Talk:Leonard Steinberg, Baron Steinberg

Dubious claim

This makes no mention of him being shot. Neither does this or this. The alleged source is not on the Independent's site, and as it is a controversial claim about a living person which seemingly only appears in one source, I have removed it. O Fenian (talk) 00:39, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

It is on the Independent's site. I quote from the interview "ALMOST 25 years ago, a terrorist hit squad tried to kill Leonard Steinberg in Belfast. They were never caught, but the Stanley Leisure executive chairman decided to leave Northern Ireland pretty fast. He's never looked back...Things went from bad to worse. "One of them shot at me through the door of my house, and although I was injured and in hospital, it wasn't serious...just a flesh wound.""

One source is good enough elsewhere unless you indicate a good reason for doubting it. G. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.38.178 (talk) 20:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a quote saying he was shot during the IRA's " anti-capitalist phase which targeted Jews and British business in particular"? It doesn't even say the IRA shot him. O Fenian (talk) 21:09, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes O Fenian I have all the quotes you require from the Irish Times of 24 February 1977.

"From Niall Kiely

A Derry businessman was shot dead and a Belfast company director received a leg wound in separate shooting incidents last night. The attacks are believed to be part a campaign against leading figures in the North’s commercial life launched late last year by the Provisional IRA.

…The second shooting was at the Antrim Road home of Mr Leonard Steinberg, a prominent member of the Jewish community in Northern Ireland who is associated with Stanley’s bookmaker chain. Mr Steinberg wet to answer a knock at his front door and as he walked down the hallway five shots were fired through the door.

Mr Steinberg was wounded in the left thigh but was not seriously hurt. Later last night, his condition in hospital was said to be comfortable.

This is the second Jewish businessman [the previous target was Abraham Herbert on 12 February 1977] to come under attack since the series of assassination attempts began.

…The Provisional IRA quickly admitted responsibility for the attacks and referred to the targets as business elements who formed part of the base “of the British war machine”. One of the homes attacked on that occasion belonged to a Jewish businessman who like Mr Steinberg, was active in his religious community as well as in the commercial world."

You can now check out some of the holocaust sites and seek more evidence of the numbers of Jews killed in Nazi Germany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.95.80 (talk) 19:34, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I still don't see any quotes that say the IRA targeted Jews in particular. I assume you have now admitted to lying about what the previous reference (Sunday Independent) says? Are you sure the date of 24 February 1977 is correct? O Fenian (talk) 22:13, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

O Fenian - why are you accusing me of lying about the Sunday Independent reference? You were the one who said it was not on the Independent's site and I provided the details to prove it existed, and I was right. Now you doubt the date of the Irish Times news article of Thursday 24 February 1977 about the shooting of Leonard Steinberg. It too is correct.

You seem to set impossibly high standards for proof of IRA killings. Perhaps all the businessmen committed suicide? But then why did the IRA state it was killing them as part of "the base of the British war machine"? Jews who were wholesalers, bookmakers and jewellers seem to be especially regarded as part of that base. I wonder why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.160.182 (talk) 13:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

You claimed the Sunday Independent referenced him being shot by the IRA during their "anti-capitalist phase which targeted Jews and British business in particular", when it does not even say the IRA shot him. That would seem to prove my assertion correct.

I did not doubt the date, I asked if it was correct. The article claims a man was shot dead in Derry the previous night as part of the IRA's campaign against businessmen. This is not backed up by facts. CAIN (Sutton) has the man shot dead in Derry on 23 February as a UDR member, and CAIN (Chronology) states that killings of businessmen occurred on 2 February, 2 March and 14 March. Therefore it was quite reasonable for me to ask whether the date you had provided was correct, you will agree? O Fenian (talk) 13:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The Londonderry murder on 23 February 1977 of a UDR man and local businessman was seen in the Dublin newspaper, the Irish Times, as being part of the anti-business campaign of the IRA. That a Protestant was also eliminated may have been more important to the IRA commander in the city but who knows without seeing into his mind. The Jews who were shot or bombed were not in the UDR, neither were they Protestants therefore it is reasonable to assume (as the Irish Times did in 1977) that the murder attempts on them were part of the IRA's anti-capitalist campaign (previously run in 1972) and it should be said not censored. That Jews figured disproportionately, it is not unreasonable to assume, was because they were traditionally associated with finance and capital. Such an analysis is permitted in dealing with the Nazis so why not the IRA, or are their motives singular and pure and thus to be stripped down to the barest of inexplicable facts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.64.251 (talk) 09:18, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Your own analysis and opinions have no place in this article. O Fenian (talk) 20:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Your attack on my analysis is itself a form of analysis or political expression as you are determined not to allow the possibility of anti-semitism being suggested as the reason for attacks on Jews in Belfast. Indeed you won't even allow mention of the IRA's self-admitted and reported anti-capitalist campaigns to be included. Will you or must that be written out of history?

I suggest you go to other Wikipedia sites for a change and instance one similar I picked at random which has the following set of unreferenced/analytic statements in a few sentences: "The Bucharest pogrom was not a side effect of the rebellion, but a parallel event, purposefully organized to give legitimacy to the rebellion, and to equate the Legionnaires' opponents with Jew sympathizers. Many parties took part in the riots against the Jews: police officers loyal to the Legionnaires, various Legionnaire organizations, the workers' union, student union, high-school students, Gypsies, and criminals."

Work for O Fenian there.

11 January 2009 81.156.38.54 (talk) 22:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

If you wish your own analysis to be in Wikipedia, then I suggest you get it published in a reliable source. Please note that talk pages are for discussing improvements to the article, not your own rantings which would be more suited to a blog. O Fenian (talk) 22:06, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I see there is no source specifically attributing the IRA's quote to the shooting of Steinberg. Please refrain from adding quotes out of context. O Fenian (talk) 20:06, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

What do you want, a confessed blow by blow account of every murder and shooting the IRA did? That's not what they do. We have to accept that else no history can ever be written. Perhaps you believe they were done by Martians?

Get real.