Talk:Rebirth (Buddhism)

I'd like to add something to this page about the common western Buddhist's view of this as a metaphor, etc.

But before that... does anyone think it might be good to explain the POINT of reincarnation, rather than just the details and/or debate surrounding it? I mean, to begin the article with why it's an important teaching, regardless of whether it's believed or not?

--Jel 16:30, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, there are a number of issues here, among them being my objection to severing the discussion of reincarnation from that of "Buddhist rebirth" and your point regarding reinterpretations of it as a metaphor. Please feel free to chip away at the article, though I would caution you against identifying the metaphorical interpretation as the "common" "western" one, as I'm not sure it is.कुक्कुरोवाच 19:00, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Jel - be aware that there are many numbers of Western Buddhists who do not in any way consider rebirth to be metaphoric. There are plenty of Western Buddhists who do not consider the hell realms to be metaphoric. There are some Western Buddhists who believe that the world as a sphere is metaphoric, and that the Buddhist Kalachakra view of the world (flat, with a mountain in the middle) is the literal truth. however, if you wish to qualify your claims into a more specific group (e.g. the FWBO - not that I know what the FWBO say), then go ahead. (20040302 13:29, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC))

Alternative definition

There is another definition of rebirth which seems to be missing here. This is the concept of being continuously reborn into a succession of mental states such as hunger, irritation, the memory of an event from the past, awareness of a sense feeling. This cycle of "birth" and "death" is clearly distinguishable from the concepts of reincarnation and rebirth (as hitherto defined in this article) which are concerned with what happens after conventional death. This aspect of rebirth is taught certainly within the Theravadin tradition and probably other schools as being observable through meditation practice.

Unless there is justifiable objection, I would like to add some narrative to describe this and to link it to other concepts such as Vipassana and Anatta.

VirtuousCircle 00:41, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please do! This is definitely needed. --Munge 07:49, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Finally managed to produce what I suggested above. Needs review and maybe some rework of the original material which I have mostly kept intact. All comments welcome.

VirtuousCircle 23:34, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Buddhist texts which cast doubt on reincarnation

Here's an excerpt from the Kalama Sutra of the Anguttara Nikaya, as translated by Soma Thera

"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.

"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.

While I've emphasized a great number of Buddhist texts that suggest an agnostic viewpoint, this one is quite explicit about not simply accepting (as the current article says) that "According to Buddhism, there is a cycle of rebirth..."

Also, as I've pointed out elsewhere, In the Sabbasava Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 2, Gautama says that the result of attending to unhelpful questions, such as "Was I in the past?...Shall I be in the future?...Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?"...are several kinds of unhelpful views, including "I have a self" and "I have no self".

Note those unhelpful views are the result of speculating about rebirth. --Munge 07:47, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Very good

Congratulation : )

i was discovering the french article and began to doubt reading that an non-personnal soul went from life to life ^^
Wondering how to work on the article, your is a very good model. Nice job, sure. pyl 02:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to correct comments in the entry about Judaism. Judaism actually has a very complicated system of reincarnation/rebirth called gilgulim (discussed in a lot of Kabbalistic literature, but foremost in R' Isaac Luria's (the Arizal's) Shaar HaGilgulim (Gate of Reincarnations). Most notably, in these later generations, it is actually very rare for a unique new (ie. not reincarnated) soul to be born into the world. In other words: according to Jewish Mysticism, the majority of living people are reincarnations of earlier people. There are other aspects of souls coming to visit this world including dibbuk (possession) and ibur (most literally translated as impregnation). 212.179.71.70 11:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)yitz. may 09 06

Something missing

Given that this page is linked to almost every time rebirth is mentioned in an article on Buddhism, it would be helpful to have something to define what rebirth in Buddhism actually is. Instead, the article wades into a polemical dispute right off the bat. RandomCritic 02:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Deletion

I've removed the following passage, since I doubt its authenticity:

==Buddhist Oedipus Rex Syndrome== The being in this intermediate state was known as a gandhabba (Sanskrit gandharva), and for pregnancy to occur a gandhabba is propelled towards rebirth through its desire for sex. The gandhabba witnesses its potential father and mother in sexual union and (if it is male) experiences lust for his mother and hatred towards the father, whom he sees as a rival (and vice versa). (Modern technologies, such as in vitro fertilization and cloning, would seem difficult to accommodate into this account.) Through its desire for sex, the gandhabba interposes itself between the parents. It then installs itself in the womb until birth takes place. Not all gandhabbas are conscious of their actions, for example, it might enter the womb to shelter from a chaotic storm.

I have never read anything like this in any traditional Buddhist commentary, and there would seem to be anachronistic Freudian interpretations creeping in here. I request a verifiable source (scripture or traditional commentary) for this statement -- I see that all the references are modern secondary interpretations, which are not always reliable. RandomCritic 15:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The "Esoteric" Interpretation

(Ksolway: 13 Nov 2006) This is the interpretation which views the language of reincarnation simply as a poetic or metaphorical means of talking about cause and effect, change, or the process of becoming.

It is not properly dealt with in this article.

"Traditional" (exoteric) reincarnation happens in a narrowly linear way. For example, it is claimed that the current Dalai Lama is the reincarnation of the previous Dalai Lama. Most Buddhists believe that they will have a future life *distinct* from other people. They do not believe they are reborn as their children, for example - even though cause and effect dictates it.

Cause and effect does not happen in such a narrowly linear way that is confined to a single line of individual consecutive lives.

Thus the teaching from the Bible: "One sows and another reaps", is correct, and echoes the following verse from Shantideva:

"It is a mistaken conception to think,
That I shall experience the suffering of my next life.
For it is another person who dies,
And another who will be reborn." - Shantideva ("Guide to the bodhisattva's way of life")

I propose adding an additional paragraph, or section, explaining this non-linear view that is based on the infinite workings of cause and effect.

Definition Missing?

I am not sure necessarily a definition is missing, as such, however i think some outlined are trying to explain with a certain obscurity more than the 2/3 listed. My interpretation of 'rebirth' has been that we are the result of the ideas, thoughts, actions etc. of many people before us, who cause our existence and account for our present thoughts, actions etc. (to a larger extent), i propose an analogy for this,

Consider waves travelling across open water, which interfere with each other continuously. Each wave is the result of smaller waves that have come together, and in turn, each wave causes smaller waves. The waves are thoughts and actions; a birth occurs each time a new wave is created from the other existing ones, which continue seemingly perpetually. The new life, though independent, is the result of many lives previously and will continue to affect many lives into the future. (In this sense, nirvana is achieved when a single wave ceases to cause more; it is consumed by the sea, etc...)

I do not submit this to the page as it is certainly not articulate enough in itself, however i propose that such an analogy be used, to improve clarity. ThinkMedical 20:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Rebirth and Conscious Control

How much conscious control do Buddhists have over where they are reborn? For example (and the reason I ask) can the Dalai Lama declare just prior to his death "I will not be reborn in China or Tibet" and have it be taken seriously by Tibetan Buddhists? -- 15:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)