Talk:Movses Kaghankatvatsi

Movses of Kalankatuyk wrote the history of Caucasian Albania, so naturally the page falls into History of Azerbaijan category as well. Atabek 22:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC) Grandmaster, please elaborate by quote of him being Albanian. General consensus is he is Armenian, and unless your source satisfactorily exceptional on the topic, I disagree with keeping reference on him being "Albanian." I mean, he did after all write in the Armenian language, not in "Aluani" - pretty clear indication. Hetoum I 11:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

So what if he wrote in Armenian? Vladimir Nabokov wrote in English, was he ethnically English? This is from K.Trever, one of the top experts on Albania:

На армянском языке написан первый и единственный труд, посвященный истории Албании, - "История Албании" Моисея Каланкатуйского (Мосес Каланкатваци). Труд этот дошел до нас в нескольких списках и состоит из трех частей; он упоминается армянскими писателями XII--XIII вв. Автор, уроженец сел. Каланкатуйк в области Утик, был по происхождению либо утийцем (албаном), писавшим на армянском языке, либо армянином, что весьма возможно, так как в этот период Арцах и большая часть Утика были уже арменизованы.

К.В. Тревер. ОЧЕРКИ ПО ИСТОРИИ И КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ IV В. ДО Н. Э. - VII В. Н. Э. (источники и литература) -- изданиe Академии наук СССР, М.-Л., 1959

She says that, Movses, native of the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, was either uti (Albanian), who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian. Grandmaster 11:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

No Grandmaster, this is what she says.

Movses, native of the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, was either Uti (Albanian) who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian, which is very likely, because during at that time Artsakh and greater part of Utik were Armenianised.

Just another one of your selective quotations. VartanM 03:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

How it is selective, when I provided a full quote from the source? Grandmaster 05:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Many users here don't speak Russian, and by translating the only part where it suits your needs, is pov pushing. VartanM 06:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

No, it’s not. WP:AGF. I had no time for translating the whole text, I only translated the relevant part. The rest has nothing to do with Movses. Most Armenian users speak Russian, so if I wanted to conceal any info I would not be providing the whole quote in the first place. Grandmaster 07:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

So by your logic him being very likely Armenian and not just maybe Armenian is not relevant. I know at least three active Armenian users who don't speak Russian. As for WP:AGF I did nothing wrong, only pointed out your mistake [1]. To avoid such unpleasant conversation in future, please translate the whole quotation. VartanM 07:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The source says that he was either of the two, and actually gives preference to his Albanian origin, as I have another quote where the same scholar calls him Albanian. I chose this one to show that there are 2 versions of his origin. I was short of time while posting here, and sometimes I don't even translate the Russian quotes, as Armenian users are mostly fluent in Russian. In the future I will provide full Russian translation for any quotes, since it is a problem for you. Grandmaster 07:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

How is a source where it says "He was either Uti (Albanian) who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian, which is very likely" gives preference to his Albanian origin? Is this the source your talking about? [2] The same scholar shows doubt about his Albanian origin and then says that his Armenian. I have no problem with your Russian sources, but some users not necessarily Armenian would probably have difficulty understanding it. VartanM 08:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Here:

Наиболее ценным источником является "История албанов" Моисея Каланкатваци, по-видимому, албана по происхождению, труд которого дошел до нас на армянском языке; он написал в VII в. две первые книги этой хроники, третья же принадлежит перу другого автора, жившего в X в.

Source: К ВОПРОСУ О КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ (доклад на XXV Международном конгрессе востоковедов, 1960 год), К.В.ТРЕВЕР, член-корр. АН СССР

The most valuable source is History of Albanians of Moses Kalankatvatsi, apparently Albanian by origin, whose work survived to our days in Armenian, he wrote in VII century the first 2 books of this chronicle, and third one was written by another author, who lived in X century. Grandmaster 10:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

MarshalBagramyan, your last edit has refrence to non-neutral source while you have reverted neutral source. --Dacy69 21:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Marshall, Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia in Armenian language is something most people are unable to verify. Great Soviet Encyclopedia is a lot better, at least it is available for everyone to check. Why don't you use reliable third party sources and why did you delete references to Minorsky and Trever, who are a lot more reliable than your source? Vladimir Minorsky is a top international expert in the ancient history of the region, you cannot simply delete a reference to him. Grandmaster 05:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

You have a convoluted understanding of what a third party source is (as the SAE obviously is, whether it's written in Armenian or not), and there is no such rule, as I have been explaining this to you for one year now yet you have been unable to understand this, that stipulates that we only stick with them.

I don't see the problem either: they don't contradict one another although Minorsky cleverly plays it safe with his wording by not going into the matter of his identity by mentioning only location and language. In any case, it says Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, not the Great Armenian Encyclopedia. You can twist the rules all you like as you have for all this time you have been on Wikipedia by maintaining your faux "third-party" line every time you hear something you don't like in a certain source, but this has become a nauseating habit of you constantly suppressing sources strictly because of the ethnic basis of the authors, and never on the content of what they say. --Marshal Bagramyan 19:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

GM, Trever deserves much more corroborating sources to bear inclusion. Currently, a Google search on him shows him being quoted all over by Azeri websites [3]. Some even show that he is quoting Farida Mamedova and other Azeri sources. --Marshal Bagramyan 17:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

She does not quote Mamedova because her article was written in 1960s. And Armenian origin is not prevailing opinion, Minorsky does not call Movses Armenian, and he was one of the top experts on the region. Camilla Trever is one of the leading Russian specialists on Albania, and you cannot simply remove an alternative opinion from the article just because you don't like it. Grandmaster 19:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

MarshalBagramyan, good job on providing neutral sources on Movses being possibly Armenian, out of which 2 are Armenian sources, but why would you delete the neutral source on him being possibly Albanian. There is nothing wrong with presenting the evidence alleging that he might have been both and including that in the article. It's not like he's Serzh Sarkissian or somebody alike whose Armenian background can't be contested. The guy has lived and wrote very long time ago.

I would appreciate if we could include both version as before. Ehud 19:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)