Talk:Tuyll

"Tuyll is believed to have been the seat of the court of the region of Teisterbant, the name Holland being used only from 1101."

I removed the second part of the sentence for being irrelevant. If Tuyll is in the Betuwe that means it is not in Holland. Fnorp 12:09, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The page contained many unsubstantiated and vastly exaggerated claims regarding the history of the family. The early history of the family is shrouded in mystery; and the last edition of the Dutch nobility book (Adelsboek; a Dutch-type of Gotha) let's the family's history (genealogy) begin in the second half of the 15th century (not the tenth century). The wiki-entry, however, gives references leading up the tenth century; although, the name "van Tuyll" is old (like many other toponymical names), there is no evidence supporting the current misleading entry, that makes it look as if the family can trace its roots to the 10th century (this is not the case). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.94.58.246 (talk) 23:33, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

USer 86.94.58.246 has vandalised the article content, punctuation and introduction (which summarises the content) without motivating his or her actions with references, whereas:

A letter of Otto I from 970 about the lordship of Tuyll is quoted from what the reference work on the oldest families in the world "Les plus anciennes familles du monde, J. H. de Randeck, Editions Slatkine, 1984."

The Teisterbant connection is from the website of the town http://www.ertussenuit.com/plaatsen/5312.htm

Some of the deleted phrases are directly quoted from books on Belle van Zuylen, a detailed reference was not given for each of them not to make the article too heavy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.49.41.6 (talk) 15:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Response to your allegations:

I actually gave a reference: Nederland's Adelsboek, which deals with the exact genealogy of the family; the Nederland's Adelsboek is published by the Centraal Bureau voor Genealogie (www.cbg.nl ; the central bureau for genealogy), a government-sponsored institution, which collaborates closely with the Hoge Raad van Adel (the highest government authority regulating titles of nobility in the Netherlands. As I already mentioned: the Nederland's Adelsboek let's the proven genealogy start in the second half of the 15th century. By starting the history of the name in the 10th century, the author of the wikipedia page (presumably a family member) misleads the reader of the article into believing that the history of the family can be traced back to the 10th century; which is obviously not true.As I already pointed out: van Tuyll is a toponym. Toponyms can be very old. However, a similarity of names does not logically imply a coherent genealogy that starts in the 10th century. There is no proof that the namebearer van Tuyll of 970 is related to later generations of van Tuyll. A similarity of name does not necessarily imply genealogical (blood) ties. A lot of other terms in the article are incorrectly translated; a lot of the possessions mentioned are not "lordships" at all. I get a feeling that a family member has vastly exaggerated and embellished his or her family history. While I acknowledge the importance of the van Tuyll van Serooskerke family in Dutch history ( being a descendant myselfof said family), I feel that the article contains many exaggerations and embellishments that amount to a false, incorrect historical portrayal of the family. Hence, a more sober, objective article would serve the ethical code of wikipedia better. Wikipedia should after all not be, a platform for family members to embellish and falsify their family history, but instead Wikipedia contributors should strive towards objectivity.

About the last edits:

The history of the page shows dozens of editors over a period of several years, and research that can be traced to several sources.

86.94.58.246 is the only one of those editors to angrily delete entire passages, instead of qualifying them by for instance writing 'according to the official Adelsboek, the genealogy only starts in x, while other sources such as a study on the 1400 oldest families in Europe, as well as other confirming sources, make a connection with a letter of Otto I "already citing the manor of Tuyll in 970", which is also quoted on the website of the village, and trace back an incomplete genealogy further, as does for instance the website http://www.vantuyll.nl/) See p.1471 of Les Plus Anciennes Familles du Monde, J.-H. de Randeck, Editions Slatkine, 1984. ISBN 2-05-100557-5.

Personal attacks against hypothetical individuals, aggressive style, hasty syntax in the final edits, which make the beginning of the article incomprehensible, as well as claims about Wikipedia, while flaunting some of its rules are not helpful here.

The beginning is now amputated to "From 1483 to 1600 Pieter and his descendants had themselves called van Serooskerke, and van Tuyll van Serooskerken from then on." instead of the more comprehensible "In 1483, Pieter van Tuyll, lord of Welland, was ambassador of Charles of Burgundy to Edward IV of England. The lordship of Serooskerke (in Schouwen) came from Philip I of Spain."

86.94.58.246 is right that the original article is indeed lacking in detailed references and careful qualifications, and is correct to point out that there is no continuous genealogy since 970, but the early history of old families is often not fully documented, and in the absence of incontrovertible evidence open to discussion, and even at times very fanciful (for instance some families tracing back their ancestry to classical antiquity. Legends are hard to separate from history as is the case with Teisterbant, the references to which have also been deleted.

If there are multiple credible sources, they should surely be allowed a qualified mention.