Talk:Zeituni Onyango

Merge

This a WP:CFORK of Family_of_Barack_Obama#Zeituni_Onyango. VG ☎ 19:25, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree - this is an unnecessary article that should be redirected to Family_of_Barack_Obama#Zeituni_Onyango. There is no independent notability and this matter is handled there. Tvoz/talk 20:41, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

No point in duplication. This person is also only notable for being a family member - so she belongs on a family article (split only if that article gets overlong). Agree with merge/redirect.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 20:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

The first post here was made 19:25, and a non-admin user claims "consensus" at 21:01 [1], is this really ridiculous on it's face like it seems? This has to be one of the most un-wiki things I've seen. Obviously there is no consensus to do this nor can it be after on hour. What's next? First poster declares consensus disruptively after 3 minutes based on his own opinion? Oppose any such merge oppose disruptive closing of discussion after 1 hour. We have processes like Afd (mandatory run for 5 days) for a reason so everyone can have a voice, so we can have discussion. There is no discussion and zero reasoning and arguments above. Of course how could there be in just a short time. I ask everyone to follow wikipedia processes on deletion, discussion and consensus. Hobartimus (talk) 04:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you have some comment to make on the merits of why there should be a separate article on this individual? What I see is no independent notability, and to the extent she is known, it is for one thing only - both of which would suggest that the redirect makes sense. So if you think this article should stand, could you share why? Also, don't you think you a should have reinstated the merge tag when you reinstated the page? Tvoz/talk 06:41, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

(please don't modify your comment like that, it's not what I replied to ,ec) Yes, first of all discussion should run it's course with multiple people having the opportunity to comment, so that's a procedural reason for the time being. However also there is the reason that I see no evidence that this person would be non-notable. In fact a simple search of reliable sources on Google News shows that she was notable enough for around 2200 articles at the moment. These are only English language sources and only those tracked by the service. I can confirm that she received international coverage as well outside of the US. It is also probable that the level of notability will increase rather than decrease with time for the moment at least. All these facts lead to the conclusion that this person is far more notable than a good percentage of existing articles, and far more notable than the standards we use for inclusion. Also I fail to see what is the 'one thing' that she is known for? Is it being written about in "Dreams From My Father", is it moving to the US, is it qualifying in an unprecedented manner for federal tax dollars in federal housing, is it contributing to the presidential campaign as a non-citizen? Is it influencing a presidential campaign in the last days? Which would be the one thing, rather it seems that the she is known internationally for many things. There are many Obama relatives who are never written about in the press, because they are not notable for doing anything. Hobartimus (talk) 07:02, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Now 2500 hits, all about one thing: a story about her immigration status that mysteriously came out a handful of days before the presidential election, likely in order to try to embarrass the candidate. There's no evidence that this story is having any influence on the election, and if it does it would belong at most as a small note in the article about the election. That doesn't merit a biography. Nor does being a minor character in his memoir. As for your prediction that the coverage will increase - if that happens, an article can always be created. We are not the news - there will be plenty of time in the future to determine if she has become notable enough to warrant an article. Tvoz/talk 08:28, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

"Now 2500 hits, all about one thing: a story about her immigration status" False. The media reported it even before the AP broke the illegal immigration story. Read the first articles they have nothing about illegal immigration. "There's no evidence that this story is having any influence on the election" did you actually check the articles? If you do some simple searches I'm sure you can find all the articles discussing how the story a few days before election is significant. We have multiple press releases from the Obama campaign. If it has no significance how do you explain the press releases from a presidential campaign? Hobartimus (talk) 09:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

If it has no significance how do you explain also the following "Onyango's case resulted in an special nationwide directive within Immigrations and Customs Enforcement requiring any deportations to be approved at the level of ICE regional directors before the U.S presidential election.[6]" Hobartimus (talk) 09:06, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess it also depends about how you define "one story" or one thing. Obama is only notable for his "political activities" but I think it's a stretch to define "one story" this way that it includes so many things and events. I mean you must admit that there is multiple things here, the immigration status, the special nationwide order to halt all deportations, there is the public housing, there is the campaign contributions, the return of those contributions, being featured in the best selling book by Obama, the coverage itself, possible effect on the election (I know you doubt it, but I think possible is a word that can be agreed on, also effect does not mean it turns it but that it moves some votes) . Hobartimus (talk) 09:20, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

←No, the comparison to Obama is not at all correct. And I disagree with your assertion that these are unrelated stories. All of the stories about Zeituni come back to the immigration status story - contributions and their return are only an issue if she doesn't have a green card, the article itself says that the deportation approval directive came out of this story, we do not write articles about every person in his or any book, and I do not see anything regarding a "public housing" issue - in fact the articles I read say there is no issue and you should be careful of BLP violations on this. You may be hoping this affects the election outcome, but there's no reporting that it is having such an effect, and we do not write about "possible" effects - we wait, because there is no emergency, until there actually is an effect that is notable. You seem to be in a big rush and haven't explained why. In any case, the suggestion was to merge with the already existing section in the Family article, so anything of any real notability can be put into that section. You haven't demonstrated a need for a standalone article. Let's see what other editors think - you've made your point. Tvoz/talk

WP:NOTABILITY

If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article.

Is there anyone, anyone at all, who makes the claim that "Zeituni Onyango" did NOT receive "significant coverage" in "reliable sources"? Anyone who makes that statement in light of the evidence and challenge the inclusion as a stand-alone article. I think it's high time we base the discussion on Wikipedia's rules. Hobartimus (talk) 09:33, 2 November 2008 (UTC)