Talk:Authentic Matthew

• Archive 1 (Feb 8 to Aug 21):
• Archive 2 (next to start):

Finding an agreed solution

I am seeking to find an agreed solution to this article. The last VfD had a delete majority, but narrowly no consensus to delete. That must stand. However, according to precedent that still leaves merge, move or redirect as legitimate options. I am thus canvassing the views of interested editors.

Please note. Much of the original material has already been merged elsewhere. Origins of Matthew's gospel are discussed under Gospel of Matthew and Synoptic problem. Gospel of the Hebrews has its own article. No New Testament commentary or Bible Dictionary, to my knowledge, refers to a document called 'authentic Matthew'. The name is POV. For further arguments see above discussion.--Doc (?) 21:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Options (one user, one vote SVP):

1) Keep this article (however cleaned-up) here.

Those in favour:

1. I think it is time to work together. Authentic Matthew by ed. Acjelen is a good place to begin. Option 2 would violate the Vfd Keep and land us back in trouble. Merge and redirect failed to get much Vfd support. --Poorman 23:04, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

   The VFD result was 21 votes:DELETE, 4 votes:MERGE, 11 votes:KEEP. Respecting the VFD result requires that we delete the article. ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 10:39, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

2. I feel that the VfD vote should be respected. Yet, Doc did have some good points. Let us work together in good faith. Authentic Matthew by Acjelen is a fair treatment of the subject. R.E. Brown, 1997 Introduction to the New Testament N.Y. Doubleday studies both sides to the debate. We cannot solve this dispute but we can write an article worthy of Wikipedia --Melissadolbeer 05:45, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

   User has already voted - Poorman is a sockpuppet of Melissadolbeer (check contribs history, and this edit where Poorman signs as Melissa) ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 10:39, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

This issued was explained long ago. Melissa and I are husband and wife who sometimes work together. Let us show one another good will and work together --Poorman 23:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Comment. Please let me know the page numbers in R. E. Brown so I can look them up. --Peter Kirby 08:54, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Comment. The VfD was "no consensus" and considered deletion rather than the proposal of merging. --Peter Kirby 08:54, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

2) Redirect this article to Gospel of Matthew - but leaving permission for someone to create an article on 'the sources of Matthew's Gospel' if they wish and change the redirect.

Those in favour

1. --Doc (?) 21:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
2. ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 10:39, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

3) Merge this article to Gospel of the Hebrews - see below.

Please discuss before voting.

Other options

Authentic Matthew

Jerome, in his Commentary on Matthew writes "In the Gospel which the Nazarenes and the Ebionites use which we have recently translated from Hebrew to Greek, and which most people call The Authentic Gospel of Matthew, the man . . ."

It has been pointed out to me that this is a poor translation. More recent publications read as follows: "In the Gospel which the Nazarenes and the Ebionites use which we have recently translated from Hebrew to Greek, and which most people call The Original Gospel of Matthew, the man . . ."

I am willing to concede the point. --Melissadolbeer 06:08, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

The sockpuppet Ghpbermuda already created an article at The Original Gospel of Matthew, which was a copy and paste of Melissadolbeer's version of the article. That was VFD'd at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/The Original Gospel of Matthew with the result of Overwhelming delete. ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 10:39, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Matthaei Authenticum = Evangelium quod Hebraeorum, n'est ce pas?

That is, the text that Jerome says many consider to be the original one of Matthew is the same as the "Gospel of the Hebrews," is it not?

I found the Latin text. "In evangelio quo utuntur Nazaraeni et Ebionitae, quod nuper in Graecum de Hebraeo sermone transtulimus, et quod vocatur a plerisque Matthaei authenticum, homo iste qui aridam habet manum caementarius scribitur istius modi vocibus auxilium precans: Caementarius eram, manibus victum quaeritans. precor te, Iesu, ut mihi restituas sanitatem, ne turpiter mendicem cibos." Translation: "In the gospel which the Nazoraeans and Ebionites use, which we recently translated from Hebrew speech into Greek, and which is called by many the authentic [gospel] of Matthew, this man who has the dry hand is written to be a mason, praying for help with words of this kind: I was a mason, seeking a livelihood with my hands. I pray, Jesus, that you restore health to me, lest I disgracefully beg food." I do not believe that Matthaei authenticum is presented as a title but rather as an assertion, i.e., that Jerome reports that many people believe this to the original text written by Matthew. This text is commonly known by scholars as the "Gospel of the Hebrews" (evangelium quod Hebraeorum in Jerome, On Isaiah, preface to book 18 and Jerome, on Isaiah 4, commentary on Isaiah 11:2; Hebraico evangelio secundum Matthaeum in Jerome, commentary on Psalm 135; evangelio quod iuxta Hebraeos scriptum in On Isaiah 11, commentary on Isaiah 40:9; evangelio quod appellatur secundum Hebraeos in On Matthew 1, commentary on Matthew 6:11; Evangelium quod appellatur secundum Hebraeos in On Famous Men 2). My first preference is to merge this page with Gospel of the Hebrews, since Gospel of the Hebrews is the term used in English-language scholarship. Thoughts? --Peter Kirby 07:40, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

It was already merged before even being put up for VFD the first time. ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 10:39, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

It's not merged now. Do you that agree it should be? --Peter Kirby 10:56, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I am willing to go with Peter on this (NB -Ril- is banned from editing Wikipedia at ths time, and so his comments should be ignored). --Doc (?) 11:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Second Issue

In the meantime, whatever happens to the article, there are currently two versions, which of them is more suitable

• Version 1 - Melissadolbeer
• Version 2 - After Version 1 has been somewhat culled by Acjelen
• Version 3 - Wikified, cleaned up, and NPOVed version

If the article survives, then one of these needs to be chosen. Likewise one needs to be chosen in the meantime during discussion of more permanent issues.

Version 1 (Melissadolbeer - Original)

Version 2 (Acjelen - Original after culling)

Version 3 (Cleaned, NPOVed, and Wikified)

1. ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 10:48, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Other