a complete hoax in his files, especially one that relates to local council heads and a Cabinet Minister. Beyond that, the Balineum project itself is huge, detailing productions, business plans, capital and revenue programmes, an educational programme, full architects' plans and a civil engineering report and more. If this TestBed fellow is correct then this must surely qualify and the most well thought out and executed hoax since The Hitler Diaries. Many of these library archives are in box files, but a link to Bancroft has been added to the page as it has with any other sources i could find that were linkable and anyone could follow my breadcrumbs if they so chose. Attending bancroft and looking at their archive, I found cds and hardcopy on this project. It is all there in a proper library that anyone is free to go to. Free sites are rarely deleted so I'm not surprised this one has survived. The company website must have expired it's regitration and hosting. If we are to say that these sources are invalid then it would seem that your policy must change to only include those subjects of a global profile who have full company websites about them. How sad would that be?

I am a regular theatre goer and see many productions by people and companies who have no literature about them whatsoever. Few do anything of note. My subject tried to change for the better an education system I work with in frustration day in and day out. He had a phenomenal effect on those I saw him teach and his aims, while unpopular with politicians, were effective, and simple and it's a tragedy to all of us who wish our pupils were more fired and inspired by literature that this project and this champion has been lost. In publishing this article I'm hoping that others will come forward with material and information on the man, but also that they might see the projects and the aims he stood for in the British education system and might pick up the torch. I watched this chap inspire a group of kids I could barely get to open a text. he got them to perform the pieces and enjoy Shakespeare. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get inner city children to do that?

The first moderator who helped me to format the article properly had positive things to say and has been offering guidance in an informative and very helpful manner. From this I took it that I was on the right track and should continue in the same vein. I am trying to find a CV of my subject to detail more the productions and performances he has been involved in, discover more biographical info and so on, and it has been my hope that others might come to the page and chip in also, which has happened once with someone uploading a picture I did not have. However, British regional theatre is not reported on or archived in the same way as West End, and much of the work my subject was involved in was pre web, or reported in local newspapers whose archives are less than complete. I was under the impression that this was about knowledge, not fame. I have suggested to the moderator assisting me that I might scan some material from programmes I have or photograph a couple of the posters I have but I am unsure about this for copyright reasons and await his response.

All this is most unsettling and I'm not at all happy. I'd appreciate it if someone could offer me some balanced advice, help me to organise what I'm doing and perhaps advise me as to how to get this vindictive chap to leave me alone. Looking at the way this chap has gone about his business I am amazed he is being allowed such control. Where a couple of the moderators have been polite and helpful, guiding me through very unfamiliar territory, he has been nothing short of fascistic purely it seems because he is unaware of my subject of interest and for some reason it offends him. If we took that opinion into account from everyone, encyclopaedias would cease to exist and ignorance would rule. I've only been working on this for a few short weeks, and my duties as a teacher, especially with exams looming must take precedence. Even so, it's impossible to work in a relaxed atmosphere and build something worthwhile when someone is stomping across the effort with the web equivallent of jackboots, and making so many threatening noises.

That this subject is obscure to the wider world is not an issue. I have tried to paint a picture of a man who achieved a bit on the global stage of entertainment before turning his attention to the betterment of his environment using the abilities he had. That the material is not "verifiable" with a few mouse clicks does not mean it is not verifiable. Anyone knowledgable about research understands that not everything is globally reported. After all, isn't that why this site was set up? To go some way to bridging those research gaps? If TestBed has nothing helpful to contribute to me personally so I can shape what I am working on then my preference would be he goes away and leaves that to those with the time and the patience to properly steer my efforts. JeriHayes 03:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)