Talk:The Culture

Aesthetics of Marain

Just to explain my revert. I can't remember where it's said now, but I'm certain that the aesthetic value of Marain is discussed in one of his novels (along the lines in the article). I did think it was in his "A Few Notes On The Culture", but it's not. Can anyone recall where this comes up? --Plumbago 11:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Might this be The Player of Games:

"Another change, [Flere-Imsaho] thought. [Gurgeh] had altered. ... One reason was that Gurgeh was speaking Eächic all the time. ... when Culture people didn't speak Marain for some time they ... lost the carefully balanced structure of the Culture language, its subtle shifts of cadence, tone and rhythm behind for, in virtually every case, something much cruder."

86.129.83.14 Tonywalton  | Talk 09:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Marain Font

I have produced a free font based on the description of the Marain langauge at [1], font is TrueType and posted at [2]. I'd like to add this link to the article, any comments?

Tomcully 15:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Culture Planets?

I'm not aware of any reference to the culture inhabiting any planets. In Use Of Weapons, there is an environmental issue in a Contactee civilisation where the culture backs space habitats rather than terraforming -It appears the culture ethically prefers to build its worlds rather than colonise a naturally existing one -much like we have green belts and national parks. I think if there are any culture planets, they may only be those of hstorical significance (homeworlds of the pre-culture civilisations). I'm going to go ahead and change this, because things take long enough around here and I'm in a doing mood, but if anyone knows of a ref. otherwise (maybe in Phlebas) don't hesitate to correct me.

Zepheriah 11:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I've read all the Culture books, and I'm fairly sure planets are mentioned, in a passage listing all the types of place Culturniks live. To be honest tho I couldn't quote it. Certainly they're less prolific than artificial habitats are.

Regarding Orbitals, they have a lot of faith in their force fields, don't they? Perhaps there's levels of dumb backup, simple automated systems with no intelligent controller.

-- Greenaum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.171.129.69 (talk) 18:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Culture planets are mentioned, but more in the sense of the slightly quaint origins of their species, rather than something where a typical Culture person would live.

The orbitals would likely function at least crudely / for some time without automation - they seem to require no external energy for their ecosystems (sunlight coming from the local star) and the side walls would keep in the atmosphere. I do seem to remember that forcefields were necessary however, to keep the plates together. Backups? Heck, you are talking about Culture. They probably have backups whose only job is to think of how to make more backups. Ingolfson (talk) 11:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

weaponry and technology

how about a section on these things?

Uther Dhoul 14:43, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

very good idea, it does feel like this article's getting very detailed on some aspects, yet thin on others. Lets add it to the To-do's.

Zepheriah 11:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

ToDo list

I moved this note from the page -- something of a to-do list:

"Will fill more in later... stuff to cover: absence of laws (mention "slap-droning" from Player of Games. The only real taboo in C is that of privacy. In an "economy of plenty" there is no value save sentimental value. See Diziet Sma for example of Culture names. Also needs references to various "space habitats": Orbitals, Rings, Spheres, those things in Look To Windward, etc."

Ooops... I wrote that, many many months ago. Just following the "always leave things unfinished" rule ... ;) Feel free to steal the above list for your work on the article :-) --Tarquin 20:36 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)

I shall re-add the link to Diziet Sma to the article since it is a nice example of Culture names and now the article's explanation of human/drone names is quite terse, imo. --Blueshade 01:10, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps a section entitled further reading would be good: it would not just list the Culture books, but talk through them, pointing out what aspects of The Culture are described in each, how they relate. Or would this be better as simply part of the text? --Sam

It'd be good to see something about the Effect, or the Effector, the weapon that evolved considerably between the Idiran War setting of "Consider Plebas" and other books that're set centuries after.

Sections spunoff

Moving the minds/ships listing talk to Talk:Mind (The Culture) where I think it belongs... --Blueshade 00:11, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Kardaschev analysis

Re: the remark about the Culture's position on the Kardashev scale - as far as I am aware, the Culture have not ventured far outside their home galaxy (the Milky Way, which they share with us). So it's possibly not the case that they qualify for a level 4 placing. However, (among other sources) they also access energy from the "grid" which essentially allows unlimited energy use. Is this what was meant by placing them at level 4? If so, an even higher rating (at least by the article on the scale) might be more appropriate. Care to comment? --Plumbago 08:49, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

My understanding of the levels was utilization of energy in a given spatial area. Given that the Culture (even with its many megaengineering projects) appears not to have exhausted even the energy accesible from the grid in even the area of a globe, my guess is that Kardaschev levels is irrelevant. We might want to say something along the lines of "If the Culture were to be measured on a Kardaschev scale (disregarding the practically infinite energy available from the grid) they would be a level ...". --Maru (talk) 18:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

every time I've looked at this page for over a year that line's bugged me. Your sentiments (and mine) have gone uncontested for long enough that I think we can happily go ahead and dispose of it. -Zepheriah 00:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Airspheres have no gravity?

The source and overall directedness of the gravitational field in an airsphere is unspecified, but when Zlepe dropped his stylus in _Look to Windward_, it definitely went in a direction he considered "down". --Jonrock 22:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

It could merely have been away from him, or near a portable g-generator, or any number of reasons. Heck, the sphere could be spinning. --Maru (talk) Contribs 23:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Can someone verify: in _Look To Windward_ Airspheres were not commonly used as habitats by the Culture. This might have been because a common Culture technology, fields, made some Airsphere inhabitants uncomfortable. The way I read it, Zlepe's presence in the Airsphere had some of the formality and preparation of a diplomatic exchange, not merely a movement of a Culture citizen to another habitat. --195.127.52.141 12:03, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I don't believe Airspheres are generally Culture habitats. Zlepe was there in his capacity as a scientist or explorer. As far as I could read he was the only member of the Culture in the Airsphere.--Nick 15:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The impression in Look to Windward is that airspheres are a power in its own right; despite their seemingly "uncivilized" appearance, they are not something you should trifle with. The Culture seems to have understood this. --Alvestrand 18:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The airspheres are not of the culture, it is made clear in LTW that the culture are there under licence.

Just to add a tiny point, yes. Nobody knows who built the airspheres or how they're held together. It's suspected that the Behemothaurs, or perhaps their evolutionary ancestors, had a lot to do with it. This is from Look To Windward. Also I'd agree, they have gravity. There's nothing that refers to a lack of it in the book, and a few indirect references that suggest gravity. -- Greenaum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.171.129.69 (talk) 18:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course Airspheres have gravity. That's why the behemosaurs are built like blimps. (For a non-G world, I can recommend Sun of Suns by Karl Schroeder; top notch steam punk.) And no, they are not Culture, it is made unmistakably clear! Zlepe is FAR away from home, no Minds around to help or advise him, he doesn't even have email. /roger.duprat.copenhagen

Culture Technology

I suggest we build a section entitled "Culture Technology" perhaps listed as Section 4 underneath habitats shifting the other sections down one number.

Suggestions please for subsections, i have a nice piece on "Culture Weaponry" I intend to expand it referring to specific weapons mentioned in the books used by key characters. Tactics of Drones and Culture (Contact) Hand-to-Hand combat.

Basically i have descriptions of the following to add under "Culture Weaponry" I intend to merge ship and personal weaponry together as there are both large-scale and handheld/drone versions of many of the general categories here. I am debating whether to add my description of "Knife Missiles" here or under a section on Drones.

Gridfire, Nanohole Bombs, CAMs, Lineguns, Plasma Charges, CREWS, Effectors, Pancakers

Can we have some volunteers to build other sections underneath "Culture Technology" (Personally i think we should leave Ships still under "Habitats"

--Darkpowder

Late in the discussion, but I'd suggest adding knife missiles to Drones if it hasn't been done already. In Use of Weapons, there is a reference to Zakalwe slagging a knife missile with a ".9" rating, and I seem to recall something in that book suggesting that the .9 was a reference to human intelligence (90% as intelligent as a human?) I don't have a copy now, just a suggestion. BaikinMan 14:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

That does not necessarily need to imply that Knife Missiles have sentience. MadMaxDog 07:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Culture Weapons

There should also be a subsection of culture tech on culture weapons, gridfire, and the others. The snare 19:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't necessarily disagree with you. However, one or two lines do not make a subsection in an otherwise very balanced and well-fleshed out article. For the moment, I have moved your addition to another section (and even expanded it a little). Also see my edit summary. Cheers, and no offense intended. MadMaxDog 09:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Reference for claim that Culture contemporaneous with Earth? (Timeline)

the idea that Culture exists at the same time as us was new to me. Reference? --Alvestrand 19:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The novella The State of the Art is explicitly set near-present day (the 1970s if I remember correctly). It also dates Use of Weapons to near this time because of overlapping characters (e.g. Diziet Sma). Also, Consider Phlebas includes a time-line in its appendix that relates the events in that novel to our timeframe (though it's several hundred years ago by our standards). Incidentally, the Culture's always explicitly been set within the Milky Way. --Plumbago 19:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

thanks - The State of the Art added to shopping list! --Alvestrand 19:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Hope you enjoy it. I'm more a fan of the novels myself, but it's still good. Cheers, --Plumbago 19:47, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The appendix to Consider Phlebas says that the Culture-Idiran War ended in 1375AD. Excession is set 500 years later, so around the end of the 19th Century. Look To Windward is set 800 years after Consider Phlebas, so around the end of the 22nd Century. The events in The State of the Art are set out in a letter from Diziet Sma to an academic named (or from a place called) Petrain. Before setting off to find Zakalwe in Use Of Weapons Sma tells her drone Skaffen-Amtiskaw to "write a stalling letter to that Petrain guy", so putting that stream of Use of Weapons sometime in the future, and Sma's writing the letter further ahead. (The GCU Arbitrary's visit to Earth is in the spring of 1977.)

Nice to have somewhere to share that nerdy thinking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.182.93 (talk) 14:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Excession includes a reference to heightened signals security following the "Azadian Matter" from The Player of Games, putting PoG somewhere between Phlebas and Excession. (Displacement technology is also mentined in PoG; thus I have changed the article slightly with regards to that technology's earliest use.)

Culture references in other Banks books

I'd like to add this, with a link to The Bridge. I've a feeling there are some others. Thoughts? Guinnog 21:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The Algebraist

I added the section below into the discussion page on 'The Algebraist' a couple of days ago, but thought it might be worth repeating it here for comments...

"Yes, but there are some startling similarities! [ie Between the human factions in the Algebraist and 'the culture' Universe] For example, the Beyonders seem to be a grouping that very much resembles the origins of the society that became the the culture (as described in Banks' notes on the culture essay). The Mercatoria is thus much like the oppressive regimes that were seeking to stifle the 'proto-culture'...

The AIs are very much like the Minds of the culture.

All a bit moot I suppose, since the history of the culture is older than that of Earth bound civilisations (which are explicitly referenced in the Algebraist) and the culture is known to have visited Earth (State of the Art).

Having said that though, the Algebraist does make reference to two strands of humanity the 'remainder humans' stuck on Earth and the ones who were kidnapped and 'mentored' as part of the galactic culture.

Even so, the timelines quoted for this book an the culture novels don't seem to tally, so what I think is a nice idea, doesn't seem to work! :-("

Anyone else think this or have any other comments?82.211.95.178 09:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I noticed the parallels too, but in fact I was more impressed at how he was NOT falling prey to a "oh I'll just make them act like with my previous ideas" kind of pitfall. Algebraist was clearly Banks, but not Culture. Ingolfson (talk) 10:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Nicely put! 82.211.95.178 (talk) 13:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Culture Biology

I changed "bodies can be gender reassigned according to whim" to "sexual organs can change from male to female with a mental command".

Earth gender politics aside, what actually happens when a Culture human changes from wo/man to wo/man is exactly what I describe above: he or she activates a different set of gonads. Apparently they have both sorts and what Banks has referred to as a "rotary system"- to move them about presumably. I think it was in "The State of the Art" in fact (where the guy who goes native has his removed to resemble the locals better). I seem to remember something about how nothing else much needs to change, since the Culture humans are all drop dead gorgeous so man, woman, it doesn't really make a difference, but I don't have the books at hand (they 're half a continent away) and I can't check for sure, sorry. Stassa 21:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Culture tech goes beyond sex changes, males can become females and give birth and this is an inbuilt choice, I forget which book it is in(maybe player of games) but it is implied that every culture humanoid gives birth to 1 child, culture humanoids can change their boby to an amazing degree. Also culture tech is not limited by DNA, in Excession iirc 1 agent of SC wanted a body of another species, they gave him it. They also saved his head from a bad mission and regrew his body. It is implied that culture humanoids have control over their own DNA.

The regrowth from a head only was in Use of Weapons. Though obviously, since they can back-up humans into comuter data, and reform them from scratch, that operation was actually a little thing for them (basically a courtesy, so that the information and experiences since the last backup survive as well). As for the DNA - I do not think they control the DNA as such (as an individual, their tech is certainly capabble), but they have inbuilt control over biological and morphological functions to an amazing degree. This includes full (not just cosmetic) gender change. Ingolfson (talk) 10:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Thinking it over, this makes them almost as the shapechangers in State of the Art. Except not as quickly-acting or as much geared to infiltration.... Ingolfson (talk) 10:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Decisions in the Culture

I've just reverted what looked like OR to me. From "A few notes on the Culture" Banks says :

"Politics in the Culture consists of referenda on issues whenever they are raised; generally, anyone may propose a ballot on any issue at any time; all citizens have one vote. Where issues concern some sub-division or part of a total habitat, all those - human and machine - who may reasonably claim to be affected by the outcome of a poll may cast a vote."

While it appears true that in wartime the Minds make a lot of the immediate decisions (though they are most often in the best position to do so), they're treated equally with humans and drones in Culture political life. So the edit suggesting the Minds were in charge is somewhat misleading. Cheers, --Plumbago 08:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I had reverted a prior version on the same grounds. --Guinnog 08:14, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Cool. I hadn't spotted that. Cheers, --Plumbago 09:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem with that. I stand corrected, having read only a small part of the Culture books. Still, the statement about wartime actions was not OR. Unless you consider OR as mentioning something described exactly that way in the book. MadMaxDog 10:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Nor is there any problem with what you tried to add; just that it seems an oversimplification. Maybe we can use an adapted version, especially if you can give a specific quote, ideally with a page reference. --Guinnog

04:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, lets see, if I can find it. Page 309 in 'Look to Windward' (Orbit 2001 Edition): "Just the contemplation of a loss on such a magnitude was sufficient to give the strategic planning Minds of the Culture's war command the equivalent of ulcers..." - I understand that this does not mean they make the ultimate decisions. More like generals in a human democratic civilization, I guess.

Page 312 in 'Look to Windward' (Orbit 2001 Edition): "I (Masaq' orbital Mind) was part of the decision-making process, though even if I'd disagreed I might still have acted as I did. That's what strategic planning is there for." - Note another reference to the strategic planning.

If you don't agree that this shows a certain 'First among equals' status of Minds in the Culture (if only because they are so much more suited to some tasks), then I'd say it still merits a paragraph somewhere about their organizational structure. MadMaxDog 07:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Socialist?

Does it really seem socialistic to anyone? I would like to remove that, but want a second opinion first? Anarchistic I can buy. - cohesion 01:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

While I do get your implied point - the thoughts associated with 'socialistic' don't fit what the Culture represents - 'socialism', as defined on Wikipedia, hits relatively close to what the Culture is (especially the first para, though obviously the socialism definition was not written with a post-scarcity society in mind, at least not in this form). One could certainly argue that the means of production are in the hands of the citizens. Long rant, short comment - please do not delete, unless you find a better link to replace it with MadMaxDog 07:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Given that it's got a powerful semi-secret police force with a decision mechanism ("Special Circumstances does what's right") that seems only weakly bound to its publicly avowed decision mechanisms ("the citizens vote"), and not much hint that individuals are in charge of the means of production at the scale of Orbital-building (so one can assume that "the state" somehow is)... yes, "socialist" seems to fit. As far as any label fits the Culture, and as far as the label "socialist" fits anything. --Alvestrand 07:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

In Player of Games and Look to Windward substantial elements of humans influencing the design of Orbitals exist (the girl in 'PoG' is actually studying to be a 'landscape designer' if I remember it right, and talks about building floating islands...)

Special Circumstances probably has a similar accountability as current western secret services. I.e. details only come to light later or not at all, but the main lines of action are given by authority. Which brings us back to the question of who has authority in the Culture. I still claim that the Minds have a 'primus inter pares' status. May eventually try to rephrase the existing sections describing the power structure...

MadMaxDog 07:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

If you read the books you see that it is not Socialist, bank's stated that he belived in a command econamy but thats not what he wrote. 2 things to remember, first they have a democracy but if you dont like the choice you dont need to follow it. Democracy in the culture is just public opinion. The second point is that no one is given the right to control others. All socialist states work on the princeple that someone has a right to control someone else (as do all states). In the culture that dosn't happen, yes force can be used but there is no lie about a right. As for SC, it has no right to do anything. SC is a group of "like minded minds" just as other groups mentioned in the books are. The culture as a whole is simple a group of "minds" that have the same view on whats the best way to act. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.81.91 (talk)

Banks has described (In A few notes on The Culture) his creation as Succinctly; socialism within, anarchy without. So it is Socialist, as well as other things. Lurker 14:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Involved

To the people who have read all novels already: Are the Dra'zon a sublimed species, or something else? I'm not sure yet... MadMaxDog 09:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd assume they are Sublimed, they seem to behave like the other Sublimed species in the Culture books. Lurker 15:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Although not entirely. You'll recall that they took an active interest in keeping and maintaining their dead worlds (or whatever they were called), and enforcing rules about them. In later books (Excession, f.eg.), Sublimed civilizations are described as being utterly detached and indifferent to the physical world.

Still, I tend to agree. Probably just a symptom of the author's writing style evolving over the decade or two between the two books. 82.69.37.32 16:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Images for this article

I've been thinking about whether images might be a good idea for this article. But how to get some? Obvious idea would be to get some of the books, but that fair use is only allowed on the book articles - would it be acceptable to photograph a set of books similar to this: Image:Gibson sprawl.jpg What do people think? MadMaxDog 07:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

If you were the one who added the picture All_The_Culture_Novels.jpg, you missed out Inversions. Still, nice picture though. Fits into the article well. 82.69.37.32 16:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Dang, I did. Thats good and bad news - I need to redo the image, and I have another book to read that I didn't really realise existed! MadMaxDog 00:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Whoopee - a new novel is coming: Matter (novel)! Ingolfson 11:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Earth Contacted?

The article says:

Seen from Earth, the time frame for the published Culture stories is from roughly AD 1300 to AD 2100, with Earth being Contacted during the end of the time frame, though the Culture had previously visited the planet.

In State of the Art, Earth is visited by the Culture (around 1970), but at the end of the story, the culture decides not to interfere or make its presence known. Is there some other work which involves Earth in which Contact is involved? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Krazdon (talk • contribs) 05:34, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

For a related discussion, please see my comments on the Algebraist above, or in the talk page for that book...82.211.95.178 10:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The note at the beginning of the appendix to Consider Phlebas implies that Earth will be Contacted in the mid-1980s. It's anyone's guess as to what might have changed Contact's mind about Earth. -Father Inire 06:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Oops, I was wrong: the year given is actually 2110 AD. -Father Inire 06:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)