User talk:Bytebear

You are SOOOOOO right

My collection of work is enormous. Seriously enormous. Because of that one particular person and the way he conducts what is presented as official Wikipedia policy, I will not be contributing any more of my photography. I've been trying to figure this system out. I thought I might have found where I can make a positive contribution of some lasting good and that feeling is completely and utterly gone.

You question needs some serious answers. To wit: Ok, so if I am required to use the GFDL-self, then why have the other options available for upload?

If that option is left on the upload page, some other clue needs to be given that an automatic speedy delete is forth-coming. I was trying very, very hard to properly create a page because the very first page I created here was tagged as a speedy delete. Even with what I thought was paranoid caution for my second page, something turns out to have been done incorrectly. Lucky me, a jerk managed to come in and sour my entire attitude about contributing. Oh, and for what it's worth, the guy has some serious inability to read the printed word and yet has the unmitigated gall to inform other people that something was explicit or could not be more clear.

I'll massage other people's text. I'll proof-read or fact-check, but I'm done trying to contribute any real work. TeraGram 06:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I am going to look into it. If I find more difinitive rules, I will let you know. Bytebear 18:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, according to Wikipedia rules found here Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags#For_image_creators, they say "Ideally, we would like you to license your work under a "free" license — with as few restrictions as possible.", however even if you give permission to Wikipedia, if you don't sicense it as free, they will delete it. So they are slowly getting more strict. It's sad really, they are restricting a lot of content that people would be willing to share, but wikipedia wants to essentially own their content, at the same time claiming no ownership of anything. Strange. it seems like a catch 22 to me. I have yet to decide if I want to post pictures or not. Convince me. Bytebear 18:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ccf link in PETA

Why did you remove the wikilink? You said yourself that "See also" should be used for wikipedia links, and as clearly stated in my comment on the PETA talk page, it's wiki convention not to use external links when we can use an inline link. Jean-Philippe 01:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad. I didn't realize one was a web link and the other a wikilink. I have reverted. However, I copied the description of the weblink to the wikilink to make them consistant and avoid POV. -BB

By favoring their own description of themselves as opposed to a neutral and factually correct description, you are in effect being POV. You also omitted to mention the group is opposed to PETA's agenda like l0b0t did, which make it worthless in the context of the article and nothing more than publicity for CCF. Jean-Philippe 01:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. That is why I have changed the description to the wiki page description. -BB

Yay, I'm a slow typer. I just noticed your changes, if what I read on the talk page is correct then the matter is fine. Jean-Philippe 01:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Yay!

Deletion of text at Temple (Mormonism)

Bytebear,

I have noticed your persistent deletion of a portion of the text at Temple (Mormonism), along with your assertions that the text you are deleting is POV.

Please note that such deletion is inappropriate and outside the bounds of the WP:NPOV policy. Deleting material under the guise of POV is specifically addressed in the FAQ: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Lack_of_neutrality_as_an_excuse_to_delete. Specifically, the FAQ also addresses articles on religion and notes that there are specific guidelines as to what these types of articles should contain.

Please discontinue deleting text from the article, and I suggest you read the WP:NPOV policy carefully before asserting accusations of POV in error. Reswobslc 00:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

My response is this: If you had read my comments instead of blindly reverting my changes you would have read that my main arguemnt for removal of your text was two part 1) the reference was not verifiable and came from an unreputable source and 2) the inclusion added nothing to the article but sensationalism. Note carefully: NEITHER OF THESE ARGUEMENTS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH POV. Although, I do think you have a very biased POV and are adding crap to the article just to get your digs in. If you look at the talk page, there are several, in fact many that agree with my position. Examples:

I'm curious what the academic value is of including death penalties overview in this article? Is it to show that the temple ceremonies have changed? Is it that the information is sensational? Not to compare, but I'm looking at the Freemasonry pages, and not only don't they discuss their ceremony, but they don't discuss similar oaths. Why do we go into so much detail here, when other, similarly compared "secretive" ceremonies aren't even on wikipedia? Just curious what the point is of including it here, when wikipedia has declined to do it elsewhere? Is it that relevant to the end reader? -Visorstuff 18:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

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It would appear you have an agenda that prevents you from acknowledging facts when they are your own. It is unfortunate, but it is what we risk when building a public encyclopedia; we will have bright people that attempt promote neutral writing and then we will have people with private agendas that are not interested in quality writing or facts. Storm Rider (talk) 21:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

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Seems to me this material is POV and thus should be omitted, not to mention there are more appropriate places to present such information. 66.151.81.244 21:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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By the way you state :"WP admins will support me on this one - every religion from Buddhism to Catholicism has people that want to whitewash the articles or to present a non-historical view of the way things are today - which is against the goal of an encyclopedia and is why Wikipedia has a specific policy to address it."

I am an admin. Consensus and this policy declare that one err on the side of documentation, not hearsay, and that sacred things (regardless of religion) be treated with respect. I think that teh appropriate links policy would state that the Packham link would be hearsay. Especially with such incorrect information such as the following paragraph to the throat-slitting one:

" The church when I left had no family home evening, no three-hour block of meetings, no correlation committee, no "Strengthening the Members" committee, no Blacks (they were called "Negroes" then).

Either Packham left the church prior to 1900, or he loses credibility about his knowledge of the church with this sentence. Facts: In 1915 President Joseph F. Smith instituted "Home Evening" [4]. Formal organization of a Priesthood Correlation Program occurred in 1908, and the first black I know of that was baptized into the church took place in 1830 (Elijah Abel was baptized in 1831, and held the priesthood, as did his children and grandchildren until the priesthood was extended to all worthy men).

Now all of that is irrelevant aside from finding credible sources (the Tanners are probalby the best for this one). I believe that you treat these articles with respect (thank-you by the way), but I think this argument about this detail explores the question on how much detail do we want to go into on these articles. The rest of the article is quite general, this is one of the first "details" given - and as such makes it look like a major part of the endowment - which it is not. I look forward to hearing more on your thoughts above. -Visorstuff 23:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems you are the only one who doesn't get it. Also if you had read carefully, I don't really care what you reveal about the secrest temple rites. I just think they should support the article, which clearly they do not. Now if the paragraph was re-written, which I am thinking about doing, to where all bases can be covered without weasel words or phrases plopped in to shock and titilate the reader, then it would be fine with me.

Dispute at anti-Mormon

In order to gain a consensus concerning the issue at anti-Mormon, would you please comment here? --uriah923^(talk) 04:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

List of temples

Good catch on using the userspace transclusion on the no longer operating temples. --Trödel 04:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. It's a lot better just by your efforts with the template. I did notice that the Notes label and the notes do not align when the text line wraps. -B

continuing table discussion here - I've tried that and I don't see what I can do to make it better. if you want to try stuff out - feel free to edit my my sandbox --Trödel 17:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The Original Barnstar

		The Original Barnstar
		For your tireless efforts to improve The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article. Lethargy 00:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

LDS church

The POV being pushed is strictly the POV of the LDS church ... we all know that early church leaders were arrested for various cirmes; that would be a good reason to move out of those jurisdictions. I will not sit by idly and allow the LDS church's POV to be used in these articles. Duke53 | ^Talk 22:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC) p.s If the baptism stuff is covered elsewhere I propose that the whole section be deleted.

I see main articles and cross articles, so the main article should mention baptism for the dead as a key belief, but have the baptism article cover all aspects of it. This is just so all information is available and so articles aren't huge.

As to early church leaders, it's fine to point out their arrests, but 1) the article is not about Joseph Smith or any other church leader and 2) their arrests were not a reason for abandoning settlements as far as I know. I am open to verifiable references that prove me wrong.

As to whether these arrests were valid or warrented should also be included in any article about them. For example, Smith was for the most part under extradition for an assasinatin atempt on Lilburn Boggs which he was later determined to be innocent. So there are two sides ot every story, and I think the editors have done a good job covering all of them. Its not just what you put in wikipedia, but where it is put. so think about where the information would be best served. History of the LDS Church seems more appropriate than an overview article, IMHO. Bytebear 22:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposal on Criticisms of Mormonism page

It would help if you would explain your reasoning for adding a merge proposal with the Controversies page. Thanks, Storm Rider ^(talk) 23:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I did, but was not logged in, so it is probably listed as anonymous. I know this has been discussed before, but I still don't see the need for two articles. particularly one that is just a bullet list. Maybe List of Mormon Controveries? Bytebear 23:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I see no need at all for the Controversies article; it is a list, nothing more. Do you know if lists are appropriate for articles? Some of the older editors will dislike the merger, but let's let them speak for themselves. Storm Rider ^(talk) 02:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Are there 'controversies' sections in articles for other religions? If not then get rid of this one; if there are then I say that this one should stand as well. Duke53 | ^Talk 02:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the article Controversy there is a list of specific controversies, and the only specific religion mentioned is Mormonism with two links (both redirecting to Controversies regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and Jehovah's Witnesses: controversies. Other issues are more conceptual like King James Only Controversy (disambiguation) or about a specific event like George W. Bush military service controversy.

I personally think throwing all of Mormonism over the coals is a bad idea because it would be a huge article to fully explore each issue, or it becomes a basic list which isn't really an article. I think the prefered method is to include controvercial issues in main articles, or hava an article about each specific issue. I think in the LDS article, the Mountain Meadow Massacre is a good example of how it should be done. Mention the issue in NPOV and link to further information. Unfortunately, what happens is both sides of the arguement keep adding thier points and the section gets bloated. This is why I am hesitant to even put issues on the main article unless it relates directly to the issue at hand. A lot of people regard this as POV by omission, but there are several dozen articles on LDS beliefs. Combine that with articles about the LDS Movement, Mormon offshoot religions, or historical articles not related directly to the LDS church, and you have way too much information to handle on one page.

I think we should weave in any information in the "Controversies" section into the article or omit it (for example I think isses other Christians have about the Trinity is really irrelivant to the main LDS article). Currently there are three controvery articles about the LDS church that I know of: Anti-Mormon, an article about history of anti-Mormon issues and how it is presented, etc. Criticism of Mormonism which I can see getting way too big if we cover every issue in the article, and Controversies regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints which is basically a list of controverial LDS issues. Bytebear 02:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok. So my vote is: No "controveries" section within an individual article, but put the controverial info where it belonds within the article. Separate articles for each issue so they can be addressed fully. List article for each of the separate controveries. Get rid of the "Controveries" article. Bytebear 03:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

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Oh, and if you want to see a really POV article, check out People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Bytebear 03:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Family Section on LDS Church Page

I'm having trouble with one of the paragraphs. By the way, thanks a TON for the work on it. It looks great! The problem paragraph deals with the support groups that are not affiliated with the Church. The way it read originally, it seemed as if one might imply that they are supported by the Church, when in fact they are not. Here is the original paragraph:

"The Church's opposition to homosexuality has spawned support groups for gay men and women like Affirmation and Gamofites. More recently, a small liberal branch of Mormonism has been established calling itself Reform Mormonism."

I rewrote it like this:

"The Church's opposition to homosexual relations has resulted in the creation of multiple LDS-oriented support groups not affiliated with the Church. These groups include both those dedicated to affirming gay identity, such as Affirmation and Gamofites, as well as those dedicated to helping those who wish to change such as Evergreen International."

The main reason for the change is that if we include information on the pro-affirmation groups here, it seems a balance to include information on pro-change groups. I'm ok with that. My problem is that it seems to start getting too long in proportion to the rest of the section. The rest of the family section doesn't go into significant detail about other programs. Again, reference above where I talk about how these groups aren't affiliated with the Church. Hope I don't sound critical of you. I think you're doing a great job. You can respond on my talk page if you'd like. :) Sylverdin 19:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello! I saw your ideas for shortening the article and I like them. I apologize that I can't give you more feedback on all of them, but I have worked on the family section. I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to it, but it looks good to me. Concerning the family section, I have a hard time putting it under "culture." The LDS teachings on family are an essential part of the beliefs section. In fact, the whole subject of the Church's World Wide Leadership Training last year was the family. I renamed it simply "family" and put Eternal Marriage and the Proclamation at the beginning. I think we need to keep those parts. I'm unsure about the rest of the section, so I left it alone. Maybe take out the part on same-gender issues. Or make a new article about it. FHE seems to fit, but maybe could be shortened. :D Sylverdin 22:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I like your idea of a separate FHE article. I suggested separating the doctrines of Eternal Families from the cultural aspects of the church. For example, FHE, although a church program is not essential (per-say) for salvation. Also, there are so many programs about strengthening families, that it seems the main LDS article is not big enough to handle it all. I think we can blend the info on to one paragrah in the LDS article, and then separate the doctrines for the practices in supporting articles. I will look over your changes right now, and thanks for the help. I have been hesitant to remove anything for fear of starting up another revert war. Bytebear 23:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Editing a quote

Do not edit quotes! I don't know where that 'rule' you quoted ("You cannot annotate a quote with bold! Clearly POV. let the quote speak for itself") came from but I copied the quote I cited exactly the way it is written ... by changing it you have changed what the ORIGINAL author intended. If you revert it again I will be reporting your action to the admins. Duke53 | ^Talk 01:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the quote is not cited correctly. The actal source is "Comprehensive History of the Church, vol. 1, page 441" which is what should be cited. Second, the emphasis is by the author of the webite, which is HUGELY POV because it's an anti-Mormon source. The reference should change and the empahsis removed. Bytebear 02:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Care to show me your version? Until then the one I displayed will have to do. Duke53 | ^Talk 02:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

HELLO? The website specifically points to the citation in the article. It was a quote from a speech. I don't recall BOLD being used in speeches, do you? The emphases was added by the website author, and is not part of the speech. Now, if you want to discuss it further and avoid the 3R rule, take it to the talk page. In the meantime I will see if I can find a web version of the original quote. Bytebear 02:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you recall inflections of voice being used for emphasis in a speech? ... BOLD = inflection when written. Do you suppose that this guy whispered the speech?Duke53 | ^Talk 03:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

WR Duke53 | ^Talk 03:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Ummm... what did I remove? Find the original source. Move the discussion to the LDS talk page. Bytebear 03:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I see. Thanks Leth! Bytebear 03:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Duke, please read the edit summary, it was NOT a legitimate use of that template, and I was the one who removed it. --Lethargy 03:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Issues

I agree. If it turns into a revert-war, we'll need to set up mediation; otherwise, it looks like it's devolved into weirdness and sexism ("Lady"?) rather than a discussion of sources or of policy. Which really isn't worth the time of anyone involved.

I appreciate your support. It felt a lot better to see someone else's name in there. --Masamage 05:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

List of web application frameworks

I reorganized the lists of frameworks. In doing so, I overwrote your table that you created. I'll put the table back in a minute. Sorry.

• Wdflake 22:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I was freaking out, cuz I was moving some stuff around too, and noticed that sections were being moved around. I do think that .Net should be moved to the N section alphabetically though. Bytebear 22:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Tell me if this sounds like a dumb idea. I'm thinking that since many of the tables are getting more complicated, screen real-estate is needed. I'm thinking of shortening the displayed urls from something like http://www.oracle.com/technology/consulting/9iservices/jheadstart.html down to www.oracle.com. Is that a good or bad idea? --Wdflake 01:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Look at what I did for PHP. I shortened the links to a name, "Home page" mostly, and added columns to better compare the frameworks. There is a lot of info to fill in however. Bytebear 01:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

November 2006 Mormon Collaboration

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been selected as the November Mormon collaboration of the month. I look forward to working with you on it. --uriah923^(talk) 21:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Whoo hoo. I hope we can streamline the content and get it to be a featured article again. Bytebear 21:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Peter Pan (film)

Hi Bytebear, since there is no earlier version of Peter Pan than the 1924, I thought it's right to move it to (film), after naming conventions. That's a redirect page in need of cleaning. Is this a matter to discuss or ask administrators? It's no big deal for one film, but I find this problem more often with films. Hoverfish 00:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the inclusion of the film link. I had no idea there was a silent version, and to have it influence Walt Disney is huge. The issue I have with just saying (film) is that it is not necessarily the earliest film that gets the non-standard naming convention, but the most likely version a user might be looking for. So if I search for "Peter Pan Film" it should most likely redirect to the Disney version as this is the most popular. Same thing for (film), In this case (film) goes to redirect as there are several films and so I have no preference. So if one of the films is going to have (film) rather than (1924 film) or (1956 film), I would give it to the Disney version. I actually like the consistancy of the date being in the title because there are several versions. I do think that "Peter Pan movie" and "Peter Pan film" should redirect to the Disney version page. Bytebear 00:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, one might argue that they should redirect to Hook. You can always do another disambiguous page called Peter Pan (film) that lists all the film versions, without all the other references to Peter Pan. Just a thought. Bytebear 00:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying this point. I had misunderstood the guidelines on this. Hoverfish 00:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

There are no hard and fast rules, but for the most part, if people can agree on naming conventions, then everything works out. There is actually a bit of a discussion on Bill O'Reilly because in the US he is a well known political comentator, but in Australia he is a famous Cricket player. So compromises are made. Go figure. Bytebear 00:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Plan of Salvation and First principles

In case you don't see what I wrote on the talk page, I completely agree with you on the need to shorten The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article. Here is what I wrote:

"I was about to say that the First principles and ordinances of the Gospel section be rewritten to be much shorter, but I see you beat me to it. I completely agree: this and the Plan of Salvation section need to be a lot less wordy, we should try to keep it as simple as possible and avoid deviating from what the sources state. I'm thinking we should use a sledgehammer rather than a chisel and completely rewrite these sections."

Not that I look forward to the task of rewriting this, but it is totally needed. --Lethargy 23:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

temples and CJC

no problem - you did a great job with that Infobox - the coding on that stuff requires concentration I usually don't get. I am on a crusade to make articles CJC's main article better like JS - and use proper sub articles -but it is difficult to know where to start. --Trödel 03:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I am setting up other templates for the temple pages, so hopefully they will be easier to manage. I agree that many articles need work. The Relief Society article, for example needs work. I think everyone focuses on the main articles about Mormonism, but it should be comprehensive. In fact, I think the big articles should be synopsis sections of other more specific articles. Bytebear 03:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

maps

dude - I love the maps - they rule! great job ! --Trödel 13:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, well find me blank maps of Mexico, Asia, Canada and South America, California and Utah! I am working on Australia. Is there a cartography project on Wikipedia, because we need it. Bytebear 17:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

lamp article

the information in the software section you added is pointless. reading the top summary paragraph from the linked articles is enough. it's just pointless to add a bunch of information that doesn't need to be there. it's clutter. ColdFusion650 17:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Each article should have enough informaton to tell the reader enough about the subject for understanding. Telling them that L stands for Linux means nothing to someone who doesnt know what Linux is. So you need a section to summarize Linux, and then a link for further information. Otherwise, the article should not exist at all. Having a section on Linux is much more important than an arbitrary list of acronymns describing obscure web configurations. Bytebear 19:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

They would know that Linux is an operating system. It just seems like you want to add information just for the sake of making a major contribution to an article, not because it's needed. A link is all that's needed. Until it gets removed for good, I'm trimming out the most excess parts. ColdFusion650 16:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

How many encycolpedias or articles on here do you know that don't explain what it is they are talking about. I suppose we could have it just be one line, that says Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP and leave it at that. Don't assume the reader knows what you are talking about just because you are familiar with the subject. I think your edits are appropriate though, but a bullet list is just not an article. Bytebear 21:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Mormon mysticism

Byte, could you look at the above article. In reading it I have found that it is basically the work of one editor that says he is a Mormon and a chaos magician. I am not too concerned about his personal interests, but I am concerned when he takes those interests and says that they are a significant interest within Mormonism. I would also encourage you to vote on the deletion vote. Thanks for your assistance. Storm Rider ^(talk) 23:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Template:List LDS Temple USA East

For the Template, Columbus, OH and St. Louis are way out of place. (Columbus is in Missouri, St. Louis in Arkansas.) Naraht 09:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I did all of the dots in a couple days, so wasn't worried too much about total accuracy. If you would like to edit them, you can check out the editing Java program that I used, and just update the data. I don't have time to fix them right now, but if you have further questions, I will be happy to tell you more on how I made the maps. Bytebear 19:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Streisand's honorary award remark

I noticed that you left an extensive summary for your recent edit to Barbra Streisand and you took it from an article. The page is severely lacking references and it might be wise to mention this remark as a reference/note by adding:

<ref>name magazine, date / page, "Her Tony was a special "Star of the Decade" award. However, Streisand's Tony was honorary rather than one of the regular awards, so [it] is sometimes not counted"</ref>

Thanks for keeping an eye out on her page. It is quiet again, but there was some persistent vandalism on her page and nobody was watching her page. KittenKlub 08:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

LA temple

love the new LA temple image --Trödel

Thanks. It is a huge structure. There are more on the Los Angeles California Temple page. Bytebear 01:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Temples of CJC

As a contributor to the different lists of temples, I was wondering if you could give some feedback concerning the addition several columns to the Comparison of temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints page. thx

Also - I have created this temp page to list the differences in the parameters we are using - I think that we should try to use the same name for the same thing if we can. I am ok with your standard of dedication (instead of dedication_date). We also have discrepencies in how the parameters are passed. I require the person to put in the [ [, you don't and you do the image in a way that requires the "_" underscore character - See [User talk:Trödel/Snippets]] for a quick list of things I found. I am going to use hectares for the metric measurement of site size - rather than sq meters because it fits better in the column format. 1 hectare = 10,000 m2 or about 2.5 acres --Trödel 22:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. This goes well with a project I have been working on. Take a look at Temple architecture (Latter-day Saints). I am still fleshing out the details, and have done a lot of cut-and-paste, which needs to be reworded. I also have some questions on specific styles of later temples. I see "Remote area 1", "Remote area 2" and "Remote area 3", but cannot find any reference to them other than Wikipedia. I would love to group each temple by architectural style. If you can help in any way there, I would appreciate it.

Now to your questions. I did notice that the template has a few discrepancies. I think the images should use the "Image:xxx" format which may get rid of your underscore issue. I also have seen other templates that allow you to put in feet and it generates the meters automatically. I think we can do the same thing with acres or even Hectares (never heard that one, but makes sense). I am not married to the idea of dedication vs dedication_date. I think whichever conveys the correct message to the editor. I have done some editing on rollercoasters, and their template is really convoluted, so anything we can do to fix, I say we do. The only issue is that when you make a change, you have to change 150+ pages. Since there aren't many pages using the temple template, I am ok with changes, but in the future, we should make sure that name changes are backward compatable, (i.e. keep the old name as a depricated value). Bytebear 23:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Great comments - I was thinking we could use the comparison page as a kind of checklist - when adding the {{Infobox LDS Temple}} to the individual page - put the data also in the comparison list - so we know where we are.

I totally agree re getting the discrepencies worked out now - if you want to see a real mess check out {{cite book}} or {{cite web}} and their kin where there is all kinds of extra coding to make them backwards compatible with depreciated parameters.

If we can get them all worked out now when there is only 5 that have the Infobox that would be great - plus I can do quick S&R on the list pages to get them matching (I have a text editor that does S&R with regular expressions (from Funduc) so it won't be too hard as long as they are all on the same page.

I'll put a list of issues on the page I referenced above and then what it looks like we have agreed on. feel free to wiki edit away.

Finally, what do you think about including extra data in the different lists - I see pros and cons - pro - just copy and past the infobox data to the different lists without modfiying them would be easy - just change the template name. con - makes the page have a lot of lines that aren't needed and may confuse people who come later and edit. ... --Trödel 23:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think extra data is fine for the list template, even if it isn't displayed. If we change our minds later, it will be easier to handle. We may even want to see about doing some kind of include of the data from the temple page. Something like this { { Template talk: { { TEMPLEPAGENAME } } /Data } }. Then each page including the temple page itself just includes the same data. I think it's something worth experimenting with. Bytebear 23:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I have thought about that before (and include a little {edit} link to edit the data from any of the uses (temple page, or the 3 list pages). A couple things it would have to be stored outside the article space - ie it can't be TEMPLEPAGENAME/data but it could be Talk:TEMPLEPAGENAME/data or Template:Infobox LDS Temple/TEMPLEPAGENAME or something like that. I think the general use of this kind of stuff is limited but that the template space has been used for it rather than talk space. We should ask COGDEN as he has made subpages in the template page (and he is the one that fixed my early mistake of putting an information page in the article space). I'll review your edits later tonight and see if I can help. --Trödel 23:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I am ok with edit links to the data, as it does get confusing where the data actually lives. I have found that if you create a template with a heading, the Edit link goes to the template which is pretty cool. I did some experiments (which I got chastized for - see below), and they didn't work, so I am up for suggestions. I like the idea of having one set of data that several templates can incorporate. I just don't know how to do that technically. Bytebear 23:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

sounds good - best to experimet with {{X2}} or other sandboxes before creating new pages - I'll go delete the page you created in the template space unless you object. --Trödel 23:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Delete away. Hopefully we can find the right technical solution (or live with mutliple versions of data). Bytebear 23:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Template:Los Angeles California Temple‎

Can you tell me what purpose you plan on for this template? Would it be used on multiple pages? User:Zoe|(talk) 23:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It was an experiment. It didn't work. Feel free to delete. My bad. Bytebear 23:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I was attempting to use data in several templates, so the data wouldn't be duplicated. Is there a way to do that? Bytebear 23:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the thing is that it looks to me like what you were trying to do is to create a template to be used for one article, that's not what Templates are for. You should create an infobox in the article then reproduce that in other articles. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

There already are two templates using the same data. One is for an infobox, and the other for a tabulated list. In fact there are several tabulated lists listing different aspects of each building. I was hoping to define the infobox in one place, the list in another, and have a third template that just contained the data that could be shared amongst the two templates. Bytebear 00:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

FYI, User talk:Ligulem#Solution? was able to provide me with a potential solution --Trödel 17:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It looks like a viable solution. Test it out, and let's decide on a naming convention and standard. Bytebear 17:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

That does look like it will work (and that is very cool), but it's sad that it's such a hack. There should be a more generic way to configure a data source. The Comparative list, the regular list, the geographic list and the individual article InfoBoxes should all come from a single source of data. - Bhludzin 20:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I found this on another template:

{{!}} {{{height}}} ft ({{#expr: {{{height}}} * 0.3048 round 1 }} m) }}

I think we should use the same logic to convert feet to meters, so we can avoid two values. Other conversions should be done for acres, etc. Bytebear 22:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Social Activist

Thanks for the heads up on this article. I agree with your assesment and think the re-direct is appropriate. Vic sinclair 03:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Great work on Temple Architecture (Latter-day Saints) and the geograhic images

		The Original Barnstar
		Great work on Temple Architecture (Latter-day Saints) and the geograhic images. Keep it up! As I know the work can sometimes be thankless, I just wanted to say, "Thank you!" --Trödel 17:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Sean Wolfington

Hi, my name is Sean Wolfington and i am new to Wikipedia. When i found that i had a page on the site i added truthful facts from my bio with out the intent of creating a "vanity" article. I did add content to other people's articles that linked to a film we made and now i know that is not allowed - i am sorry. I just read the "spamming" link you added to my page and now i realize that what i did was not right.

This excerpt explains what happened to me: "Some people spam Wikipedia without meaning to. That is, they do things which Wikipedians consider to be spamming, without realizing that their actions are not in line with building an encyclopedia. A new editor who owns a business may see that there are articles about other businesses on Wikipedia, and conclude that it would be appropriate to create his own such article. A Web site operator may see many places in Wikipedia where his or her site would be relevant, and quickly add several dozen links to it."

If you can i would appreciate your advise on what to do to avoid creating problems in the future. Thank You. Sean.

PS: I noticed that you write alot about LDS . We are screening our film, "Bella", to LDS leaders in Salt Lake City including Larry H Miller. I know this not relevant to my article but i want you to know that the film is legit and the reviews are real. The movie is beautiful and we hope it makes a positive impact on the world. I hope you get a chance to see it when it comes out.

I wouldn't call Larry H. Miller a church leader, but that's another issue. I think if you want your article to stand, you need to make it less about the movie and more about yourself. The movie should stand on its own as it's own article. Your article should stand on its own as well. But thats the catch 22. You should not be self promoting. If you are prominant enough to warrant an article, someone else will make it (someone other than your mother, or other close friend or relative). We will leave it up to comittee and let the admins decide. Bytebear 21:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I did not create the article, nor did my mother, close freind or relative. As i mentioned above... after i found the article written about me i added the information about the film. I did not realize that it was not allowed to add that information. I will remove it. Thanks for responding. Have a nice holiday. Sean.

No worries. It's not that it's not allowed. It just will be looked at as suspect (as yours was). I am sure as you progress in your career you will have more notable things to list. Cheers. Bytebear 23:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Using a standard data set for the temples

I have been working on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement/Temples and have implemented the single data location for the Salt Lake Temple (data) and the Los Angeles California Temple (data). These both use an updated Infobox - see {{Infobox LDS Temple}}, which implements the parameter naming standards as described in the WikiProject page. I plan to implement on the first 10 temples, but thought you might have some feedback on the style. I will be creating the list templates, hopefully, over the weekend and implementing them as well for the first 10 templates.

Also please let me know if the instructions are too technical. TIA --Trödel 04:08, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Nauvoo Temple Charts

I was disappointed to learn recently that you are taking credit for creating the floor plans of the Nauvoo Temple that I created some six years ago for my webpage on the Nauvoo Temple. Here is the link to the menu page of the original drawings on my Nauvoo Temple site for comparison. Clearly, you have simply copied my drawings, made a few minor changes, and then claimed them as your own, even posting them on the Wikipedia article Nauvoo Temple as the copyright owner. If you would have contacted me I would have gladly given you permission to use them, but now as the actual copyright owner I must ask you to remove them from this page, from the Nauvoo Temple page, as well as from any other Internet page where you may have used them.

Bytebear, on reflection I have decided to request that, rather than asking you to remove your drawings, you simply give me credit as the original source for them: something like, "This drawing is based on an original located at Nauvoo Temple, used with permission of copyright holder" in the copyright statement. I'm not really opposed to you using them, if you simply give me due credit.

I did use your drawings as a reference in the drawings I created. I did however, create the images from scratch. I first used the dimentions of the temple, and you will find that my drawing is to scale where 1 foot = 4 pixels. Other details on locaton of pulpits, stairwells, windows, etc., were rough estimates. I appreciate your work and hope you appreciate mine as well. I will update the notes on each of the images to include a copyright statement, with thanks. Bytebear 03:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Upon rereading the above I find that I was unnecessarily harsh. Forgive me. I would point out that the drawings were based on my research some years ago, and with current knowledge (especially since the reconstruction of the Temple) I would draw some of them differently today, especially the fore attic area and the first floor. A good resource would be Don Colvin's Nauvoo Temple. Still, the drawings (both mine and yours) are good approximations. Best of luck!

A request from Sean Wolfington

Thanks for responding to my note. The issue on the article was partially resolved on Dec 24th but the notice you added to the article still remains on the article about me. The notice you added says "This article or section reads like an advertisement". I removed the reviews of the movie i made that i had added. Would it be possible for you to remove that notice? Thanks for taking the time to read this. Have a nice holiday. Sean.

It does read much better now. Thanks for the changes. Nice picture too. Bytebear 03:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you.

Thank you for your input and thank you for your advice. Have a great new year.Seanwolfington 04:35, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Ogden temple

no problem - I have set up a page for monitoring the temple pages only as I am ignoring my watchlist for now - see Special:Recentchangeslinked/User_talk:Trödel/Task2. I am planning to use regex to convert all the data at the comparison list to the new format and then just copy and paste it in. --Trödel 14:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Disney templates

Bytebear, you've done a great job with your solution to the fighting over the Disney templates — it is signs of a great mediator! ★MESSEDROCKER★ 00:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. :-) 1ne 10:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Your opinion please

You seem to be levelheaded and grasp the big picture. I am new to the wikipedian community (my reason for joining is here User:OfForByThePeople). You seem to be doing an excellent job at operating in a system dominated by partisan extremists representing various ideologies. Would you please take a look at my reasoning here Talk:Fox_News_Channel#Intro. I made a total of 3 entries. Thanks for looking out! (OfForByThePeople 04:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC))

Welcome to Wikipedia. The main goal of Wikipedia is to make an encyclopedia. I tend to read things as if I know nothing of the topic. Usually this works when a sentence stands out as strange or POV. I do agree that the statement about the leanings of Fox News do not belong in the intro, but only because I think intros shouldn't have opinions, but facts. That is the only opinion. It should, however, be stated in the article. Bytebear 04:09, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your timely response. When people word things in a suggestive manner for one article, and then are unwilling to support using the same suggestive manner for the articles of opposition is wrong. Subconsious manipulation is just plain wrong. This is a very big flaw with Wikipedia which is being ignored. Feelings do not make facts. Thank you for looking out! (OfForByThePeople 05:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC))

Some editors are better than others. Being objective is better than subjective, because we all have our opinions. The best approace is to require references. Then they cannot argue their POV, but only argue the references. Bytebear 05:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems you didn't feel the love on Talk:Fox News Channel, so I just wanted to extend a welcome to our little corner of Wikihell. The only article I've found more contentious is George W. Bush, for obvious reasons, but it's always interesting. Thanks for your opinion on the situation. I have responded on the talk page. AuburnPilot^talk 05:35, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I wouldn't have taken notice, but I was invited in. There are plenty of controveries to go around, religion and politics being the top of the list. I am not for censorship, but I think there is a time and place for everything, which is how I approach this particular issue. Bytebear 05:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Please take a look at my revision to the introduction of the article. I believe we call all agree that this is fair. Thanks for looking out. (OfForByThePeople 06:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC))

Temple Maps

The various lists and maps you have made for the temples look nice and seem to have required a lot of work, congratulations on that. I do have one concern however with the methodology of wholesale adding an interactive map and a regional list to each individual temple page. While I can understand some benefit in having a map indicating the location of a temple on a map for each page, having the large map with links along with an entire list of links to other regional temples in each page seems to be a little unwieldy at best, as the maps are quite large and the lists can take up a lot of space. They seem well suited to the "List of Temples" articles, but on each page seem a bit cumbersome.

I am hesitant about running through all the articles and deleting them in spite of my opinion without asking you first (as it was your work and effort to include them in each article), as well I wish there were some way of getting some consensus on the subject without spamming the talk page of each article. Any ideas?

Thank you again for the creation of the maps, though, it's a job well done. Arkyan 09:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I made the maps initially for the geographic list of temples, but I think they are helpful on the individual pages as well. For one, they break the temples into chunks so you don't have to deal with 120+ pages all at once. I made heavy use of templates on the temple pages, and that makes it much easier to maintain. I am all for designing a map that is smaller and cleaner, but I don't have the artistic talent to take on the task. I would not delete them though. They are a source of good information. My vote would be to update them. Bytebear 18:46, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:Temple of Peril Backards.jpg)

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Orphaned fair use image (Image:The cat and the canary.jpg)

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Despair

I think you might want to re-craft your joke about surrendering to irrationality. Someone might get the impression that you mean it. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 01:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry you think I am irrational, which is the only conclusion I can come to. I have not been discussion a specific change, but an overall tone, which I think is more important. Bytebear 01:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

? There are other conclusions. When I complain that you make complexity look like a blob that eats simplicity and destroys meaning, leaving no one sure of what we're talking about, it's not a good idea to say "surrender to it". That's all I'm saying. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 01:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you do need a break. You obviously do not understand my position. Bytebear 01:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I do understand; but in the hopes that I don't, I need the feeling to wear off. Best regards. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Email

Bytebear: Do you have an email address I could contact you at. I would like to talk to you about your programming skills, which isn't really proper for a wikipedia talk page. Thanks! Phefner 05:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Just click on the link in the left side menu that says "E-mail this user". Bytebear 06:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I just found that and sent it to you. Phefner 06:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)