User talk:Abelelkrim

is good!!

Re: Burroughs and Jajouka

Yes, I have noticed that this has been an ongoing pattern, and from a very diverse list of ips. Alas, what must be done must be done, and I will continue to revert their vandalism. Thanks for your message. ---Charles 02:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

As for the issue of spelling, I only want consistency. The anonymous user keeps changing the spelling in an web address, and that cannot be allowed. Within the articles there should be consistency, after all this is an encyclopedia. As for the charges of "libel," I have advised the anonymous user making the changes tonight to either provide evidence of same or cease his vandalism. In a moment, I am going to report the matter to an administrator. This has gone on quite long enough. ---Charles 02:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I have reported this on an administrator's noticeboard, so hopefully some kind of action will be taken. If this individual, and/or others, have a legitimate complaint let them make it in a public forum with evidence. Otherwise, as you say, they are just vandals. ---Charles 03:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree if they add a relevant address that is ok but deletion , esp continuously is just vandalism

I have now left a message with FayssalF and I hope that he will assist us in addressing this issue. Thanks, once again, brother, for your continued interest and concern with this issue. Peace. ---Charles 03:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like to get on with some research and writing but these anon ips are repetitive.

Abelelkrim 15:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments

This User has been deleting my comments so have reverted them and his last major edit on Bachir Attar. However the page needs other POV removed which I will attempt later.

Abelelkrim 17:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Abelelkrim. Can you please provide me w/ the differences? Thanks. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 17:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll have a look at that tomorrow. I just got to go offline now. You can contact User:Mel Etitis if it is urgent. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 18:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments from BKLisenbee

Hi Abdelekrim. The information you have written about me reverting an article on Bachir Attar was because someone vandalized it and put in totally incorrect information about him being with the Master Musicians of Joujouka, when it he is clearly affiliated with his own group, the Master Musicians of Jajouka.

I do not wish to have your comments on the talk page and ask that you delete them yourself as you merely show links to the Paul Bowles site. You seem to think that putting in any information on anyone Bowles knew, including Hamri and Brion Gysin on a chronology page disqualifies me from doing anything with Wikipedia. You are in effect, censoring free speech. What was written is a fact. Hamri was regarded as a petty thief and was illiterate, and that is in Michelle Greene's book "Paul Bowles and the Literary Renegades in Tangier."

Additionally, someone keeps putting in the slanderous references to Brink.com when it was already agreed that these are inappropriate links.

Wikipedia clearly states that dubious sources and unnecessary trivia on living persons is to be avoided. It is not necessary to mention anything as trivial as someone drinking vodka. Thus that link on Attar's page need not me used as a useful reference since the party who put it in obviously has a POV bias against Bachir Attar.

I would like you to remove all you comments from my talk page, links included, as you seem to think I am not a reliable source of accurate information. I am sure that you wish to maintain neutrality in Wikipedia, and thus would suggest that you do not edit my changes and order me not to do anything or I will go to an Administrator at wikipedia. Thanks for your understanding. Nice try, but I'm afraid you are equally biased in attempting to censor my edits. I stick to proven facts, no some "vandalism" accusations which have been loosely bandered about. The brink.com links are not to be used. The differences in two versions that Fayssal asked about are the one which was vandalized making Bachir Attar leader of Joujouka when it had been Jajouka, and the malicious trival about someones drinking. Should someone mention that Mohamed Hamri was a big drinker? I don't think it serves the legitimate purposes of biographical information on Wikipedia to mention such things. I think you may agree about this. Who cares about some ranter on "babelmedia" says? It really is not a good link anyway. There is far more important stuff on the Web. It is also a fact that Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones recorded with Bachir Attar and the Master Musicians of Jajouka, and since they were both a friend of Bowles you should have no objection if you wish to be accurate. It's a proven fact, pure and simple. There is no POV bias, just the facts is what I and you and everyone working with Wikipedia should be concerned about. True and facts. BKLisenbee

No time to address all your points but you have not checked those links they link to other sites too. Your site promotes a POV and demonstrates that you work with Cherie Nutting, and Bachir Attar and promote the latter. Michelle Green's book contains a lot of information about a lot of people. Its full title is "The Dream at the End of the World: Paul Bowles and the Literary Renegades in Tangier" in case you want to look at it.

The Babelmed piece is the most recent interview with Bachir Attar written by an Arab writer who spent time with Attar. It is not a "rant" and appears to have been organised in co operation with Bachir Attar as he is interviewed there. The comments re the subjects drinking strike me as at odds with the subjects' claims to lead a Sufi musical group. As this is a controversial issue I think friends and business partners of the subject should exclude themselves from editing.I don't agree with your cherry picking the media you wish to use and trying to argue against legit media. I have already contacted an Admin. re this.

I will be back later and will attempt to remove any POV in the current article.

I don't know what "Nice try", means . You have been vandalising and spreading POV for months on Wikipedia and it needs to stop!

Abelelkrim 10:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Abdelkekrim: You are not correct that I work with Cherie Nutting or Bachir. For your information, I have also met Mohamed Hamri and both Frank Rynne and Joe Ambrose. Your accusations of vandalism are totally false. Of course I know the full name of Michelle Greene's book; I am not ignorant, and have read and possess that book. Someone's reversion to an inaccurate claim and presentation on Bachir Attar's page that he does not live in the village of Jajouka is patently untrue. He has long lived in the village. You need to check the facts before you revert to what is not true. Nor is your implication that I am a "business partner" of Bachir Attar's correct. Who is better to edit that someone who knows in detail about a subject on Wikipedia? I have edited Wikipedia's entry for Paul Bowles. Someone else is vandalizing this article on Bachir Attar and it certainly is not me. Though I know Hamri was a big drunk, I would never think of putting that on his page, yet you and someone else in the pro-Joujouka camp feels comfortable smearing Bachir Attar and the group he leads because it suits their campaign of slander. BKLisenbee

Re BKLisenbee deleting my comments, don't delete my comments on my Talk page or my comments on other discussion pages

The above user is campaigning on Wikipedia on a very much debated area re Jajouka, Bachir Attar, etc. His POV is proven below but he keeps deleting this post. BKLisenbee do not edit my talk page!!!!!!or remove my commnets. This is against all the rules you quote so much. The Babelmed

• Article refs Bachir Attar history and his drinking eg vodka

is generally a soft piece of journalism promoting Bachir Attar save for the journalist noting Attar's drinking. A Sufi trance musician in a Halal region of Morocco drinking two bottles of vodka in a sitting strikes me as noteworthy. Bachir Attar co-operated on the article so your cherry picking is obtuse and obviously designed to protect the image of this star.

That is not what we are here for, neither it it our job to denigrate. However, Mr. Attar is a controversial figure as is shown on the talk pages and archived talk pages on related pages show and also in actual articles.. Therefore it a more than noteworthy point!!!! It may be a central issue in the divisions that seem to plague Jajouka.

My post again is below, leave it here until admin comes back to me.

Below is the deleted post:

[User: BK Lisenbee]

It was not the personal involvement that you below justify that I was referring to. However the below statement seems to indicate that you were not “personally involved” until two people who advocate a differing POV ie they work/ or are somehow advocates of the The Master Musicians of Joujouka did an interview you object to.

You posted the following on your User page

“I am not "obiously a part of the story", as you say. I was only drawn into this because Frank Rynne & Joe Ambrose slandered Paul Bowles and libeled myself and a friend, who still live in Tangier”

The above quote from your posting on your user page is actually stating that you not” obviously a part of the story” but your personal involvement is justified because of an interview referred to above. This is confirming that you have a POV.

As your deletions followed a pattern of recent vandalism they gave great cause for concern.

However the personal involvement I referred in my post on your user page "Personal Involvement" was to do with the below information which I did not feel I needed to go into as I was sure you were aware of your involvement in the affairs of Bachir Attar

So here is a little of what I found about this on the web. Some issues were previously raised on archived discussions pages.

You are webmaster and designer of [http/www.paulbowles.org] a website associated with the Paul Bowle’s Estate some of the beneficiaries of which included Ms Cherie Nutting (Bachir Attar's manager) and a Philip Ramey.

See

• Arts web page detailing one aspect of your involvement in paul bowles site

Site states “Responsibility Lisenbee, Kenneth (Designer) - Responsibility PaulBowles.org and the estate of Paul and Jane Bowles (Copyright_holder)” The website you run contains negative references to Mohamed Hamri and you have been editing the Wiki page on him.

see

• Paul Bowles site you run

Your website promotes and links to

• [1] Bachir Attar’s website and has recently helped promoting a show by his group.

• Bachir Attar promo and link to his commercial site on your website

The ex wife of Bachir Attar and current manager of his group, Cherie Nutting writes for your site. Her photographs are also used throughout. You say you met Miss Nutting and Bachir Attar as they visited Mr. Bowles in Tangier.

In light of the above and the below links and facts I am afraid that I can not accept your statement at face value. You are also listed as having travelled with Miss. Nutting to events

On the below site

See

• Travellling to USA with C. Nutting

Quote “November 1, 2000, Paul Bowles' ashes were buried alongside his parents and grandparents at the Lakemont Cemetery in Lakemont, New York, just a few miles from Seneca Lake in the Fingerlakes area of New York State. A small group of people made the journey to honor their old friend; among them, Phillip Ramey, Kenneth Lisenbee, Joseph A. McPhillips III, Cherie Nutting, Virginia Spencer Carr, Claude Nathalie Thomas, Irene Herrmann and Philip Krone.”

Therefore I would again suggest in the strongest Wiki way that you cease to edit the various Jajouka Joujouka and related pages which you have previously edited with a pro Master Musicians of Jajouka/Bachir Attar and anti Master Musicians of Joujouka/ Mohamed Hamri bias. These edits are sometimes very minor I will admit such as putting links to Master Musicians of Joujouka in different positions to highlight your friend and colleague's pages Master Musicians of Jajouka. However you have also completely changed Bachir Attar in the last few days.

This is not exactly the same as editing your own page but it is against Wiki rules and good behaviour.

Again I must reiterate that it was the closeness of your recent edits to blocked Anon IPs who vandalised links that brought your edits to my attention. These IPs' edits are consitant with your POV edits.

This Jajouka Joujouka mess needs to be straightened out and is best left to people who are not directly involved in either sides' business affairs. Please respect the rules of this site.

One last note after your link deletions you have now started editing, amongst other pages, Jajouka This page is under discussion and certain users feel that the official Moroccan government spelling should be adopted with links from the two names used by the recording groups for clarity. I shall revert your copy edits later.

Abelelkrim 10:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Abelelkrim 22:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Reverting blocked userUser: BK Lisenbee

The subject of the above has been temporarily blocked. However his edits remain!!! It is very difficult to distinguish anon IP edits from his so it is going to take some work to check his edited pages for POV and random changes he has made to external and internal links on pages.

Help!!

Abelelkrim 02:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)