Talk:Traditionalist Catholicism

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Older comments are archived by chronology: 2003-2005.

Note: Due to the rapid and verbiose nature of this debate, comments are quickly archived. If you are a new commentor who wishes to read over previous comments in the debate, please see the September 2005 and October 2005 sections of the 2003-2005 archives.

'Catholic traditionalism' versus 'traditionalist Catholicism'

What's up w/the title of this article? Why is it Traditionalist Catholic? Shouldn't it be Catholic Traditionalism or Traditional (or Traditionalist) Catholicism? The current title does not appear to be grammatically correct for a Wikipedia article.--Inquisitorgeneralis 23:04, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the use of the term, but grammatically both work with subtly different meanings. Traditionalist Catholic refers to a Catholic who is traditionalist (that is, Catholic is a noun modified by the adjective traditionalist), and Catholic traditionalist would refer to a traditionalist who is Catholic (the inverse, with traditionalist being a noun modified by the adjective Catholic). Strictly speaking grammatically, traditionalist Catholic may be more correct because the article refers to a traditionalist movement within Catholicism, not the inverse. If there is no official or popular use of the arrangement 'Catholic traditionalism', I think it should remain as-is. // Pathoschild 23:26, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, it seems that the subject matter of this article is really more an idea or a set of theoligical beliefs, so it should be an "-ism" of some sort. So I do think Traditionalist Catholicism would at least be a slight improvement. As it stands now, it looks like you're talking about an individual "traditionalist Catholic," as opposed to the movement in general.--Inquisitorgeneralis 06:25, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

vprotected

I protected the page due to the fact that an aol user seems to be continually vandalizing the page. Jtkiefer ^{T | @ | C} ----- 18:15, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Comments regarding the protection of this page have been archived. The above message is left on this page for informational purposes. // Pathoschild 18:53, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Mediation?

I am ready to take this to mediation. Does anyone have any input on this? Lima, if you say no to mediation, thats enough for me. I am not getting involved in your discussion since people are taking this personally. Dominick 13:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

A comment by DominusTecum at 13:26, 10 October 2005 (UTC) has been moved to the Possible Sockpuppet discussion (See above) because it is more related to that discussion. //Pathoschild 17:45, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Please stay on topic.I can't tell if this is a yes or a no. In an article about Catholicism Rome's view is paramount. Dominick 13:48, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Support: Sounds good in theory. But the reality is that Dominick simply has no clue what he's talking about. This is not a "personal attack"; it's a statement of fact (with regard to this issue, that is. I'm sure he has other talents). There is no "addressing the criticisms" of one who can't express himself clearly, changes his mind, mid-stream, on the meaning of terms (even after saying "we have a consensus on this"), and won't look at -- or admit -- the clear evidence provided with regard to how the term "traditionalist Catholic" is used in the real world. Used2BAnonymous 13:33, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, I will take that as an OK from you. The rest of your comment is off topic, your statement of fact sounds a lot like a personal attack, and is not going to serve you well. Indeed I am talking about how the Church deals with traditionalism, those of us attached to the 1962 Missal. Dominick 13:48, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Support: Mediation may be necessary for this article. Neither side of the argument seems to be making any progress whatsoever, and the discussion is devolving into personal attacks. The consensus editing model isn't working for this article. // Pathoschild 17:34, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Separate discussion with DominusTecum

I'm sorry you felt that what I wrote above was "off topic." Fact of the matter is, I am new to this wikipedia thing, and don't know what "mediation" is, so I thought I'd offer my suggestion there. However, that was originally intended to be in the above discussion, where you called me and JLeigh "sock puppets," but you posted your mediation thing first. As far as Rome's opinion being paramount, I could easily say that that is "POV," because theologically, some of us could say that "Rome" has lost the faith. If you automatically claim that "Rome's view is paramount" then that is a serious POV issue. I could say "The conclavists who elect their own Popes" have the truth and therefore their views ought to be paramount. That would also be equally POV. I'm sorry, but this does not cut it. We have to have an article that is as unbiased as possible, I think everybody understands that. Please tell me in no uncertain terms how this new article meets these qualifications better than the old, or what was wrong with the old article. DominusTecum 16:45, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I meant that it was off topic to the question, "Do we want mediation?" My apologies for not being clear.

Let me answer your question in under 10,000 words. My approach is this, We keep the article simple. Use a broad definition, "These traditional Catholics would like to see the worship and practices of the Catholic Church return to those from before the 1960 reforms." I would have included include a bit more about what that entails; preference for the Tridentine Mass among them. It was included, as it is on your forum, the thre categories of traditionalist, who attend Mass at Indults, who attend at other Churches or Chapels, and those who attend in Sedevacanist Churches.

The problems were that the original article used a neologism, "conservative Catholic" which doesn't mean anything in this discussion as it can be interpreted any number of ways. The "true traditionalist" term is also woefully inadequate. There was a lot of insertion of PoV terms, for example, Vatican Hierarchs, and a lot of namecalling when this was changed to the Holy See.

If you look at a diff from now to 2003, you can see the changes. This is the point of wikipedia, other people editing articles to make the concept clear to a layman. None of these people know the difference between the 1962 missal and the 1983. They may have never seen a Catholic Church or a Mass. Defining a term, like traditioanlist and claiming ther are those who attend a Tridentine Mass are actually "conservatives" is unclear. You never ever define one term, by creating another. That is the underlying issue.

Sockpuppets and the like aside, you have to understand the problem have been we looked at his edits, and some were good and some were not. When we made suggestions and changes, he answered with a revert (flip back all edits) to the 2003 article. We went back to the joint article we all worked on, then he reverted. He started reverting against admins, and got the article locked, got himself blocked. All this built up a lot of frustration. When a bunch of people popped up, after he made an account, it looked like what a lot of us here have seen before, sockpuppets. We were sick of the going around and the flipping versions.

Your thoughtful comments don't sound like the same person from before. Perhaps my little accounting of my side of this will assist you in understanding the problems we saw. I can't say it is accurate as I don't know everyone's heart in the matter, I can only go by my own perceptions from the words of the screen presented to me.

Not every traditionalist sees things the same way, I think in a year or so after this Synod, I have a lot of hope. Perhaps we will see a 2006 missal that will make a lot of us on this side of the reforms happy. I think we may see an end to the SSPX mess, but unfortunatly, a lot of them will simply leave the SSPX, for someplace else. I was impressed by Bp. Fellay's last letter on the meeting. I get the idea there is a terrible strain in that organization. I think the most atrocious problems with pink palaces will be way behind us. The cleaning out has already started. So from my end, I see a lot to look forward to. I know a lot of other Catholics are going to be upset because they can't have Masses with Dan Schuttes' wonderful (cough) music (cough cough).

Perhaps there is some hope here as well to get this mess under control. If Lima or Pathos has $0.02 to chip in, please do... Dominick 18:15, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

The major edit by Used2BAnonymous was disputed because of ill-formatting (for example, the summary was over a page long) and perceived POV by the other editors. Some editors suggested that the article be rewritten section by section, which may have simplified and focused the debate. This suggestion was not adopted, and the article devolved into an Us versus Them-style debate which may never make any progress whatsoever. Due to this situation, Dominick has suggested in a discussion above that we resort to mediation (See Meta:mediation) to settle this dispute. Doing so would allow all contributors to have their say, with a neutral third-party to objectively judge and direct the proceedings. However, if all contributing editors are willing, I suggest that the section-by-section discussion be attempted.

I have no position or opinion concerning this debate. I'm actively watching the article to objectively archive and clean up the talk page. I accused several users of sockpuppetry because of various reasons (presented on Used2BAnonymous' talk page) which struck me as highly suspicious. The goal was to prevent abuse of the consensus model, not to push an agenda. I apologize if this caused any offense if my suspicions were ultimately untrue. // Pathoschild 19:51, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Problem Solved

My version with Dominick's sense of the phrase "traditional Catholic" intact (this can be deleted later to clear space):

(deleted to save space as per your suggestion) Used2BAnonymous 19:58, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

That isn't the point, I imagine you are displaying sarcasm. One phrase wasn't the problem. I said it was an issue before and you came out with this type of treatment before, and it was rejected. The first and third sections work hard to all but pry traditionalism from within the Church. Pope Benedict has made it clear that there are changes coming, and changes that we would find acceptable. You included every bad thing you could do to narrow the definition of traditionalist, without mentioning the term conservative. When it comes down to it, if someone says they are dedecated to undoing the reforms of the 1960s, by profession, they become a traditionalist.

Your version contained all the errors without mentioning the word. I can't see going back to that 2003 version again, since we took so much time from where we are now. I think that three divisions issue is important. Any division between people who attend the Mass for "asthetic" resons is not useful period. If you attend a Tridentine Mass out of preference, anyhting we say about it is second guessing it. If we don't metion the SSPX split then this is a real short definition, and I think worthy of an AfD.

I think excising the next section in the current verion, since it has no bearing on traditionalist. Removing the demographics section is good since it is unconfirmable and from a untrustworthy source. I am wondering why we even have thge Sedes in here, since by thier admission many are not at all in the Catholic Church, they may be traditional but not Catholic, by profession. We have uirged you to critique the current version, and give Lima something concrete. Dominick 20:39, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Dominick, first, the post was meant to be deleted AFTER it had been read and commented upon.

Second, you are writing with a STRONG POV. This is NOT a Catechism Class at your local RCIA. This is an article about traditional Catholics, and your concerns that conservative Catholics "are traditional Catholics," too, were addressed in the OPENING LINES. This is NOT an article about the SSPX. It is NOT an article about "what the Church teaches." It is NOT an article about the FSSP. These things have their own entries. This is an article about traditionalist Catholicism, and the typical use of this phrase has been proven to you by links to Google.

As to your comments on sedevacantists, that, too, is STRONGLY POV. Who are YOU to say they are not Catholic? According to Catholic doctrine, if you are validly baptized and do not formally embrace heresy, you are Catholic, and that baptismal mark is on your soul forever. And since when do they not even PROFESS to be Catholic? You simply don't know what you are talking about, Dominick.

If you don't like the line about "people who attend the Mass for "asthetic" resons," I see no problem in changing it to "aesthetic or other reasons" or what have you.

To Pathos: this is what I was writing while Dominick was writing the post above:

Posted the above before I saw your post or I would have responded to you first.

First of all, with regard to the "sock-puppet thing," s'all good. Over and done.

With regard to going over things section by section, I think it would be extremely difficult because the problem is (was?) one that calls for "disambiguation" -- though I now don't think a disambiguation page is needed, and I think the new opening paragraph I propose in the post above (deleted by Dominick) clears everything up in one sentence. Mixing the original topic of the entry with what Dominick was wanting would be like trying to blend an article about tea the beverage with tea the drug. We are talking about two different things, and that's the crux of the problem.

Also in the version proposed above, and per Dominick's objections, the phrase "conservative Catholic" is not used, except once where it is used as an adjective, with "mainstream" before it -- i.e., "conservative, mainstream Catholics."

As for me, I would like to see how this proposed version flies before calling in mediators and such... (something I am not clear about: you say that the "summary" of my revision was over a page long. What does this mean? What is the "summary"?) Used2BAnonymous 21:07, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

The summary is the text that appears before the table of contents, which is automagically inserted above the first header in the text. As per Wikipedia:Guide to layout, this space is reserved for a short text that briefly introduces or summarises the subject. // Pathoschild 21:21, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Ohhh, OK. Thanks. I've been calling it the "introduction." But I see how to fix that problem easily and would insert a header after the second paragraph and above the line, "Traditional Catholics fall into two main groups:" Used2BAnonymous 21:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to propose a summary in the appropriate section under "Section-by-section editing". // Pathoschild 21:56, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Section-by-section editing

Overview

The current article is highly controversial amongst the editors, which has led to an effective impasse of discussions and the indefinite protection of the page. This set of discussions is an attempt to form a cohesive, highly organised consensus on the article on a section-by-section basis. Do not discuss any matter that does not pertain to the section you are posting in. All discussion of the method of section-by-section editing should be placed under the header "Discussion of section-by-section editing". Pathoschild will rigidly control the formatting and organisation of comments placed in this section.

Discussion of section-by-section editing

I propose that we use the system outlined under "overview" above to edit the article. I doubt we can resolve the entire dispute in this manner, but I think we can fix many of the less controversial portions of the article in this manner. I'd like to have feedback from the other contributing editors on this. // Pathoschild 21:49, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Overall structure

This section is for discussion of the headings under which information will be organised. The current headings are far too long. These headings should be renamed to be shortened, for example "Those in agreement with Holy See" instead of "Traditionalist Catholics not in dispute with the Holy See". For reference, the current structure of the article is as such:

User:Pathoschild/templates/blockquote

// Pathoschild 21:49, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

It's not necessary to agree to a complete structure for the article, but some generalisations are needed to make any meaningful progress in section-by-section editing. I propose the following preliminary basic structure:

• Summary
• Categories
  • Those in dispute with the Holy See
  • Those disagreeing with but not in dispute with the Holy See
  • Those not in dispute with the Holy See
  • Sedevacantism
• Criticisms of traditionalism
  • Criticisms
  • Refutations by traditionalists
• Attitutes
  • Catholic authorities towards traditionalists
  • Traditionalists towards Catholic authorities
• Demographics
• External links
  • General information
  • Liturgical matters
  • References
  • Traditionalist organisations

// Pathoschild 22:05, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Here is my take. It is important to realize many Traditionalists are in good standing and full and faithful members of the Church. They enjoy good relationships with the Diocese in where they operate. Your divisions make it seem like most are not, this should be short to start from.
IMHO:

• Summary
  • Characteristics of traditionalist belief
• Issues with Traditionalism
  • Relations with other Catholics groups
  • Relations between traditionalist groups
• External links
  • General information
  • Liturgical links (put a few orgs here)
  • References

(oops lostsig) 23:30, 10 October 2005 (UTC) Dominick 23:32, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

My proposal for the basic structure:

• Summary
• Types of Traditional Catholics
  • Non-sedevacantist
    • Within Ordinary Diocesan Structures
    • Outside Ordinary Diocesan Structures
  • Sedevacantist
• Traditional Catholic Claims
• Traditional Catholics as Contrasted with Other Catholics
• Demographics
• External links
  • General Information
  • Liturgical Matters
  • References
  • Traditional Priestly Fraternities, Chapels, and Parishes
  • Counter Opinions
• Books supportive of the traditional Catholic movement
• See also

N.B. I object to the use of phrases like "those in dispute with the Holy See" because it is vague and because the use of "Holy See" (or "Rome" or "the Church") has very definite and serious connotations for Catholics. I've explained my objections to this (numerous times) in earlier Talk Pages, but to cut to the chase: I think it is more accurate and less inflammatory to use the phrase "in dispute with Vatican hierarchs" -- but Dominick thinks this is "POV" for some reason. Used2BAnonymous 23:43, 10 October 2005 (UTC)