Talk:Juggalo

This article was nominated for deletion on 17 March 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Archives
Oct 2005 - May 2006

Archived

The talk page was getting entirely too long. I've archived prior discussion, and will continue to do so as the talk page grows. See the archive box for where I moved the old stuff.--Rosicrucian 14:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

In the news

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/crime/story/5878178p-5211501c.html --Xyzzyplugh 12:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003121207_insaneclowns12m.html Gary Seven 02:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is an article I felt compelled to share after noticing that only the negative articles from Seattle newspapers were linked here. I am a Juggalette out here in Seattle, and my juggalo bf and myself were horrified at the Tacoma poser crimes, but were pleased when this article ran amid the Juggalo bashing chaos:

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=juggalo18&date=20060718&query=juggaloThesetrixaintforkids 04:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge Proposal

Oppose. Merge has been proposed with no prior discussion and no statement of what the reasoning behind it is. Juggalo article also refers to an annual music festival which involves multiple Psychopathic recording artists, not just ICP. Juggalo subculture continues to receive media attention independant of ICP, particularly issues regarding self-proclaimed Juggalos and gang violence. ICP article is already large and fairly cluttered, and both articles would suffer from the merge.--Rosicrucian 00:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose per Rosicrucian. Kasreyn 23:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose, however i strongly feel this page needs a second look at.The juggsd86 16:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree- I don't think the fans of ANY band are significant enough to even merit an entry at all. Merge any relevant information to a new "Fans" section on ICP's article, and get this out of here.

Vandalism

Why this article is such a lightning rod for vandalism I'll never know. The anonymous IPs I sort of expect, but ordinary registered users, who arguably ought to know better, seem prone to it too.--Rosicrucian 19:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

It's almost as if they think we wouldn't extend equal protection from vandalism to such an "unimportant" issue! I for one treat all vandalism I see the same. My guess as to its frequency is pop teen culture, where identifying oneself with a band or group is seen as sufficient excuse to mock or attack others. Most of the vandalism I've seen to ICP related articles has been very sophomoric in tone, supporting this theory. It's just kids being kids. Kasreyn 20:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

pssst... they vandalize it because it is ridiculous to have an encyclopedia entry for a group of fans of a specific band. I don't find a Boy George Fan Club entry anywhere on Wiki. Why these guys? Is it because they imitate the artist that they like? Been done before. Many times. Is it because their counter-culture has been linked to violence? The same could be said for fans of other specific artists. They all had silly names for their group, as well. To me, there is nothing distinctive or spectacular about a person who dresses up like a musician that they like. Their demand for noteworthiness does not make them noteworthy. This sort of entry invites vandalism because it covers a topic that is not the forte or intent of Wikipedia. - Forridean 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, we need a section for "These guys are losers." Kasreyn 23:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I would like to comment on the recent reversion due to "vandalism to last revision by The Juggler." I believe this accusation is in error because there was no change made to the article by this reversion. The changes that I made to the article was a re-wording of certain phrases in the "Alleged Juggalo Crime" section that were either not in an encyclopedic tone or poorly and vaguely worded. The Juggler 20:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Violent Juggalos

I've created a new section for the issue of Juggalo-related gang violence. This is not some sort of invitation to go out and find every news article you can find on Juggalos behaving badly. I've also added a link to the Jacob Robida incident. Kasreyn 19:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm working to improve the section. Thanks to Rosicrucian for your help! Editors should note that:

• The section title indicates that all these incidents are only allegedly involving Juggalos, and therefore there is no reason to repeat "alleged Juggalos" within the specific incidents;
• Date of the most recent attacks was erroneously reported as "week of July 14th"; this was the dateline of the news report, but the attacks are said to have occurred on the nights of June 19th and 20th.
• The attackers are self-proclaimed Juggalos. It would be inappropriate for Wikipedia to conclude that they are Juggalos, not to mention POV. This has been noted.
• Added information on seven suspects arrested, three charged with assault and robbery. I don't think we need any more detail at this time until there are further developments.
• "Allegedly attacked, robbed," etc. "Alleged" wasn't needed here; no one disputes that the attacks occurred. What is a matter of uncertainty is the identity of the attackers.

I'd also just like to point out that I'm a little disappointed in the AP's and Reuters's coverage. The AP story, run in the Seattle link but most likely a News-Tribune feed, seems to demonstrate bias against ICP (they go out of their way to pick two of the band's darkest album titles, in an attempt to show the reader only the negative side of ICP), not to mention their unnecessary and inaccurate report on Robida (they claim Robida had no anti-gay material on his website, but he had Nazi material on his website, and anyone who has studied Nazism knows that they hated gays). They claim that Robida's homepage was full of ICP references but neglect to mention the Neo-Nazi references; I can only conclude that they are leaving some information out in order to lead the reader to believe that ICP alone, rather than Nazism, motivated Robida's actions. If AP were truly unbiased, they would mention both the Nazi references and the ICP references and leave it to the reader to figure out which was his motivation. Disappointing, AP.

I'll continue to work on the section but I'd love it if we could find a more accurate (and more neutral) source than that. Kasreyn 00:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Robida has been a subject of a fair amount of debate on this talkpage. Check the archive link if you want to get a sense of how much conflict there has been on how to present him here, if at all.--Rosicrucian 16:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I can understand why there's a lot of concern over his inclusion... somehow the idiot (Robida) didn't notice all the times ICP rapped about bigotry being an evil thing. So I can certainly see that Juggalos are very concerned to have it be known that they reject Robida's claim to being one. But the thing is, readers are likely to have heard something about it, possibly from one of the biased sources I cite above, and they may come here looking for information. We can either say nothing, and readers can go on mistakenly believing that ICP was the only factor behind Robida's actions, or we can include info on him to point out to the readers the likelihood that Nazism was a much greater influence on his actions. I'd say we should include it, because we clearly can't trust the mainstream media to give ICP a fair shake. Kasreyn 21:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, though given that he has his own article, simply linking to it with a brief summary and working to improve his article may be the better course of action.--Rosicrucian 23:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed claim

I've just removed the following from the article:

• Sunnyvale, CA July 21 2006, Juggalo gang deals drugs, robs and stalks users. [[1]]

First off, the writeup is not NPOV. There are claims that an alleged Juggalo gang deals drugs, robs, and stalks users. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.

Additionally, the linked source seems rather... bizarre... to say the least. It claims a lot more than the Wikipedia write-up suggests. Here's its headline:

• HEADLINE: NEO-NAZI JUGGALO CULT-GANG IN SUNNYVALE

Under which are such examples of journalistic integrity and adherence to the unvarnished truth as:

• "Anti-Gay Juggalo Gangs and the Sunnyvale Police are about to kill a man."
• "a Juggalo cult-gang"
• "juggalos" – self-proclaimed Neo-Nazi skinheads"

In general, the blog article is an attempt to push the case of this guy, who claims that he is being stalked, harassed, and threatened and that the Sunnyvale police refuse to protect him. However, WP:RS instructs us that blogs and personal websites are not to be considered reliable sources.

Unless a less biased and more reliable source is found, and a more NPOV writeup is adopted, this material should remain out of the article. Kasreyn 23:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Dead Links

Some of the news stories linked to have since had the news stories taken down, so I've removed the links. Remember that local news sites often will not archive their news, so news links need to be checked periodically to make sure they still work.--Rosicrucian 15:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. The most frustrating example is ICP's press statement on the Robida affair, which I can no longer find in their website's archive. And it appears from Google that not a single other organization or news service bothered to report on the statement or quote the band. (Just another sad example of how ICP's side of things is never discussed in the mainstream media.) Wikipedia provides the only hits for the quote. So, it would appear to an impartial, new editor to these pages that there is no way to know if the quote is for real. Can you help me by looking through ICP's website archives and trying to find a live link to the statement? Because if it's really gone, the only remaining solution would be to email the webmaster and ask that he create a special page to host the statement. Kasreyn 19:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I found a Village Voice article that quotes it, and have fixed the link on Robida's article.--Rosicrucian 21:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Notice that in that same article, a reference to another Village Voice writer's "wiki roundup" says that this article makes no mention of Juggalo violence, and accuses us of a whitewash. Note that now, we do indeed have a section on Juggalo violence, so we've definitely improved! This should be considered not only a source for the ICP statement on Robida, but as definite proof that the section on Juggalo violence should be retained: it is what readers are wanting information about when they come to this article. Kasreyn 05:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation Needed

Four of the "Alleged Juggalo Crime" entries have not been cited from any reliable source, does this not damage the POV of this article? These claims could be firsthand reports, word-of-mouth rumors, or even outright lies for all we know. These claims should be presented in some article if they can be cited as being true and documented cases, but otherwise I believe they should be removed from the article. I would not take the liberty of removing these claims myself, nor should any other user; this issue should be discussed here before action should be taken. The Juggler 23:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Everything2

Everything2 is not a valid source to cite. It is not a reference work, and does not seek to be. In the future, do not cite it within a Wikipedia article.--Rosicrucian 04:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Juggalo Radio

Wikipedia articles are not appropriate places to plug internet radio stations, regardless of whether they are related to the article at hand.--Rosicrucian 14:50, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

And it seems it just gets added back in.--Rosicrucian 17:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I've made a broad sweep of the articles for all the Psychopathic Records artists, and it seems the same link [2] was spammed across nearly all of them. I've removed what I could, but it seems an anonymous IP, likely the site owner, is already reverting my edits.--Rosicrucian 17:46, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Gah.

Typos in my edit summaries make me sad. Oh well. I should have mentioned in that edit summary that I also tweaked the violent incidents header to something less unwieldy, but hopefully no less accurate.--Rosicrucian 04:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

OR and Citation Needed

Oh for crying out loud, let's not riddle the whole article with OR tags. Citation Needed tags are much less obtrusive, and we can put the OR tag at the top if it's that extensive.--Rosicrucian 00:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

POV?

I'm kinda new but this seems like POV in its most blatant sense.

The juggalo family overlooks race, size and class and combines to make one of the most wicked families in existance.

Mainly the most wicked part if your slow.

It probably should be this:

The juggalo family overlooks race, size and class and combines to make one of the most loyal and welcoming families in existance.

The term 'Wicked' is a way to describe it on your own grounds, but not on a wikipedia article.The juggsd86 16:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it should read: Juggalo's claim to overlook race, size and class and combines to make one of the most loyal and welcoming families in existance. Fyrre 02:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

good call.The juggsd86 19:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

radio show

Apparently I'm the only person who listens to Sirius and heard the whole interview. The whole show is available on the Usenet, if any of you doubt what was said. To claim what they said was in a joking matter, then everything they said during the interview was said in a joking matter, as thier tone, inflection, and other aspects of speech did not change at all for that question--pahsons 01:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

For starters, it's unsourced so we can't include it. Unless you have a reliable link to a transcript we can't put it in. What's more, this is the Howard Stern show. Obviously it was tongue-in-cheek. To say otherwise is baseless speculation.--Rosicrucian 17:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Ask and you shall receive

http://www.marksfriggin.com/news06/9-25.htm#mon

'Howard took some phone calls for the guys. One guy asked if they're okay with the Juggalos going out and mugging people. They said that they're all for it'

When one of them claimed to be a ninja, he then said he was joking, after going into a lengthy description of where he trained and what he could do. None of that from either one on the mugging comment.

I do not think that is a source that we can cite either. For one, it only summarizes, not transcribes. Ergo, we can't really pull direct quotes from it. It's a fan project, not an official transcript.--Rosicrucian 22:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Planning for the Eighth Annual Gathering

I think this should be deleted. I've been scouring the net searching for any relation between Psychopathic Records and the Indian Ranch and Wiki is the only source available. I've checked all the Juggalo news sites and have not found anything about this whatsoever. If an announcement had been made, it would have been plastered all over the official webpages of Psychopathic Records. But.. If you have a source, I'd love to see it!

"Whoop, whoop, Juggalo!"

As I've explained numerous times in the edit summaries, it doesn't matter if "Whoop, whoop, Juggalo!" is the "correct" term. We have to go with what the cited article claims they said.--Rosicrucian 20:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

juggalo life

I am a Juggalo... I am an individual guided by Light... I know who I am and who I want to be. I recognize that the path to Shangri La requires an open mind... I shall not judge. I am part of a Family... I shall Love my Family as I would my blood. I shall do my Family no harm as I know what is done to others shall surely be done to me... I shall strive to honor my Family and not disgrace their name... I am a Ninja... I have no Fear. I do not Fear the unknown fore I embrace the wonders of the world around me and the differences in others. I shall meet adversity head on fore I am a Survivor. Nothing can stop my Shine. I am Human... I recognize my flaws. I shall strive to change the things I can control and seek strength for the things I cannot. I shall cherish the teachings of my ancestors and the Family who have fallen before me I have Love With Love there is Unity and Strength. Love does not hurt nor does it seek to destroy. I too, shall not hurt or seek to destroy. With Love in my Heart, Love for my Family and Love for the Carnival... I shall find my path to Shangri La —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.56.8.236 (talk) 14:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

Amen, Broaha. MMFWCL The juggsd86 20:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

uh..yeah...ok...

THE above whatever the fuck was never ever released by an official psychopathic source and since time and again psychopathic has stated if its not from on eof our websites its not legit so i dont think this bullshit needs to be here since some fanboy created it and us treal juggalos dont like biters

The above.....thing - is certainly interesting and is the true message of this music; though it is best left unspoken. However, it is not the discussion of an encyclopedic entry - The_Juggler

picture

I believe the picture should have a different caption. i know what it means, but to someone dim enough, "a 'juggalo' in his environment" may suggest that juggalos live in the forest. The juggsd86 04:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

lmao