Talk:Diesel engine

The efficiency of the diesel engine over the gas engine is also because of the boundry layer effect of the fuel air mixture in the combustion chamber. Since the gasoline engine sucks in a fuel air mixture there will alwasy be some fuel near the walls of the combustion chamber which will not burn. In addition to this - the diesel engine almost always runs oxygen rich and thus more complete combustion can take place.

There should be mention of compressionsBold text ratios used and pre-combustion chamber designs.

Terrell_Larson (I have a user ID but I didn't bother to log in. If anyone wants to find me they can.)

In addition a liter diesel weights about 15% more than a liter petrol. More weight gives more potential energy.

---

wondering if you have any knowlege on rotellat 15w 40 engine oil i was told by a mechanic that it was not good for long term and it wears you engine out faster than other oils please advise Leftyroper61@aol.com thank you

I have used Rotella T 15w-40 oil in several engines, both in semi trucks and in pickup trucks, with no ill effects. I also have experience with Mobil Delvac. Both are excellent products. My last semi truck with a 460 HP engine ran Rotella from new on and continues to do so. I sold it with over 500,000 miles on it. The current owner (whom I last spoke with about a year ago) had 830,000 on the engine at that time. Up to that time the only work that engine had received was the replacement of a faulty injector during the warranty period. Terrywerm 13:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Is there any difference between Otto and Diesel engine engine in cycle: Two-stroke cycle Four-stroke cycle. On this page are links to Two-stroke_Diesel_cycle and Four-stroke_Diesel_cycle. Not yet filled. anobo 04:26 22 May 2003 (UTC)

---

This sentence from biodiesel should also get a mention on this article, I think: This engine stood as an example of Diesel's vision because it was powered by peanut oil - a biofuel. He thought that the utilization of a biomass fuel was the real future of his engine. -- Tarquin 16:24, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Some peanut oil references:

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,61077,00.html?tw=wn_techhead_1

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/biodiesel010523.html

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/fuels/altfuels/biodiesel.pdf

http://www.canadiantechnology.ca/envelope/biodiesel.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/biodiesel3.htm

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/vehiclefuels/biodiesel/biodiesel_faq.cfm?PrintView=N&Text=N

Added peanut oil right into the article and vision; feel free to add more. Samw 05:01, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

---

As I understand (misunderstand?) things, the encyclopedia article misses the point about Diesel engines entirely, focusing, as it does (and as popular perception does) on the use of compression heating to ignite the fuel as the defining aspect of the Diesel engine. I thought that what was unique about the Diesel engine was that it injected fuel (directly, of course) into the engine during the power stroke. That means that there is no fuel (or, depending on timing, very little fuel) in the mixture during the compression stroke. As a result, the compression ratio can be very high without danger of preignition. The high compression ratio results in very high temperatures at/near TDC so that when fuel is injected, it will autoignite without need for a spark. But the lack of separate ignition is a consequence of being a Diesel engine, not a defining characteristic. One could (though, likely wouldn't) build a low compression Diesel engine (direct injecting fuel during the power stroke) and then would need a spark to ignite the fuel. One of the intriguing aspects of direct injection gasoline (modified Otto cycle) engines is the ability to continue injection into the power stroke. This will result in some hybrid (Otto/Diesel) operation and should open new opportunities for power/economy/pollution optimization. And since it will all be run under electronic control, that optimization could be dynamically readjusted, depending on road/operator/environmental conditions.

Am I off base on this? mattes@sonic.net

Ignition by the temperature of compression is what defines a diesel engine, it cannot work without injection to the cylinder. There were in the early years of the 20th century engines that had a hot bulb to ignite at a lower compression ussuallt known as oilengines or semi-diesel Archivist 20:35, Feb 2, 2004 (UTC)

I believe that compression-ignition is as fundamental to the Diesel concept as direct-injection. A spark-ignition engine cannot be a Diesel.

Incidentally, fuel injection in a diesel takes place before TDC and is thus at the end of the compression stroke. Injecting during the power stroke would be substantially less efficient. In spark ignition engines, the spark happens in advance of TDC for similar reasons.

Of course, the article might not give sufficient space to the greater efficiencies made possible by higher compression, in which case, feel free to add to it! —Morven 20:55, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

A Diesel engine IS a compression-ignition engine, by definition. Fuel injection is used in a diesel engine, as a carburetor (usually) in a gasoline engine - but what defines a gasoline internal combustion engine is that it uses sparkplugs.

Some Diesels use indirect rather than direct injection: also of course some gasoline engines use fuel injection.

Since a diesel engine (in the patent and most professional discussion) is defined by injection of fuel during combustion, I have seen no real diesel engine not using injection during burn. It is true that some call model engins using compression ignition "diesel engines" but that is wrong. An Otto engine with fuel injection do not inject fuel during the power stroke but either during suction or compression stroke. I know that it is a very common mistake to make compression ignition as defining a diesel engine, but it is WRONG. I will not edit the article since it will start an edit war. Seniorsag 15:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The greater efficiency of a diesel is due to the higher compression ratio as you say, and fuel injection allows this, not sure you could design a carburetor/diesel engine that would work efficiently if at all - but a fuel injection gas engine can't obtain the same compression ratio as a diesel!

(admission - not an expert on internal combustion engines so feel free to disagree)

Exile 16:04, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The following uses a Swedish edition of "DIESEL. Der Mensh, das Werk, das Schicksal" Author: Diesel, Eugen; son of Rudolf Diesel. Swedish edition printed LUND 1941. I do not have access to any english edition so i freely translate from the swedish edition. First: Diesel engine patent (Germany 1892, nr: 67 207) does not primarily describe compression ignition but injection of fuel during the work expansion to keep the pressure constant. Early engins used many ignition metods including a few with spark-plugs. According to text at pictures facing page 192 first engine built 1893, rebuilt 1895. Fate unknown to me. Second engine according to text at picture facing page 240 built 1896, exibited (1941) at Deutches Museum Munich under the sign "The first Diesel Engine"(Dubble translation German-Swedish-English). Exibited first time 1898 at the 2:nd Engine- and Machin exibition Munic. Won Grand Prix at Internal exibition at paris 1900. Seniorsag 16:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC) Excuse for the two part acommenting, computer and network f--- up and I was in a hurry to reenter befor I had to leave. In Rudolf Diesel´s writing he described his theory and that did not include compression igniting, it included very high compression, he aimed for 300 atmospheres but reached only 25-30. It also included a theory that by Keeping presuare constant while burning the fuel he would reach about 80% efficiency. He only reached 30-40%. He was lucky. The high compression ment high efficiency (and also autoignitiona of most fuels). The constant pressure during combustion ment that he limited the forces to manageable levels. For a long time small (specially car) engins worked at such low compression that ignition was not ensured but there are many ways of helping that. 1: Glow plug (common) 2: Precombustion chamber (usually combined vith glow plug in small engines, preheated with a blowlamp in big engines) 3: I have seen spark plug igniting used. 4: Injection of easily ignited fuel with the main fuel. The reason for the high efficiency is mainly the high compression ratio but helped with that in a well designed engine no fuel will reach the walls and be cooled to nonignition. The wall effect is not big in an Otto engine but it is always there. Seniorsag 13:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

this page says he demonstraited diesel engine at the 1900 world fair (paris)

while this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel says it was the 1898 world fair

can anyone confirm which one is right

Types of engines two stroke and four. most are four Why? which ones? would high speed , medium speed and low speed be a more usefull breakdown?KAM 15:41, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

US/Euro/Industry centric

most of the diesel engine vehicles I see, beyond trucks, are Busses and VW's. I live in Canada. Reading this entire article, its as though I'm seeing magic, because I dont think it mentions busses once, and consistantly says that in this part of the world you cant find cars with diesel engines. 74.13.131.174 10:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Common Rail Technology

I was hoping for some information on this subject as it seems to be becoming quite important in diesel engine technology. Can anyone with knowledge add something? —Pseudonym 10:50, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Common rail fuel systems are essentially one way to package two important features: rapid fuel delivery and precise timing. Most common rail systems work in excess of 20,000 psi. This brings the fuel injectors close to the ideal goal of filling the combustion chamber with atomized fuel instantly. Common rail injectors are "fired" electrically, meaning that an ECU can coordinate injection timing. Non-common-rail fuel systems typically use an injection pump with individual lines running to each injector. The injection pump would force fuel down each line to open each injector. 24.107.227.12 07:47, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Other than the fact that my shiny new car has one, no.... However, I would like to see something put here, if anyone does know anything.

The cars a Fiat, and I have reason to believe they developed common-rail, or at least were first to market with it on the Punto. Kiand 21:02, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Right, I've written something. I need to do more research to expand it, or spin it off to another article. It really seems Fiat did invent it (as people are paying them licencing fees...), so should a seperate article be under their tradename (MultiJet) or a more generic name?

There seems to be a standalone talking about common rail technology, but doesn't seem much different than what's here in the main Diesel engine article. I've added a "main article" link, but perhaps the common rail page needs to be fleshed out a bit more. Polpo 19:40, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

External link to biggest diesel engine

Holy friggin' moly! Gzuckier 02:30, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

divide by speed

I think this is a little more clear, I changed slow speed to low speed, Both mean the same thing but I I think low speed is more common. Low speed engines marine are direct drive and also reversible.

Unusual means of starting

"Some smaller military diesels can be started with an explosive cartridge that provides the extra power required to get the machine turning."

I've heard of this but it is typically an emergency measure used in cold weather. Maybe we should find some way to make that clearer without botching the whole paragraph.

 False, it is an old way of starting Diesel engines that do not have enough compression to

safely copression-ignite when cold, used as an alternative to electric heating of glow plug or blowlamp heating of precombustion chamber. It do not usually give power to turn the engine but heat to ignite the injected fuel. It has also been used to turn the engine in absence of compressed air for starting. Seniorsag 15:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect use of Charles' law

This article says that when you compress a gas it heats up in accordance with Charles' law. However, the page on Charles' law is quite clear that it relates the volume and temperature of a gas at constant pressure. Thus, it cannot possibly apply to a diesel engine.

link spam

There is a lot of link spam showing up. Whack all manufacturers ? Any worth keeping ? (Keep that biggest.. link :-) Wizzy…☎ 14:23, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I'll remove them (Wikipedia is no link farm). They don't help anyone wanting to learn more about diesel engines. - Alureiter 16:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

More racing applications

Somebody who races a diesel: RallyVW. Apparently they did quite well with a (nearly-stock?) VW Golf TDI.

Modern Diesel Facts

Should this section be revised? It's got some good facts in it, but the bosch-centricity of it isn't very encyclopaedic.

StealthFox 21:48, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Mechanical direct injection?

While the article mentions common rail EFI, indirect, and unit direct, no mention is made of the older style mechanical injection systems. I'm reffering to the kind that use a fuel pump/distributor type device called a "fuel injection pump", which feeds pressurized fuel to each injector in turn. They are found in older F-350s and Dodge Rams, but I don't know much about how they work, so I'd like to see if someone knows more than I do.

I've added something in from my knowledge of how my Peugeot 205 works, someone please correct it if it's nonsense ;). StealthFox 02:55, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, that looks good to me. --Natesully 18:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I added a Distributor pump direct injection section, but it is European centric (as that's what I know). The powerstroke technology is still missing. --Dieselnutjob

Diesel car history

I expanded the part by the Hanomag Rekord, introduced in 1936 at the very exhibition, where Mercedes showed their 260 D. Furthermore I deleted the Citroën-bit because, although I have the greatest possible respect for anybody's beliefs, it was not "encyclopaedic", I think. As soon as this information can be made factual, it should be most welcome, but the way it was, it was only conjectural. Who knows anything provable? Heinrich L. 22:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

From http://www.cats-citroen.net/citroen/history.html

"7UA, 11UA, 11UD 1935-1938

Models: - Berline - Berline commerciale - Conduite interieure - Familiale - Conduite interieure commerciale

These were cars in the style of the Rosalie but were yet a bit more progressive. The cars were more for those people who thought the Traction Avant was too different. The 7UA has the Traction Avant 7C engine (95 km/h) and the 11UA has the Traction Avant 11 engine (100 km/h).The 11UD was something special though. This was one of the first series production car to have a Diesel engine! Not many Diesels were made and these are now extremely rare." dieselnutjob

New chapter(s)? Diesel vs. Gasoline Engines and/or Environmental Impact of Diesel Engines

I'm very new to Wikipedia so I don't know how to address this properly. But should there be a chapter discussing the differences between diesel and gasoline engines? That is in cars. I mean, as the chapter Facts about modern diesel engines has some points but I think it would be good to have separate chapter(s) about this. It's a big deal. To me it seems that pretty much all Europe is promoting diesel engines to lower their greenhouse gas emissions (which is good). Comments?

---

I'd like to know what exactly causes the unique knocking noise?

The knocking noise is caused by piston head slap produced by the combustion of the diesel fuel. Newer engines reduce this knock by a pilot injection to start the combustion before the final injection of fuel is introduced.Danball1976 01:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

---

There is a web page here http://www.christiantena.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/motor/diesel/emissions.html about diesel emissions. I don't want to be accused of linkspamming again though... dieselnutjob

World's first diesel engine.

Can someone please help. There is a picture and patent on the 'diesel engine' homepage. Is this the world's first diesel engine (coal powder fuelled) and where is it located?

Thank you,

Ekiumeni

If you click on either image it will bring you to the relevant image description page. The patent is Diesel's original patent, but the picture is of a 1906 engine, which is some time after the first diesel engine was built. --Robert Merkel 03:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Diesel article vs. Turbodiesel article

This article is too long, and the turbodiesel too short (two sentences, in fact). I think a lot of information may be moved there, and automobile-related links changed to the new location. The common rail article does it very well, but this one doesn't. This article may have a short description of turbocharged engines, with a Main article template at the top. What do you say? -- NaBUru38 20:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

gasoline

In the fuel section, it says diesels can use virtually any fuel, including gasoline, but owners of all diesel cars are certainly strongly warned NEVER to use gasoline. Like, Whazzup? Gzuckier 15:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

diesel engines are the best

The use of gasoline in a diesel can be devastating. I understand that doing so can cause the engine to explode, or at the very least severely damage the cylinder heads. Danball1976 01:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Danball1976 has it backwards: Gasoline is designed to be hard to ignite and diesel easy to ignite. Running a diesel on gasoline would just cause a lot of misfires. Bigger problem would be gasoline will strip all of the lubricant out of the system and cause the engine to seize, which would in turn likely gouge up your cylinder walls amongst other things. Oh, and diesel engines are indeed the best. Thermodude 13:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Fuel mileage in diesels

The biggest thing I don't understand is why the big three: Ford, Chevy, and Dodge don't list the fuel economy on their diesels yet Volkswagon does. This is based on what I was looking at on http://www.fueleconomy.gov/ and the vehicle information paper on the window of a 2006 Dodge Ram Megacab. Since this is a discussion on diesel engines, does anyone want to add entries on what their diesel vehicles get on fuel economy in the city (or just an average), and what they've observed on the highway? Also, since diesel fuel is a light oil, and is less refined than gasoline, why is diesel more expensive than gasoline? Danball1976 01:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Diesel is only more expensive than gasoline in certain areas. If you're in an area where there aren't a lot of gas stations that sell diesel, then there's less of a reason to sell it cheap. Manufacturers will tell you what fuel mileage you'll get from any of their engines. Try checking out their websites next time.Mustang6172 09:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, the EPA requires fuel mileage estimates to be included on the stickers of new automobiles, but that requirement does not include trucks over 8500 lbs. GVW. I currently own a 2001 Dodge pickup with the Cummins diesel, 5 spd transmission, 4x4, and it gets 18 to 19 MPG in the winter months, 21 to 22 MPG during the summer. My driving is a mixture of freeway/city driving, totally about 60 miles per day to get to work and back. When towing a large trailer, such as a fifth wheel camper, mileage typically runs 11 to 12 MPG when running speeds of 65 to 70 MPH. Terrywerm 13:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

early engine FI systems

Did the injection systems on the earliest engines crank up the same PSI as the current ones? That seems a pretty substantial pressure for turn of the century engineering. If not, then what and how? Gzuckier 14:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, I found the early fuel injectin systems section. Duh. Gzuckier 21:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Remove copyedit tag?

I just did a pass on the first quarter of the article, and while I found some things that needed to be fixed, I would say that overall, it wasn't that bad. I'm thinking of removing the copyedit tag. Any comments before I do so? – Little Miss Might Be Wrong 01:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I will proofread it later to see if it needs copyediting. If you are confident it does not need copyediting, by all means remove the tag. Can you identify those things which need to be fixed? (I haven't actually read the article yet). Rintrah 02:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The article runs to 18 pages when printed out, and I've only proofread/corrected the first 5, so I'm not going to vouch for the whole thing, and I'm certainly not going to claim there's nothing that could be fixed or improved. However, based on what I've seen so far, it doesn't seem that this page is in such need of copyediting that it deserves the tag. Am I misunderstanding the purpose of the tag? – Little Miss Might Be Wrong 03:27, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

No. The tag just says the article needs copyediting. If it doesn't, it ought to be removed. Rintrah 03:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Engine of Fram

There's a picture of the engine of the Fram in the commons. Maybe it could be put on this article, since it's mentioned... Crazy Murdoc 21:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Does a diesel engine produce less CO₂ than gasoline engine?

The article says; diesel has higher density than gasoline, so gives better fuel efficiency (mies/gallon) and thus produces less CO₂. To me this does not seem logical. If diesel is denser and hence have higher carbon content /unit volume, how does it produce less CO₂. Can some one substantiate this claim?

Two completely separate issues and you have made the false assumption that each stroke uses the same volume of fuel.

The mass density of gasoline is ~0.75 kg/liter and that of light diesel fuel is ~0.78 kg/liter. The lower heating value of gasoline is ~44.0 MJ/kg and that of light diesel fuel is ~43.2 MJ/kg. That yields volumetric energy densities of ~33 MJ/liter and ~33.7 MJ/liter, respectively. Note that gasoline has a higher energy per unit mass because of its higher hydrogen content. So long, however, as a light diesel is significantly higher in efficiency, it will require less fuel for the same energy output and thus make less CO₂. Contact me if you want me to tell you the breaking point or more detail. All data from Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals, John Heywood, 1988, ISBN 0-07-028637-X.

Thermodude 13:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Introduction

I know nothing about this subject, but I know this part can't be right: "...Herbert Akroyd Stuart, built the first compression-ignition oil engine in Bletchley, England in 1891. He leased the rights to Richard Hornsby, who by 1892, five years before Diesel's prototype, had a diesel engine working in a water works." In the linked entry on Richard Hornsby, it states that he died in 1864. 220.237.139.190 12:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)