Talk:Scout rifle

This Article is all opinion, and should be deleted or re-written

While it is true that the Scout Rifle is popular among the shooting press, it is far from the proven concept that this article suggests. There are several problems with this particular Wiki. 1. It fails to cite sources, and merely re-states popular opinion. (Most of the sources listed in the bibliography are not quoted at all, and state alternative conclusions. It appears to me that the author merely 'copy and pasted' from some other bibiligraphy.) 2. It looks more like and advertisement for Jeff Cooper than anything else 3. It fails to point out the problems of the Scout Rifle concepts such as low rate of fire, fragility of front mounted optics under harsh conditions..... and so forth. 4. The portion about shorter barrels being just as efficient due to faster burning modern powders is simply incorrect.

I could continue.... but I think I've made my point. From an encyclopedic viewpoint, this article is far below even Wiki standards.

A ALTERNATIVE viewpoint of the Scout rifle is this one, written by a fellow name Nguyenh, who make good points. It is as follows:

To whom it may concerns,

Few weeks ago I posted a comment regarding the Scout rifle and Mr. Cooper’s philosophy of the Scout rifle as the tool of the trade for recon personnel (published in various gun magazines during the last seven years). Since then I have received several email ranging from yahoo to flaming. To clear the air, I would like to explain in details of my previous post.

The discussion here is strictly limited to the Scout rifle, its concept and proposed application for recon personnel.

My previous posting was based on personal experiences in Vietnam as an infantry rifleman , 1972-1975. While not formally trained as a scout, the necessity of the situation put me in numerous missions into enemy territory to gather data and monitor troop movements, concentrations, logistic lines and sometimes harrassment of enemy rear echelons as a part of psy-war. The battlefields were very fluid and more often than not the lines were neither clearly defined nor dugged in unless it was a firebase. To that extent, engagements, be it scout or not, were brief and furiuos with little time for calculations or carefully aimed fire. It was the deadly game of cat and mouse as the adversary also put out scout hunter team to counter our missions.

On scout missions, the team was made up of two to five men. The duration was mostly two to ten days. Resupply was rare. Medivac was almost out of the question. The scout team had to live off the land if necessary and be familiar with the local terrain, customs, habits, and resources. The normal combat load was 200 rounds ammo, 3 frag grenades, 1 smoke, 1 concussion grenade, 1 phosphorous, 1 claymore. In addition two water canteen, dried foods (no canned food) for the planned duration, batteries for radio, first aid kids, water purification tablets, knife, map, compass, insect repellents, pills for diarrhea, trip wires and last but not least one set of civilian clothing. The load per man usually amounted up to 35 lbs including personal weapon. The weapons of choice were XM177, M16, M1 and M2 carbines (yes, WWII vintage), and more often than not AK47s. .45 cal submachine guns were not chosen due to the ammo heavy weight. 9mm Swedish K subs were used occasionally.

In long range extended duration (20 days) scout missions, the entire team were armed with AK47s for two reasons: a) Be able to replenish with captured ammo b) The Kalashnikovs gunfire sound is very distinct to the M16s. The use of AK47 in enemy territory aids in escape and confuse the adversaries.

While the mission of the scouts was to avoid confrontation, half of the time that was not possible. Engagements were usually brief firefights with the opponents possessing superior firepower. On scout and harassment missions, a sniper was added to the team. His specialty tool was usually M1D Garands, scoped 8mm German Mausers, scoped M14s, captured Moisin Nagant sniper rifles. Only once did I see a state-of-the-art Winchester M70 with heavy barrel. The sniper carried his demovable scope (where applicable) in a separate case for protection. He sometimes carried sidearms. But his security was mostly dependent on his spotter. On sniping missions, the team was usually made up of three men. The sniper, his spotter, and the radio man.

I have never heard of or seen anyone attempted to use a bolt action rifle on recon mission other than the sniper. Sniper engaged targets at minimum range of 300 yards and most of the time the battlefield was his choice, not his adversaries’ . The preferred range was 500 yards to give the sniper more time to engage and to keep the team out of enemy’s effective rifle fire range. If range is under 300 yards, the team most likely chose to lay low or pulled back. Most sniping engagements lasted less than half hour. The sniping team had to retreat quickly before the opponents got a bearing on them.

With the background described above, here are the reasons why I would not choose a Scout rifle

1) Limited firepower. Fire round magazine, even loaded by stripper clips, is too smallish unless used strictly for sniping. Reloading a bolt gun, even if stripper clip is employed, is not as easy a task as popping a fresh magazine home.

2) Bolt manipulation is clumsy in prone position, which was employed frequently in real life combat.

3) In the heat of combat with adrenaline pumping, it is not easy for a gunner to remember to rechamber his round. Even if he is trained to work the bolt and rechamber by reflex, there was always the chance of an interruption immediately after he pulled the trigger which ended up with his failure to rechamber a fresh round......and guess what happened when the next target loomed up to shoot at him.

4) The bolt action posed a serious problem with shooting on the left side barricade. Hands have to shift positions in order to work the bolt. This maneuver required excessive limbs movements which gave away the shooter’s position.

5) It was not uncommon where a recon person did not have both hands dedicated to the task of manipulating his weapon......say dragging a wounded comrade along.

6)While full auto fring was not encouraged and infrequently used by recon to conserve limited ammo resources, sometimes the full auto at close range provided tremendous psychological effect to confuse and to delay the adversaries’ pursuit.

7) The most frequent range of kills was 50 yards. At that range, a scoped rifle was a liability. Be it conventionally mounted on the receiver or on the barrel forward of the receiver, the rough combat condition most likely damaged the scope and rendered the weapon useless. In tropical environment where monsoon rain was frequent, swamps, wetlands, rivers, muddy fields were abundant, scope was too prone to malfunction if left on a rifle all the time.

8) The accuracy advantage of a bolt gun over a semis at the kill range of less than 100 yards against man size target was of no additional advantage. In combat, unlike sport hunting, there was not a need to place the bullet precisely for an instant knock down and kill. On the contrary, a wounded adversary would slow down his squad and required at least another combatant’s first aid attention.

9) The accuracy of a bolt gun can only be utilized to the advantage of the recon team if used strictly for sniping at range greater than 300 yards. In this case the slow rate of fire, the excessive body movement to work the bolt, the slow target acquisition with a receiver mounted scope were insignificant.

So that was why I stated I’d rather have an humble 30M1 Carbine for recon over the Scout. At this time I have not yet seen or heard of any military branches, foreign or domestic, opting the Scout rifle as a tool for their recon team. If you know otherwise, I would like to be informed.

The Scout rifle set up is neither an ideal sniper weapon due to the low power scope and limited field of view associated with an extended eye relief optics plus the light and short barrel nor is it an ideal weapon for close in, flash fire fight against a numerically superior opponent. At best it is an expensive eye-catching big game hunting rifle in rough terrain due to its light weight. Is it my choice to pack for hunting trip??? I don't see why a Remington Model 7 (6 1/4 lbs) with synthetic stock and a conventional 3-9x40 scope cannot outperform a Scout rifle for one third of the price. That is unless I want something out of the ordinary for conversation around campfires.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated. Please email to me.

Best regards

12.96.65.14 12:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Can we get a photo? I'd think a photo from someone that owns one wouldn't violate any copyright laws. 210.79.184.101 13:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)