Talk:Fenwick High School (Oak Park, Illinois)

Puff-piece

This puff-piece, totally devoid of primary sources, has been put together by anonymous IPs who don't respond to warnings, several of which have been issued by myself and other editors. Every day it reads more like an ad, and I would encourage anyone who has a little time on their hands to spend it cleaning this mess up. I gave it a bit of a try, but couldn't verify almost any of it anywhere except on the school's own site, and even if I accepted all of that as fact, there were still claims (only HS in the US owned by the Dominican Order, for example) that not even the school's site reflected. (added by Poindexter Propellerhead | Talk at 17:16, May 27, 2007)

We're getting some sources and adding cites now. This will help tone down the PR flavor to it.
—  Jim Dunning  talk  :  20:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Fenwick sourcing

One of the areas we're working on is to verify much of the information in the article and provide verifiable references. Most of the "facts" in the article have no sources attached to them and will be deleted soon if none can be found and added; this will effectively gut the article. We alert interested editors to this need (and danger) with maintenance tags, such as {{Fact}}, {{cn}} and {{Primarysources|date=May 2007}}. However, one or two editors have been routinely removing them without making improvements to the sources issue (and have also been adding more "facts" without sources, thus adding to the problem). Two things happen as a result: (1) interested editors are not alerted as quickly to the important work to be done, and (2) readers are not alerted that the "facts" they are reading have not been vetted and may not be accurate. We certainly appreciate the interest these editors have in improving this article and hope they continue to contribute, but please do not remove maintenance tags without first completely resolving the issue in question.
—  Jim Dunning  talk  :  21:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

By the way, some may think I went a bit overboard with the {{Fact}} tags, but I want to prove a point about how much of the article is unsourced.
—  Jim Dunning  talk  :  22:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Message to IP 65.54.15x.xx editor

This is for the anonymous user whose IP address begins with 65.54.15x.xx. I understand your edits are in good faith, and thank you for your interest in improving this article and others. If you take the following steps you may find your WP experience more satisfying and productive (I'm leaving this information here because you appear to log in from slightly different IPs each time, which is normal for someone without a fixed IP address).

• I noticed you are known only as an IP address (maybe you login in from school/work?); that means you are not signed up. To sign up, you only need to click Create account and choose a username and password. You don't need to provide any personal information. If you sign up, you'll have a username that is unique that others can use to recognize you and leave you messages on your Talk page. You'll be able to sign your name just by typing four tildes (~~~~) when you leave someone else a message. Plus, you (and others) will easily be able to see a list of all your contributions to Wikipedia.

• Take a look at Citation templates for information on how to format citations of sources. You may also find Footnotes especially helpful, since this is the area you were asking assistance on. This article discusses how to format citations for footnotes using the <ref> . . . </ref> tags to enclose a citation. More to the point on what you were trying to do, you can repeat a footnote reference to an existing cite by naming it (<ref name="name"> . . . </ref>) the first time you use it, and then reference it without using the citation detail just by using <ref name="name"/>. The neat thing about this is that you don't have to worry about the footnote numbering (or re-numbering when new citations are added), because the <references/> tag at the end of the article does all that for you.

• Finally, please use Edit Summaries when you make changes. It helps you and others quickly identify what revision has been made. Many times an editor will not be able to understand the change made to an article if the Edit Summary is blank, believe the change to be Vandalism, and revert your change. WP does not require use of Summaries, but it is considered good etiquette (besides being very helpful to other editors).

If you have any questions, see the help pages, ask at the Village pump, or feel free to ask me on my Talk page. Have fun!
—  Jim Dunning  talk  :  12:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Dunning for the info on citations, I will look that over and place them correctley. I also made some minor adjustments to the wording on their admission test and water polo achievments. I have been basing my facts on The Harlem and Irving Times Newspaper which is part of Pioneer Press in Oak Park Illinois. The paper has a section just on local schools which can even be gotten through their website. However, if you do a search on Fenwick at the moment, nothing pops up becuse they only list their current stories for the week- and there happens to be nothing on Fenwick right now. However, they do have a school record database that can be searched for past stories that lists everything. You can also do a search right now in the "Photo Store" section where there are many images of Fenwick athletic achievements that were shot for the articles over the years.

Just a few words on why Fenwick's page needs to be up to snuff. There is a movement with Chicago's two top schools, Fenwick and St. Ignatius, to become America's leaders in educataion. Both schools have their eye on toppling the big two of the East (Andover and Exeter), and we are seeing a rather unique development by these two Chicago Schools. Ivies are heavily recruiting from them and Fenwick is an absolute powerhouse with their extracurricular achievment. Ignatius had more students going to Georgetown than even Andover, a far larger school. We are also seeing a movement of Protestant and Jewish faith based students also enrolling in Fenwick and Ignatius who were traditionally catholic based schools in the past.

While I agree, that the listing does seem slightly puff-like, it is important that all those archievments are listed, because they are true, but more importantly, it does make searchers aware that both of these two schools need to be taken very seriously. We may have a new movement occuring in the U.S. that is suggesting that America's leadership is not really coming from the eastern establishment any more. these guy with their midwest discipline end up become high power CEO's. Many of even Hollywood's players, if you check, have their roots in Chicago. So please bear with me on the editing of Fenwick's listing, it is not to be an ad nor is it to be inaccurate in the school's achievment— Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.142.117.238 (talk • contribs) 13:01, June 9, 2007 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia article, not a website for the institution. Material in this article needs to be notable and supported by references. We welcome your contributions but please don't mistake this article for an advertising or recruiting venue for the school. --ElKevbo 18:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

It is verifiable by the newspaper (a secondary source unconnected with the school), I have no interest in people going to Fenwick or even liking the school, I did not go there, nor am I linked to them now, but the listing has to be accurate in what the school is for people researching it. I'm sorry in using the word "website"- poor word choice.

may want to correct the problem with duplication on the bottom of referces that resulted when trying to add the missing citations for 17 and 18. Both of those citations are coming from (Long, Dan)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.154.151 (talk • contribs) 11:35, June 10, 2007 (UTC)

The problem that you just introduced yourself? Wouldn't it be easier to NOT INTRODUCE PROBLEMS and ask for help here first? --ElKevbo 16:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Yearbook award

I am unable to find a source to support the statement, "The Blackfriars Yearbook has just received a 1^st place award from the American Scholastic Press." ASPA's own website, which lists this year's (and past years') awards, does not support this. Can anyone provide relevant information on this (hopefully in the form of a link to a website)? Otherwise the statement must be removed.
—  Jim Dunning  talk  :  21:25, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The Oak Park newspaper printed that the school has won 8 Gallery of Excellence Awards from Walsworth Publishing Company for the Balckfriars Yearbook. It was the Wick (school newspaper) that just recieved a 1st place STANDING from the American Scholastic Press. I went into Fenwick's website, it is also stated there as well- go into "students", then go into "clubs & organizations" and open up "the Blackfriars Yearbook" and "the Wick". The school will reinterate what the Oak Park paper has also printed.

I went into the ASPA's website, it does list "Touchstone" which is a magazine that Fenwick puts out in unison with their yearbook (the two together) that did win an award.

I appreciate the additional information you (65.54.154.24, 65.54.154.151, 65.54.154.25, 65.54.98.102, 65.54.154.46 or whichever IP address you are today) have been providing, but you need to do two things before attempting to contribute anything else to this or any other article (please): (1) go to and study the Wikipedia Help sections and tutorials, especially Contents/Editing Wikipedia, Contents/Links, Contents/Policies and guidelines, Citing sources and Talk page guidelines; and (2) Please set up a username so we can communicate with you better. Click on Create account and choose a username and password. Right now every time you make an edit you show up as a different IP address. If you plan to continue to edit WP, then please set up a username. Ideally, I should not be leaving this message for you here, but on your very own Talk page.

I have removed all of the Long and Wagner references because they do not provide enough information about the sources for the statements you and others have placed in the article. A citation should adequately identify a source so a reader can locate that source to verify the accuracy of the referenced information. "Long, Dan (2007). Edison Norwood Times Review. Pioneer Press" and "Wagner, Nicole (2007). Pioneer Local School Review" do not provide enough information. If you are referencing hardcopy newspapers, then you should have the issue date and page numbers (in addition to the author and newspaper name) available to you. If so, then please add them to the citation when you replace it. If you are working off the newspaper's website, there may not be a page number, but there certainly is a web page URL you must include in the citation. Providing this level of detail assists both the reader (verifiable sources) and all editors (who can use the links to update information down the road as the awards and statistics change. Again, just providing a general reference to a newspaper is insufficient (especially since you appear to have access to the desired information).

Consider using Wikipedia's inline citation templates for the footnotes; this will make formatting easier and ensure the necessary information is included. Click on the Edit tab of the article and see how others have formatted the footnote references. For example, here's a complete reference to your favorite newspaper — <ref>{{cite news | last = Stablein | first = Tim | coauthors = | title = Friars make quick work of Shamrocks | work = | pages = | language = | publisher = OakPark-Leaves.com (Sun-Times News Group) | date = May 16, 2007 | url = http://www.pioneerlocal.com/oakpark/sports/386513,op-fenbwpl-051607-s1.article | accessdate = 2007-06-09}}</ref>. Also, try not to use the school's own publications and website as a significant source of information; to maintain objectivity (WP:NPOV) and verifiability, try to focus on third-party sources unless absolutely unavoidable. That's why I'm relying on the ASPA website for the publishing awards: I'm not saying that what you've added about first place awards isn't true, but it needs to be verifiable. Similarly, for the yearbook awards, locate a source other than the school website to verify the awards. Try the Walsworth website, or if you have the specific webpage for the newspaper article, use that.

I'd be glad to help you with this, so don't hesitate to ask for help on my Talk page anytime after you've set up a username, and I will respond on your Talk page (and make sure you sign your Talk page entries). I'm looking forward to working with you further on this article. My apologies to other editors for placing this message on the article's Talk page.
—  Jim Dunning  talk  :  03:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

You know what, I will not spend any more time with this. I have been researching this school more than any one else. The information that I have provided has been accurate. If you go into the IHSA website, you will find under schools that you can get to a Fenwick listing and there is a yahoo map that clearly will show the school on Washingtonm Blvd. and the Priory on Division St. You can do a basic web search right now on the the school's architect which will lead you to the gothic church the architect designed for Notre Dame University. I have provided you with the data base that has all of the articles listed about the school with Pioneer- which was completely removed. It is no mystery that a Blackfriar is for the Dominican Order- it is even listed right there on their yearbook. And I appreciate you not wanting to use primary sources, but come on, it's not like the shool made up it's 1929 yearbook that has a picture of the building of the school as well as information about the architect who designed it, which is all available on their website.You can point out that the information is coming from a primary source, and researchers who are looking at Fenwick's page will take that into account. It doesn't mean that just because something may be coming from the schools website, that it is wrong or still not of value. There is a substantial level of credibility to any reputable high school or university's website. Before I got to Fenwick's listing, one would have not even recognized it as the school we are writing about now, and I just figured that could do a public service by improving the page. The listing you have for Fenwick as it is is 100% accurate witha a ton of other substantial portions missing, like their very exclusive alumni club that hosts a very important ball at the Cadilac Club of the Chicago Bears, or the school's very impressive chapel that was designed after the Blackfriars church in London with stain glass made by a Vatican artist, There is also a Fenwick Hall of Fame, and so on. But I will leave Wikipedia in your hands from now on.

I'm sorry to see you go and will miss your interest and energy. Please understand that my requests and suggestions regarding cite formatting and reviewing Help topics before further editing were put forward to improve your Wiki experience. They were not meant as negative criticism. I hope you return to WP and continue to work on improving articles. Always feel free to ask me for help on my Talk page after you get a Username so I know who you are.
—  Jim Dunning  talk  :  11:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

---

Fenwick Sourcing

I am interested in sending my son to a top school in the Chicago area and have been researching schools. I noticed that Wikipedia's page for Fenwick has citations missing and looked into matters for myself to have justification. Fenwick, St. Ignatius, and Loyola Academy have the reputation of being the best perp. schools in the Chicago area and all are similar in tuition costs, making a choice for me a difficult one. I contacted Cheryl Harbour of the school who was able to provide justification of these claims that I saw on Wikipedia, and I received information from the National Merit Scholarship Corporation that has a profile of the school. Dr. Plass of the American Scholastic Press also wrote a profile of the school as well, and those points, formally needing citations, were verified. I thought that I should cite them for those, like myself, trying to make a hard choice. I was also referred to the Directory of Private Schools that lists Fenwick's and Ignatius' ACT testing scores, which are both similar at about 27 (Fenwick's specifically 26.5). Fenwick and Ignatius listing comes in neck and neck scholastically and are listed as the two best prep schools in Chicago, Loyola is a little farther behind. Fenwick is leaps and bound greater in athletics, compare to the other two schools. Fenwick and Ignatius are big rivals- loyola to a lesser extent, much like Andover and Exter as listed. Fenwick calls Ignatius "Iggy" to make fun of them and Ignatius call Fenwick the "dungeon" because of it's gothic school and black school colors. Also, because Ignatius is a far more beautiful campus as well. The school of Fenwick though is a beautiful gothic structure and was created in 1929 by the architect listed. Fenwick has a 1929 record of the architect on file- it can be checked, but I really didn't wory about that too much- it's not my primary concern of making a choice between Fenwick and Ignatius. The citations I listed should be put back for people trying to choose like I am. I will return the previous page. It is verified and accurate. The other uncited sources also seem to be correct- like their fight song being inspired from Yale's, but I don't have sources for that, and I don't really care to even look into that, again it's not important from my perspective. You may also want to check the web page of American Scholastic Press, Fenwick's magazine (Touchstone) is listed as an award winner. Thanks

• Follow Up: Your two sections needing sources, the "ACT" part and the "two top schools" would also be covered by the sources I listed in the above statement, but I leave that up to you to cite. I think it would be benificial to be done as well. Thank you again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.154.144 (talk • contribs) 10:56, July 1, 2007

Glad to have someone else working on this article and focused on obtaining reliable sources. The American Scholastic Press Association source you mention, is it published somewhere? I couldn't find it online. Your description almost makes it sound like it was a communication between you and Mr. Plass. If the profile is published, it would be great if we could provide more specific information on where it can be found.

Also, I had rearranged the yearbook-newspaper-magazine information to consolidate it all into one place, rather than breaking it up into duplicative pieces in two paragraphs. I further removed the references to first place awards for those publications because the website of the organization making the awards states that they are for second place, not first. I'm not questioning that the information you received from NMSC says "first place", but I'll put more weight on the word of the primary source over that of a secondary source. Finally, can you point us more specifically to the "Directory of Private Schools" you mentioned? I searched for it and came up with far too many hits to identify the one to which you refer. It sounds like a great source for this article, so it would be nice if we could use it.

Thanks for the help. I'm looking forward to improving this article further.
Jim Dunning | talk 18:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, hi again, sorry I didn't respond right away, I called a friend of mine that has their son attending Fenwick right now for some follow up information. First off, to answer your previous question: the source from Dr. Plass is an official pamplet type document/report that that agency puts together for the school in order for that school to know where they stand in relation to other schools. So, for example [ I'm looking at the copy I made at that time] Fenwick and Ignatious are head to head Act wise Ignatious at 26.8, Fenwick 26.5, also both schools have very high numbers matriculating to Ivy/top tier schools. Ignatious has the largest matriculation to Georgetown in comparision to any schools in the country. The phamphlet is available to anyone that goes to the school to research information, and it is not published by the school, it is published by Dr. Plass who has no relationship to the school what so ever- so it is objectuive. Fenwick and Ignatious come in as the 2 top ranked private prep schools in the Chicago area according to Dr. Plass with Loyola Academy in there too, but slighly behind. So, whomever wrote that portion for Fenwick's page was knowledgable and accurate, and it would be fair to cite those portions.

The Directory of Private Schools is by Bunting and Lyon and it it also in accordance with many of the things that Dr. Plass wrote such as test score and high matriculations to Ivy schools and ranking Ignatius and Fenwick as the two best. There is a cite (Buntingandlyon.com) you can check and then you can order the report as I have which will verify if you want.

I also asked my friend if she knew anything about some of those other points that are not cited. Those check out to, and I now have info that can be cited. The school is by the archiect as listed. Go into Fenwick's Webpage and go into photos and then into "1929 booklet" and there is the first school yearbook scanned onto the site that talks about the design and building of the school and photo's of the building in 1929 as well as the architect who designed it. Then, there is a book written called "The Story of Notre Dame-100 Years", by Arthur J. Hope. Chpter 28 talks about the redesigning of Notre Dame's 1888 Sacred Heart Church by the same architect that did Fenwick. Fenwick was done in 1929 and Notre Dame's work was completed in 1931. My fiend also said that yes, the Fenwick song is inspired by one of yale's songs. The Yale song is called "Down the Field" and it is written by C.W O'Conner with music by Stanleigh P. Friedman. She also said that when girl teams are playing, they do substitute "Men of Steel" for "Teams of Steel" as was the case for the victory celebration when the girl's basketball won state. The information my friend has about the archiect and the school song came from material sourced by John Quinn the school's primary historian, Quinn went to Amhearst and also teaches at the school, he also won a golden apple teaching award while at Fenwick that awarded him a scholarship to attend Northwestern University for an advance degree in history which he also has now. John quinn is the brother of the prominant Quinn alumni listed at the bottom of Fenwick's page. That Quinn was a politician who attended Georgetown. She also said that if you go to Fenwick homepage and listen to their song and go to www.ivysport.com that also has Yale's song, they are almost identical. She also said that somewhere on the web the relevant chapter for the Notre Dame's book talking about the architect is also out there if you search the web. In short, Fenwick's page is accurate and it all checks out. I will put in the citations now- I will leave it up to you to adjust if need. Have a wonderful and safe 4th!

PLEASE NOTE: I sorry, the source is Bunting not Buntington as was previously cited. corrections were already done-thank you

ONE LAST POINT: My friend also said that there is a very important alumni missing from the list. His name is Vitus Barbaro and he is actually both nobility and royality from a very ancient family. He is one of Fenwick's most illustrious alumni. He is most famous for being an aerospace engineer and car designer that designed concepts for the Bentley Continental Gt and the Ferrari Enzo. He is also talked about in Wikipedia as a member of the Barbaro family. My fiend even asked the school's Alumni & Development Director, Debbie Thompson, about this individual. Ms. Thompson has verified that he is 100% genuine as discussed within Wikipedia and has also verified that the whole Wikipedia page about his family was taken from the encyclopedia of nobility for 2007 with all sources of the family listed as they appear within the encyclopeda. She also said that he was class vice-president for 1991, Chairman of the Wick, and Captain of Fenwick's Track team of the discuss group. He earned a scholarship to attend Purdue University's very prestigious school of aeronautics/astronautics aviavtion to study aerospace engineering and then in 1994 he also enrolled at the University of Illinois for further undergraduates degrees in art history, philosophy and fine arts where he earned two seperate degress at the same time while becoming that school's 130th valedictorian in U of I history. He latter did his post graduate work at an Ivy League School, but she does not recall which one- she thinks Yale. He also worked for the Art Institute of Chicago as a researcher/buyer for museum collections while also producing the Renzo Piano architetural exhibition for the Museum, and I also understand that he is a Hollywood producer as well. I have added him to the list with citation for what he is most famous for as a car designer, and I also mentioned him in the introduction as well, I think he is justified to be there too. Thank You

• Dunning, if you are out there, will you plese help me with Corvus cornix and Starblind that want to belive that there is hoax going on between Fenwick's page, the Barbaro family page, and a secret society college society page called The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent. I have worked on all 3 because I am a Barbaro family historian, and Vitus was involved in all three. These guys have destroyed all of it becuase of their conspiracy mind set. It all began because Corvus did not understand that a "Golden Book" source is just an English term for Libro d'Oro. He is not rational, even after I fully explain. Look at the Fenwick page now, the archiect was perfectly sourced before by the Notre Dame 100-Years book, I checked. As well as the Barbaro family perfectly sourced. as were the other articles too. He removed Vitus Barbaro from the noted alumni, that Debbie Thompson would have been able toperfectly verify as having gone there. This is not right and there is edit-happy people working at Wikipedia with their conspiracy mindset that has ruined good knowledge. Thank you.