Talk:Fred Noonan

Celestial navigation

I've put back "celestial" navigation skills to differentiate this method from the "radio" navigation they planned on using once they were in the vicinity of Howland. Noonan was an expert in "celestial", and apparently did get them to within miles of Howland, however it was the failure of the "radio navigation" element that thwarted their final approach.

Importance to aviation

Noonan's importance in the aviation industry is as the navigator who mapped several commercial routes throughout the Pacific for Pan Am during the 1930s. His apparent demise as Amelia Earhart's navigator is noteworthy but not central to his contribution to aviation, and in my opinion it would be misleading to mention his famous association with her in the first line of the article. Wyss 03:33, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Birth certificate

According to TIGHAR's website, the Noonan born in Illinois was Fred C. Noonan. They believe that Fred J. Noonan was born in Norwich, England. If this is true, and it turns out that Noonan perished on Gardner Island, then this would be ironic, because the name of the ship that was wrecked there was the SS Norwich.

In around 1998 a TIGHAR researcher/member did find a birth certificate for a Frederick Joseph Noonan born July 14, 1891 in Norwich, England. It's also true that there's a birth certificate in existence for a Fred C. Noonan born in Warren Co., Illinois in 1899 (almost certainly not the navigator, for a few reasons). The commonly accepted date and place of birth for the Pan Am navigator Frederick Joseph Noonan, is still April 4, 1893 in Cook County, Illinois, but there's no US birth certificate. I'll look into this a bit more. Re the Norwich City, yes, it could be ironic. I've also long had a "funny" feeling that if Noonan landed on Gardner, he may very well have been aware of the Norwich City's earlier fate and had likely even seen her in service when he was serving on merchant ships. Wyss 23:29, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• There's strong evidence Noonan stated in a voter registration application in Louisiana (1930) that he was born April 4, 1893 in Cook County, Illinois. This also fits more reliably with his maritime records in the US national archives. Wyss 00:08, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A baptismal entry confirms that he was born Frederick Joseph Noonan in Chicago april 4 1893.(Jackie Ferrari 22:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC))

Another irony is that the Frederick C(rescent) Noonan mentioned above actually sailed on the same ship as Fred Noonan (the IRIONA).(Jackie Ferrari 22:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC))

I have put Fred Noonan's genealogy onto the Noonan Family website. (Jackie Ferrari 22:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC))

Non-nickname "JoJo"

I have never come across Noonan as being referred to as JoJo. I wonder if the author might clarify this by providing a reference? (Jackie Ferrari 19:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC))

I've also read reams of material about FN, have never seen this nickname and was startled to notice it here. Moreover, I can't find even a shred of support for this and have removed it pending a reliable citation. Gwen Gale 03:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyway it seems to have been added by an anon IP which has been warned in the past about vandalism and is responsible for serial additions to pop culture articles, many of which seem more than dubious to me. Too bad this wasn't spotted earlier, the dodgy nickname's already been cloned onto dozens of scrapper sites across the web. Gwen Gale 03:55, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Spelling nitpick

The boson is a subatomic particle. The term 'bosun' is not included in most dictionaries as it is considered slang. The properly spelled rating is "Boatswain's Mate." 67.128.188.29Don Granberry.

Webster's 1913 edition defines boson as a boatswain with no hint of any deprecation. However a couple of modern dictionaries I looked at don't list this contraction of boatswain as boson, but as bosun and there's already a redirect of Bosun's mate to Boatswain so I've changed the article text to follow these leads. I must also say that in my experience the term bosun's mate is heard far more often than boatswain's mate but nonetheless your comment has helped point out a definite spelling issue in the article, deriving I believe, from the original source which does use the apparently archaic spelling boson's mate. Gwen Gale 05:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

cite requests

I'm not aware of any content disputes concerning this article, so I removed the cite requests because their presence could imply a wider dispute, for which there is no evidence, or a certain PoV, which is so far unasserted here much less supported here. If an editor wishes to add some completed citations, wonderful! Moreover, if an editor would like to dispute any contents in the article, I suggest discussing it here on the talk page, or editing content directly into the article narrative with supporting citations from reliable secondary citations. Gwen Gale 21:20, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Commemt

Gwen, those notes are there to identify reference sources- this is a typical marker. Put them back and I will start to edit the page accordingly. Check any other page and you will see the same markers- there were no reference sources given in this original article and for it to be considered a fully-researched work, there has to be citations given. Besides in your haste, you have also removed all editing including grammar, spelling and other edits. You have also removed the reference sections. IMHO, this is excessive reverting not editing. Bzuk 21:26 4 February 2007 (UTC).

I disagree. If you want to add some citations, please do so. If you were concerned about losing legitimate additions you shouldn't have flooded the article with empty format markers. Gwen Gale 21:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Erm, did you think I don't know what a {{fact}} marker is? Gwen Gale 21:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Not what I was saying, I indicated the use of the {{fact}} marker is typical and if you look at a page I am currently editing- the Convair B-36, you will see that the use of this citation request is not "flooding" the article, it merely indicates where the article should identify its sources. Its use does not indicated a challenge or errors in writing, merely a request to back up the information with credible sources. :}

Bzuk 22:01 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Thanks for the lecture. You're mistaken. Please add completed citations if you like, it would be very helpful. Gwen Gale 22:12, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with Bzuk. The citation marker is not an indication of disagreement - it simply notes an unsupported statement. They encourage people who visit the page to contribute citations. This is especially important for a bio page where allegation such as 'heavy drinking', etc. are made - see WP:BLP. I think they should go back in. Ronnotel 22:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

First Pan Am Clipper

In the references I have checked, the first Pan Am Clipper (Sikorsky S40 American Clipper) flew in October 1931 not March 1935 with Charles Lindbergh aboard, and no mention of Fred Noonan. Anyone shed light on this discrepency? Is it just a date mixup or have I missed Noonan on an earlier flight? The article states that he flew in San Francisco in 1935 which would make this a Sikorsky S42 (NC-824M) that was often grouped with the other "Clipper" fleet but was actually unnamed. Bzuk 1:01 5 February 2007 (UTC).

No, it's not a discrepency. The Lindbergh flight was almost entirely overland (via Alaska) for survey purposes and because of diplomatic troubles Tripp was unable to pursue far eastern routes for another 3 years or so and by then they were preparing for flights across the Pacific. Noonan was on the first Pan Am flight from San Francisco Bay to Honolulu. Gwen Gale 04:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Some questions

1. Is the licensed sea captain known for carrying a ship's sextant on flights, Noonan? 2. Why did he resign from Pan Am? I cannot find a reference for a date of leaving or any indication of why he left Pan Am. Could he have left specifically to join the Earhart World Flight? 3. Was he really a drinker? Only Goerner mentions this and only in the context of an automobile accident report where it is noted that one of the occupants of Noonan's car was drinking. Some of the film features about Earhart notably the Diane Keaton vehicle play up Noonan's drinking problem. Bzuk 04:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• Fred Noonan, sea captain, was known (among his colleagues) for carrying a maritime sextant on his flights.
• In 1937 he divorced his wife, left Pan Am, remarried and expressed a desire to form a navigating school. There is no evidence he left Pan Am specifically to participate in the world flight. Whilst there are no known surviving employment records from Pan Am relating to Fred, I believe there are some letters.
• There is no evidence Fred had any drinking problem which interferred with his work as a navigator. He did drink though, which was common back then. Goerner heard a rumour and repeated it as fact, which filtered into popular culture. The Keaton film has lots of inaccuracies and myths, that's one of them. It's like the reversed public perception Earhart didn't smoke... she did, like lots of Americans born around the turn of the century. Gwen Gale 15:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Presumed dead

It seems like it is standard biographical terminology to indicate whether someone who has been missing is presumed dead or not. Is this controversial? If so, why? Ronnotel 21:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Any legal declaration as to his fate happened long after 2 July 1937 (I've forgotten when he was declared dead but it was a few years later). Putting "presumed dead" with that date would be misleading, first because that may not have been the language used, second because a reader could misinterpret the meaning of the phrase mixed with the date. He went missing 2 7 1937, that's clear and fully supported. Finally, "presumed" could allow some readers to infer a doubt. Let there be none, Fred's dead. Cite the death certificate if you like though, that's ok with me. Gwen Gale 23:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I have no doubt that Fred is dead, but listing his status as 'missing' is clearly inappropriate. According to reports in the local papers (SF Chron, Oakland Tribune), Mary Bea had Fred declared dead by the Oakland Superior Court on 20 June 1938 so she could get remarried. I'll include that date to make it clear. Ronnotel 23:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

That's cool... missing 2 July 1937, declared dead 20 June 1938 ... all supported (the 1938 date sounds familiar). Gwen Gale 23:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I revised the birth/death dates in line with WP:Date Ronnotel 23:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:Date doesn't support the omission of documented information. I've put both dates in the header. Gwen Gale 23:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

There's no need to include date of last sighting in the birth/death part. It's included in later text. Ronnotel 23:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Why are you trying to remove supported information from the header of this article? Do you dispute that Noonan went missing on 2 July 1937? Gwen Gale 23:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. I'm just following the format specified in WP:Date section 1.9. The date he went missing is still included in the lead, where it belongs. Ronnotel 23:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm - you've added a factual dispute, I don't think any facts are in dispute, are they? Ronnotel 23:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be disputing the missing date of 2 July 1937. Do you dispute it or not? Gwen Gale 00:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Gwen, for the third time, I do not dispute it (although to be fair there doesn't seem to be any documentation for it). I simply dispute whether we should violate clearly articulated WP policy as to where the information should go. It belongs in the lead paragraph - but not as part of the birth/death dates. Can you please acknowledge that we should follow WP:Date for this information? Ronnotel 00:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:Date says nothing about "missing" dates. Fred Noonan's disappearance on 2 July 1937 is widely documented. The date of his death is unknown. Although he likely died in 1937, likely sometime in July, we do not know when he died. He was declared dead in June 1938. There is no lack of precision or clarity in listing both dates in his b-d bracket. There is no need to provide readers with an ambiguous "circa" date when the available documentation supports only the date he went missing and the date he was declared dead. Gwen Gale 00:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Policies exist for a reason. The reason missing is not included at WP:Date is because it's use is unencyclopedic when citing the birth and death dates in a biography. It is a fact that we don't know with certainty when Fred died, hence, circa is entirely appropriate. To be honest, I think you're being somewhat insensitive about this. Ronnotel 00:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Instead of trying to psychoanalyze me, which is a violation of WP policy and OT, please provide a citation from WP or anywhere else to support your assertion that "missing... is unencyclopedic when citing the birth and death dates in a biography." Thank you. Gwen Gale 00:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Assertion retracted. Apology offered. Mea culpas all around. But it's not my job to explain WP:Date - it's your job to explain the compelling reason to violate it. I'm all ears. Ronnotel 00:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

• Please please provide a specific citation, which is to say a string of text, from WP:Date or any other WP policy page to support your assertion that I have violated WP:Date.

• Please be aware that this article has listed the missing date in the b-d bracket for a very long time with no dispute from any editor. This is strong evidence that it's not controversial, misleading, confusing, unhelpful, or ambiguous. Gwen Gale 00:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:Date shows the acceptable forms for b/d listing. If this article were to be submitted for consideration for WP:Good, it would certainly be required that b/d be listed in the correct format to pass. There are a lot of things in a lot of WP articles that have been incorrect for a long time. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be fixed. Ronnotel 00:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

And btw, do we really need a fact dispute tag? I think we simply discussing where information should go, not what the information is. Ronnotel 01:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we need a fact dispute tag. You have removed his missing date from the article and inserted an ambiguous death date when no date of actual death is available in the documented record.

All you have provided are assertions. You have not provided the support I requested.

• You have not provided a specific citation, which is to say a string of text, from WP:Date or any other WP policy page to support your assertion that I have violated WP:Date.

• You have not provided a citation from WP or anywhere else to support your assertion that "missing... is unencyclopedic when citing the birth and death dates in a biography."

Please provide these requested citations to support your assertions, thanks. Gwen Gale 01:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)