Talk:Genocides in history

Soviet Section

Shouldn't there be more added to the Soviet Section such as the genocide of Jews after World War 2 and the genocide of Germans, both in the USSR and occupied Europe after the end of WW2, also what about the genocide of other ethnic groups that found themselves on the wrong side after WW2, like the massacre of the cossaks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.241.73.130 (talk) 11:06, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that states that these acts were acts of genocide? --PBS (talk) 18:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Afghanistan=Vietnam

If soviet war in Afghanistan is genocide then US war in Vietnam too most.95.52.113.129 (talk) 05:02, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that say so or this that your own opinion? -- PBS (talk) 18:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

crimes against humanity

From the history of the article:

13:04, 1 April 2009 Joebobby1985 (→1915 to 1950: Nowhere in the mentioned sources does it say that this was when the concept of crimes against humanity were introduced. It's worthwhile reading upon 19th century history.)

What the source says:H.RES.316-->Text of Legislation is:

(2) On May 24, 1915, the Allied Powers, England, France, and Russia, jointly issued a statement explicitly charging for the first time ever another government of committing `a crime against humanity'.

Although the concept of "principles of humanity and universal morality" had been around for some time, eg at the Congress of Vienna 100 years before when Britain pushed for a declaration on the Slave Trade, as (see Crime against humanity#Abolition of the slave trade. Do you have any source to show the use of "crimes against humanity" in international relations before 1915, and it clearly existed as a concept after that date, so "In 1915, during World War I, the concept of Crimes against humanity was introduced into international relations for the first time" is not an unreasonable statement given the cited H.RES.316 source. --PBS (talk) 18:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello, first off I apologise for a rather late response. I have added in the new sources with regards to King Leopold's rule along with detailed information. However, due to the composition of section titles (where the section after 1915 starts off with giving brief information on when the concept of Crimes against humanity were introduced) I would like to propose a change to the section titles accordingly. The "1915 to 1950" title can be editted to "Late 19th century to 1950" in which it starts off from the first use of the term, to 1950 for convenience.

Kind regards and again, I'm awfully sorry for the late response.

Joebobby1985 (talk) 20:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

There has already been some conversations about The Congo Free State in the Archives, and most historians as the archives show do not consider it to be a genocide so the events do not need to be detailed in this article. The sources you have supplied do not support your assertion "The first inter-state accusations made against King Leopold II dated back to 1907, when he was accused of crimes against humanity by the UK." Indeed this source, one of the ones you provided says "The second time the phrase is known to have been used was in May 1915, when the governments of France, Great Britain and Russia made a declaration regarding Turkey’s massacres of its Armenian population at the beginning of the First World War". The breakdown into the sections as they are have been like this for some time and I am not convinced that your edits have improved the article so I am reverting them. What is the advantage that you see to a section starting "Late 19th century"? --PBS (talk) 22:11, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello, well the article states in its first few paragraphs that it includes genocides and alleged genocides. Therefore The Congo Free State certainly seems feasible under this heading in all fairness.

As for the UK accusing King Leopold I forgot to put the other source in. It was from a book so I'll try to find that and add that in later with the page numbers.

You also mentioned "Indeed this source, one of the ones you provided says "The second time the phrase is known to have been used was in May 1915, when the governments of France, Great Britain and Russia made a declaration regarding Turkey’s massacres of its Armenian population at the beginning of the First World War"." However, this was the second time the phrase was used whereas the original text noted it as the first. The subsequent section deals with the same issue so it's just mere repitition to be honest. On the other hand what I intended to point out was the first time it was used and I used it within that context.

As for what advantages I see in changing the section title: The "1915 to 1950" section starts off with giving an introduction of when the term was first used, however since the term was first used to describe the events in the Congo Free State the title would indeed need to be adjusted accordingly to that. I preferred to use a "Late 19th century" title to be rather vague due to the fact that it is difficult to associate the whole vent to just one specific year.

Kind regards and thank you for the quick response.

Joebobby1985 (talk) 22:46, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

It is not genocides alleged by editors of Wikipedia but alleged by reliable sources. See the archives about the Congo listed there is a reliable source that states most historians do not describe the working to death of millions of people as a genocide. As to he section heading the current wording states "In 1915, during World War I, the concept of Crimes against humanity was introduced into international relations for the first time when the Allied Powers sent a correspondence to the government of the Ottoman Empire,..."(my emphasis) which is what the source you provided confirms. That the phrase it had been used by another entity in a letter is not directly pertinent to this article. That it was used by the British government is relevant as this is still their position. Further those found guilty at Nuremberg were found guilty of all sorts of crimes including crimes against humanity because the concept already existed thanks to the WWI declaration and the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal (but the Charter would have been in danger of being retrospective if the previous declarations about CAH had not been made), they were not found guilty of the crime of genocide because it had yet to be defined as a criminal act (which is not the same as saying that a genocide did not take place).

One thing which Google Books is good for is finding earlier dates for a phrase than one cited in more recent books. For example by putting in search dates from 1790 to 1890 it is easy to see that there are lots of earlier publications that use the term "Crime against humanity". Here is one from 1854. Here is another one from 1855: The Sunday of the people in France by I. Mullois, S. Bunbury, on page 21. Here one which is much earlier; Public characters [Formerly British public characters] of 1798-9 - 1809-10, Published 1804. pp. 526,527 "offensive war is a high crime against humanity and Christianity." by Dr Knox from a sermon he gave in Brighton in 1793, almost 100 years before George Washington Williams sent his letter.--PBS (talk) 00:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah the bolded part clears things up a bit. Then I'll try and get a hold of the book I mentioned where it's stated that the UK officially condemned the actions in the Congo in 1907. (Don't worry it's from a neutral source, something you find on a rare occassion these days when it comes to controversial topics such as these).

However, I have still yet to be convinced with regards to the actions in the Congo not being an act of genocide, especially as there have is clear evidence of an order given by a higher authority to collect the right hands of the Congolese people. Although that might not fit exactly into the definition of genocide due to there not being an explicit aim of wiping out a race/people, I (just personal opinion after having researched the subject) do think it would fit under the label of an genocide when compared to that of other allegations. The "most historians" part also doesn't seem very convincing (and has never been convincing) as that sounds more like an estimate/guess due to the fact that it sets a barrier with regards to research. So if I just brainstorm a bit here I'm thinking of "most historians" according to what? Who are these people? And what about the ones that aren't included among "most historians"? Are their research methods/conclusions (if there are any) not worthy of a mention?

Anyhow sorry about the little brainstorm session, I understand that Wikipedia is not suited for opinions (rightfully so) and that majority > minority (especially with regards to the amusing maps put up on the topic of Portuguese colonialism on another page simply because the 'majority' see them fit) when it comes to editing articles, and I respectfully disagree with that approach for the sake of research (again, another personal opinion) but I must admit that it does prevent further complications. I'm guessing that's just the North American method :p and if I have a problem with it I should just take it up with the Wikipedia staff I suppose. To avoid any misunderstandings, I don't intend to take part in any editing war either as that's against my nature nor do I have the time, will nor energy to take it up with the Wikipedia staff. I'll continue with my own method of personal research and I just wanted to drop a kind suggestion to approaches when it comes to research, that's all.

Kind regards.Joebobby1985 (talk) 01:39, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

P.S: Thank you for introducing me to Google Books, it seems like a useful tool. I wasn't aware of such a tool due to the fact that I'm horrible with computers.

I'm please that you will find the tool useful. As to the convincing you please follow the link to the archive which has the details of the following: "Adam Hochschild includes in his article a paragraph that starts: 'The exhibit deals with this question in a wall panel misleadingly headed “Genocide in the Congo?” This is a red herring, for no reputable historian of the Congo has made charges of genocide; a forced labor system, although it may be equally deadly, is different.'" --PBS (talk) 01:46, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Just to clear up any possible confusion, I wasn't challenging the "See the archives about the Congo listed there is a reliable source that states most historians do not describe the working to death of millions of people as a genocide." quote you made, as that really is the case or else we would have had almost every war being labelled a genocide. I had only intended to comment on the 'most historians' term with regards to its use in general as its used very frequently.

I had already read the archive. However, as mentioned apart from the forced labor system there has been an order to kill. In addition to this, Article 2 of the CPPCG does not state in any explicit way that there needs to be charges made by the victims (in this case Congolese historians) against those who may have committed the act. So in other words, it doesn't sound logical to me to rule out a possible genocide just because the victim party has not engaged in any form of accusations. Although they won't fit under "alleged genocides", I feel it's enough if there are accusations made by any party and that it may/should be worthy of a mention to broaden the perspective, especially when there is sufficient literature written on the subject. One may argue that if an act should be considered as genocide then it needs to have met the prerequisites of a hearing in the ICJ in that manner, but on the other hand most of the cases mentioned here have not even gone through the process of the ICJ let alone having gone through a hearing.

Kind regards.Joebobby1985 (talk) 02:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

See the article genocide definitions and also genocide#Criticisms of the CPPCG and other definitions of genocide. To be included here there is no requirement that the charges are laid by the surviving victims of a genocide, but there is a requirement that he events are described as such by reliable sources. In the case of the Congo Free State Adam Hochschild has stated "no reputable historian of the Congo has made charges of genocide;"(source in the archive) --PBS (talk) 11:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

The various challenges to the definition of genocides in the link you gave only makes the term more vague and strengthens my view on the flexibility of the term that's being used today for many cases of a "genocide", as you acknowledge I suppose. What I meant by sources was not just Adam Hochschild alone, in fact the main portion of the sources I indicated were the sources that contained the quotes from Hochschild. These sources seem pretty reliable to me as they're not linking to any biased government sources or diaspora views and there's even much more waiting to be found out there and it's not very hard to so... but I realise the term 'reliable' is always relative. Despite all this, if you're still persistent with regards to the events in the Congo Free State then I humbly respect your opinion. I'm not one to force results through research down someone's throat as that's against my nature as I stated and this is as far as I'll go. I'm only guessing this is a flaw of Wikipedia where one is forced to convince someone who already has a point of view on the issue, through discussions; I've had a similar experience when presenting a correct map of Portuguese colonialisation in the Americas but was faced with the same views that defend the status quo, contrary to the approach that should be of a researcher especially when dealing with issues like these. Nevertheless, I bid you a good day sir.

Kind regards.Joebobby1985 (talk) 19:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Further reading

The further reading section is a leftover from the time we move the list from the Genocide article and then started to cite all the facts in this article. It was left in place because some of the articles could have been useful as sources for the sections in the article. However it is some years since this arrangement came into place and I intend to delete the further reading section as it is very large and any sources that are likely to be extracted from the section have long since been used. --PBS (talk) 10:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Genocide of palestinians

What about the genocide of palestinians that Israel is commiting?? Nobody talks about that?? I think all we know how many palestinians are dying just for being family or neighbours of some suicide terrorist. Israeli forces sistematically destroy their houses as a punition, it's not a secret. Can you imagine (wherever you are, in the US, Europe, or somewhere in your confortable country) your house being destroyed just because your brother/son has killed someone?? What about the so many olive trees cut off as a punition?? Is this the democracy of a "western" country like Israel??

We could be here writing hundreds of examples of what the israelis are doing to the palestinian peolpe, but even in the 21th century is not polite to say they're commiting genocide, just because they have suffered so much in the WW2 that now everybody feels guilty and no one is brave enough to tell them "STOP".

I strongly believe it must be a section in this article about the genocide of palestinians. 89.131.5.91 (talk) 09:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)