Talk:Doom metal

Iommi

Tony Iommi's solo project is very much doom metal, but unfortunately the page about him contains the brief blip about his solo stuff. I don't really think the pages should be merged, but just wondered what everybody else thought? I mean, there's plenty of band info and history, and it just gets jumbled into his page atop all the Black Sabbath stuff. Vegetaman 11:05, 15 August 2006 (CST)

Additions

It was minimal, but I believe that Black Sabbath's Master of Reality was what spawned a lot of doom metal bands. The detuned guitar and the more midpaced or slower riffs. If I added it in error, I apologize, but I recall reading from awhile back that several artists seem to share this opinion (though I can't seem to find those sources at the moment). Vegetaman 10:30, 15 August 2006 (CST)

Sorry, I know this is pedantic, but I added a couple of things. Firstly, a bit on Stephen O'Malley's influence on drone - this is something of an understatement actually, as it was O'Malley who arguably created drone when he invented the didgeridoo around 2000 years ago(LOL!) with either Burning Witch or Sunn O))) (depending on who you ask), and there has not been a notable drone(LOL!) band since that he hasn't in some way been involved with. He's the godfather of the (sub)genre really.

<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/db/O%29%29%29rly.jpg">

Secondly, I added sludge doom to the "Stylistic Divisions..." section. Whether or not it can be classified as doom metal is a highly contentious issue, but doom-metal.com lists it as so, and reviews albums by sludge bands, so I'm going with it.

Lastly, a small touch: I removed Esoteric from the "Psychedelic Doom" subsection on account of them being more funeral doom in terms of song length and lyrical content, and due to their apparent hatred of the world and everything in it. I can see why they were down as psychedelic doom though; their songs are very "spacey", and the band members openly admit to taking psychotropics listening to their own music, but I don't feel you can have them next to the "groove" of Electric Wizard, Grand Magus, etc. -- Viro

When you get a chance, please, please, PLEASE remove disEMBOWELMENT from the 'funeral doom' page. They are pure doom/death, nothing funereal about them. God, with the fast breaks? Come on.

If anyone is the "godfather" of drone, it is Dylan Carlson of Earth who invented cicadas (LOL!). Sunn 0))) even started out as a tribute to Earth. And another thing, Burning Witch is not really "drone" in the conventional sense. I don't discount that O'Malley has been essential to the development, but the article should mention Carlson before O'Malley. And why are we forgetting Greg Anderson? Or G. Stuart Dahlquist? On another note, sludge can be directly traced back to the founders, Black Sabbath, so it has to be "doom", at least in part. -- Fmalcangi 17:56 02 January 2006 (UTC)

While Carlson arguably created drone(LOL!) with Earth, I feel O'Malley has done more to give the subgenre real credibility(LOL!). I mean, without him, the subgenre wouldn't exist. There would just be Earth, putting out these crazy "one-of-a-kind" records(LOL!). Anderson and Dahlquist deserve credit too, but I was hardly making a list for Chrissakes. And Burning Witch might well be considered proto-drone, but they do sound very, very similar to Khanate, who most would not dispute as drone. Viro 18:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Cemetary

Is the band named Cemetary or Cemetery? -- Zoe

Cemetary (according to allmusic.com). -- Notheruser 00:33 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Neither metal-archives.com nor doom-metal.com list them as a doom metal band. I haven't heard them personally though. --Thomas 23:56, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cemetary is a doom metal band. The thing is, they were only known as Cemetary for a short while before they changed their name. Doomthrone did a cover of their song 'Dancing With The Banshee', which easily confirms their doominess.

Nope, they are not doom metal band however, but one of those progressive/melodic death metal bands.Nothingagainst 03:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Look at this: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawn_Of_Winter

Halo?

Never heard of them, and metal-archives doesn't list them either. I'm reluctant to remove it though because the other bands added at the same time were all fine. Can anybody shed any light?

There are two bands that go by the name of Halo: one playing modern rock and the other a strange hybrid of industrial and doom metal. Their sound is somewhat comparable to that of Fall of the Grey-Winged One, Torture Wheel and other similar artists signed to NULLL Records. I would deem them suitable for inclusion on the list, as they share the aesthetic of many doom bands, and are linked on doom-metal.com's bandlist page. Their website seems to be down at the moment, but here's their Relapse Records band page. -- Viro

Halo is most definately doom. No question. -- Fmalcangi 17:56 02 January 2006 (UTC)

Halo are most definately NOT doom! The Halo on Relapse records (their last release being Body of Light) is more in whatever genre Godflesh and (early) Swans (Young God Records) fall into. Probably industrial to the layman. -- Lugnuts 19:03 10 May 2006 (BST)

Rewrite

I just rewrote the whole thing, in an attempt to make it more complete. I removed the band list, but instead have given a number of typical examples for each style within the doom metal genre. I think this should be fairly complete now when it comes to the essentials. (written by me, Joost, somewhere in January 2005)

Stoner doom

"Stoner doom" seems to be the same thing as Stoner metal, considering that the bands named in this section occur in the list on Stoner metal. On the other hand, that page says "There also are similarities to doom metal, but most aficionados consider the two genres distinct." Which is accurate? -- Earle Martin 20:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm about as much of an "aficionado" as anyone, and I see no difference. Now there is a difference between "stoner doom/metal" and "stoner rock". -- Fmalcangi 17:56 02 January 2006 (UTC)

Stoner vs Doom

Stoner Metal bands hasn't only influences from Doom Metal, so we could distinct Stoner Metal from Stoner/Doom.

Besides, these two genres show psychodelic elements in their works but Stoner rock/metal bands is strongly linked with the "desert rock/metal" scene of early 90's in a Grunge's America.

Confessor

I added a stub on Confessor but they threaten to delete it because they are "non notable". I'm no fan of them (or doom fan), and it's no big deal to me, but if anyone of you would like to shed some light on the band, then I guess it could be nice. --KFD 18:37, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

"A significant borderline case"

The article currently contains:

"A significant borderline case are (early) Cathedral, who are considered a traditional doom metal act by some and one of the originators of the modern death/doom sound by others."

under traditional doom;

"A significant borderline case are (early) Cathedral, who are considered a traditional doom metal act by some and one of the originators of the modern death/doom sound by others."

under death/doom

"A significant borderline case are Electric Wizard, who confusingly balance between traditional doom (according to themselves), stoner doom (according to the press), and sludge doom."

under stoner doom. This seems to be phrased rather badly. Any suggestions on how to solve this? Do we need to include these as 'significant borderline cases' at all? Joost 01:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

They are significant, but arent borderline. Psychadelic Doom ive never even heard of outside Wikipedia and Sludge Metal is a minute fanbase of Doom Metal fans. Not borderline, simply bands doing things that other Doom Metal bands havent done before. Leyasu 03:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

There is no mentioning of psychedelic doom in the article. So where should Cathedral be listed, in your opinion? And how about Electric Wizard? I agree that sludge should be kept on its own page, but the sludge/doom connection has been made quite a few times, so listing it as a category of subgenres of doom should be fine, IMO. Joost 10:48, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Just list them as Doom Metal, as thats what they are. If people try to create subgenres for every band that doesnt sound exactly like each other, there would be a subgenre for every band. Leyasu 11:05, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

So your suggestion is to remove the 'significant borderline cases' sentences altogether, and list neither Cathedral or Electric Wizard anywhere in the stylistic subdivisions category? I guess that should be fine, as both Cathedral and Electric Wizard are already listed in the last paragraph of the history section - both bands are important enough to at least be listed somewhere. Joost 11:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Cathedral is one of those bands that drew in some extra influences to what they do, like Monster Magnet and Electric Wizard and so on. But they are undoubtedly a doom metal band. The kind of lean towards Monster Magnet in that stoner psychadelic doom stuff, but they're still a doom metal band. This subgenre stuff is just too nitpicky and ridiculous. If every band that modified the template got its own genre, it'd be as stated before - a genre for every fricken band. Just list them under traditional doom, and say that Cathedral has some psychadelic style influences. And if you've already fixed this problem, then... Good show. And Sludge does not need to be combined with doom, because it will merely confuse people. Vegetaman 20:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The four "waves"

Four "waves" have so far been recognised in the history of traditional doom: the first one started with the originators of the entire genre, the proto-doom bands Black Sabbath and Pentagram; the second one has been located in the mid-80s, especially in the work of Saint Vitus; the third one started with the success of Cathedral's debut album Forest of Equilibrium; the fourth one has recently been affiliated with Reverend Bizarre.

And how about this? Personally I find this rather far-fetched, and even though this may be an interesting observation by whoever wrote this, to my knowledge there is no such thing as "the four 'waves' of doom metal", which is generally accepted among doom metal fans. Keep or delete? Joost 01:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Delete. While the idea of it makes sense, it's not a real distinction in the scene.

If sources can be cited, then it will be included, if not, then they wont be. Ley Shade 10:13, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

West Yorkshire, Sweden?

A number of bands who embraced this style emerged from the West Yorkshire region of England in the mid/late 1980s, such as Solstice, Mourn and Sweden's Count Raven.

This also sounds rather dubious to me. Count Raven are Swedish but are listed as a band that emerged in the West Yorkshire region. Furthermore, Solstice's first demo is from 1992, and Mourn's first demo from 1993 (according to doom-metal.com). Did really any of these bands emerge in the West Yorkshire region in the mid/late 1980s at all? Joost 01:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Stephen O Malley has plenty to do with the genre from 2000 up. Until then, Drone Doom was perfectly fine.

Drone

Drone metal and doom metal are hardly the same thing. Why the redirect? --GreatCthulhu 03:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Because as the current wiki view seems to be that all Drone related Metal is Doom based. All the stuff you can think of probably is. There are a few one man projects that use Drone in the Ambient sense, but but it's not connected to a Metal style. Drone Metal seems to be one of these terms that spring up so often. Just another way to say Drone Doom or such like. EDIT: Maybe we should make the redirect point straight to the Drone Doom section, rather than just the top of the article. Dace59 12:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The only straight up DRONE band (with metal influences) that comes to mind off the top of my head is Sunn O))), but it most definitely is beyond "doom metal". But it's a tough call to make. Vegetaman 13:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

True, Sunn have done a few different styles so far, and have managed to Drone while still having something in the ballpark of riffs. But then they've done stuff as well which seems more "standard" Drone Doom. But even if you could call them a true Drone Metal band, without much Doom in their sound, one band isn't enough for a genre or a wiki article. Dace59 13:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I completely agree. Vegetaman 13:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Black/Doom

Some bands have also combined elements of black metal with doom metal. By doing this they have created a new subgenre, which could be named Black/Doom by analogy with Death/Doom. Bands like Agalloch, Woods Of Ypres and even some suicidal black metal bands like Forgotten Tomb, Shining and Silencer could be mentioned.

Amebix

Could Amebix be an early example of Doom Metal?

Black sabbath is an early example of doom metal. I would hardly classify Amebix as doom. Black Flag are well known for starting the whole sludge metal thing as heard on their album My War —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.194.16.170 (talk) 09:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

Trivial

Am I the only person who finds this article spurious, pretentious and useless. There is not one citation in the whole article and looks like original research most of the time. What next? Happy pop? Old Metal? Harder rock? Blach! Candy 17:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

• The All Music Guide has its own article on doom metal as a genre. I think that gives this article at least some credence. Spartacusprime 18:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a ridiculous claim. Anyone moderately versed in heavy metal music would be able to differentiate doom metal as distinct from other genres. It's a term that has been used to refer to bands such as Candlemass and Trouble since long before the many offshoots of the style developed, and remains in common usage. A search for "doom metal" on any given popular search site will yield over one million results, and there are scores of bands that identify themselves with the genre. I will agree, however, that the article does lack citations, but this is easily rectified. Ceeker 12:08, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Ask any metalhead and he'll confirm the existence of doom metal. And how can you not have "original research" when categorizing music like this? It's not like metal is one giant scientific field. What's next? Punk rock? Feh! Dysfunktion 06:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Trouble christians ?

Didn't Trouble always deny that they were a Christian band?Nick227 20:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. Their lyrics are overtly Christian which is what makes them a Christian band. --Pasajero 01:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

And I suppose that makes all bands that sing about mythology pagans? Yeah right.... That's not a good reason to label them Christian. Feyre 15:49, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Folk Doom ?

While I have heard doom metal with folk influences, folk doom in definitely not a subgenre. Any music called folk doom can easily be paired into another catagory of doom metal

Two bands come to mind: Wyrd which is a mixture of Black and Folk Metal but their newer works went a more Doomish sounding way. Agalloch sounds like a Mixture of Progressive Folk with a minor Doomish influence. Other than that I agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.27.7 (talk) 08:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

gothic/doom

gothic/doom seems to be missing at all. it states clearly that gothic metal is not doom metal, but it forgets the crossover gothic/doom. one could argue that gothic/doom isnt truely doom, but that can be said about every other /doom genre as well. and certainly draconian is /doom. it needs be mentioned· Lygophile has spoken 16:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

It's included in article about gothic metal. Nothingagainst 20:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The assumption is that too few bands end up being purely Gothic Doom enough to satisfy the reasonable purists, I would say. Many other bands would fit much better somewhere else. There are such examples of the style like Left Hand Solution (borderline, but still) and Avrigus, off the top of my head, but just because there are bands in the style at all doesn't automatically justify making a category (humppa metal, anyone?). --Ruinistis 07:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

A little clean up

I'm up to remove this from Genre misconceptions section:

"The opposite also frequently happens - bands like My dying bride and Opeth are frequently called Death metal bands, when they have far more in common with Doom metal and even Black metal, which is arguably as influental upon modern Doom metal as death metal, possibly more influental. Many think that any bands with growled vocals belong in the death metal category, but death metal is typically very fast, or melodic if it is meodic death metal, and usually features lyrics of gore, death and satanism, whereas doom metal is notably more atmospheric and slower than death metal, and often has lyrics based around either depression, religion and sexuality (the more gothic end of the doom metal spectrum), or based around witchcraft, paganism, pshychadelia and drugs (the more stoner metal end of the spectrum.)"

I think this is really unneeded, out of context and too much based on subjective opinion. Nothingagainst 20:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Despair and mysery?

I don't feel miserable when listening to Doom Metal, it seems to be a rather short sighted statement that doom metal "invokes an air of darkness misery and despair", darkness doesn't equal despair, many people revel in darkness but are very happy. Feyre 15:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Is Pantera`s FLOODS a doom metal track ?