Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming

• Archive #1 - Pre-October 2005
• Archive #2 - October Disputes
• Archive #3 - October Mediated Disputes 1
• Archive #4 - October Mediated Disputes 2
• Archive #5 - November 3 through 13, 2005 (Mediated)
• Archive #6 - November 13 through 25, 2005 (Mediated ) 2005

Seperation of NLP from Criticisms, reducing redundancy, etc

Oh joy, Christmas is on its way. I have just started removing early critters from the NLP bible and looking at making brief. I noticed that science still gets a great deal less air time and weight than the NLP section. I'm sure that will please the babblers. Whatever, lets see what we can do about condensing things. I removed the NLP for coppers section. It could be reduced to a line and placed somewhere else (perhaps in the outrageous claims section:). Cheers DaveRight 03:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is beginning to look more organized and encyclopedic. I removed some more criticisms from the upper section, and placed some of those into the criticism section. It can be made a lot more concise with a bit of work.Bookmain 04:32, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Well done chaps. Looks like we'll have it back in shape in no time. Gave it the once-over and nipped out some repeats. Keep up the good work. AliceDeGrey 09:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I've made some content preserving changes to the introduction and overview. Some of the grammar was poor and the expression awkward. Some attributions are required for the the material in the overview, eg. foundational assumptions, brain lateralization. Can the person that originally inserted that copy add some citations? flavius 15:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

There is a thread on Whispering discussion about eye movements and brain contralateralisation, [1]. There are some references there. --Comaze 00:23, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes Flavius. The content is worth preserving. When it is foreshortened it tends to be denied by NLP promoters: "they didn't say that!" and they delete. Looks fine to me. HeadleyDown 16:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree it is far better when seperated like it is. I don't wish to assume bad faith, but the history of this article shows extreme promotion by NLP people. On top of NLP blowing its own trumpet throughout the literature will make for a very promotional NLP section and there is not much we can do about that apart from point out the obvious bias of fans. NLP fans also seem to consider themselves persuasive, and they think they can reframe the article to suit themselves and do some kind of magic to make everything seem great. Of course the article will simply be balanced out using criticism. I don't think there will be a problem with that though, as long as mediators understand that the pro and con will definitely be quite a contrast. But it is a natural effect of NLP with its intrinsic hype, and the harsh words that science has to say about that (science doesn't like that sort of thing). As long as the article is kept within a reasonable size, and the NLP promoters keep the views open and do not whitewash, I think things will be a lot easier from now. JC

I have reworked the section titled 'Basic Tenets'. These were a mix of tenets and techniques so I renamed it 'Fundamentals' and re-cast the behavioral cues in terms of Dilts' B.A.G.E.L model. I think it reads clearer now. flavius 13:49, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Sure, Flavius. That is clear. I notice Dilt's BAGEL model is also used in literature with Bandler and others. Obviously it is about the most important and recognizable background model, or fundament as you quite clearly call it. It also points out the kind of conceptualizations they use throughout. Regards HeadleyDown 15:26, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Where is the discussion regarding the disputed protions of the 'Overview'. The foundational assumptions appear accurate (I scanned through some of my seminar manuals -- Sikes, James -- and was able to corroborate most of them. Perhaps the problem is that these largely implicit assumptions are not conventionally presented in this format. Admittedly, when the assumptions implicit in NLP are made explicit NLP comes to resemble Dianetics. I suspect that this is the source of any dispute. I can attempt to rework this section, presenting the foundational assumptions in a more NLP idiomatic manner and with citations. Shall I proceed? flavius 03:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Some minor fixes:

• Left/right brain is often referenced, but not usually treated as "central". NLP tends to consider things central which can make a difference, such as VAK, or language. The physical structure of the brain doesn't usually get considered a central theme.
• Removed "however". In this context it implies a POV.
• The overview of NLP doesn't represent it clearly. Minor changes to the wording to clarify the significance of these.
• Moved round wording in "goals". HOW something is done isnt a goal, so removed that bit. And "re-programming" --> "changing" (reporgramming is a POV term and not used within NLP, it's mainly associated with cults).

FT2 04:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I have reorganized a couple of sections - thus made "overview" a section including subsections for engram, brain lateralization, foundations, etc. I think it makes more sense that way when you read the contents. FT2 07:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi FT2. NLP does not receive wide support. Just because it is listed in some associations (alongside primal scream therapy, EFT and other such pseudos) it does not mean wide support. To prove wide support in this case you would probably need to conduct a poll. And the result would be "what's NLP?" or "you must be kidding" etc. Just to keep things equal and easy to handle, it was suggested that we keep a nice free space for NLP promotion, and a place for criticisms. Criticisms does not mean "mixed reviews". It means people do not like these bits about NLP. You already have the associations that support NLP in the promotional sections. If you want to avoid the problems you caused previously, I suggest you start acting cooperatively and just do your thing with writing dubious sections about cognitive awareness etc. HeadleyDown 14:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Hey Headley, I guess FT2 still thinks NLP was conceived by Stephen Pinker and Susan Greenfield, with full benediction from George Lakoff:) If all you have is NLP books on your shelf its going to look like a big subject. Last week I asked a PhD psych and clinical therapist what they thought of NLP. They hadn't heard of it:) I told her it was advertised on the BPS and she said "well they'll advertise anything". FT2 seems to be working with a map generated from hype rather than fact. I liked Sharpley's veiled insult to NLP; It would be like psychoanalysis (a pseudoscience) but it failed the test:) Then he calls it a cult and a fad. Its was a demoted pseudoscience in the 80s. Then came the mass dumping, and now its just a joke certificate like "diploma in phrenology", "O'level in Dianetics Auditing" or "City and Guilds in Physiognomy". Cheers DaveRight 02:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I reworked the 'Foundational Assumptions' sub-section. It began "NLP authors tend to emphasize a focus on obtaining results rather than working with theory" and then proceeded to outline the rudiments of NLP theory. It was also contaiminated with elements of technique and objectives. The stuff about the Meta/Milton Model is redundant and in any event it doesn't belong in a subsection that is supposed to describe the foundational assumptions. Also I created a new section about NLP practitioners stated position on theory and put the relevant text (that was in 'Foundational Assumptions' in there. flavius 05:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I've extended the 'Foundational Assumptions' into a set of basic premises that undergird and distinguish NLP. I don't think its complete and the last two don't appear right. GregA had some ideas about NLPs foundational core. GregA, what do you think? flavius 06:56, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Flavius. It looks much better that way. You may expect the NLP whitewashers will change it back though. I'm glad the article has become more manageable. It also makes it more obvious when FT2 and the other promoters run around in their whitewashing panic. Whatever happens though, there is still a lot more clarification for the criticisms section. I have just got through some interesting stuff from Europe criticising NLP. I'll add when I've more time. ATB AliceDeGrey 07:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Note: I'm still working on the 'Foundational Assumptions' sub-section. I'll complete the citations and extend the list of premises shortly. Bear with me. All premises will preferably be sourced from NLP primary texts and cited properly. flavius 22:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to expand the 'Stated Attitude to Theory' sub-section. Dilts et al (1980) devotes a few pages to distinguishing NLP as a 'model' and not a 'theory'. The terms 'model' and 'theory' are used by Ditls et al (1980) in an idiosyncratic manner entirely inconsistent with their usage within the domains from which they originate (namely science and philosophy of science). Their motivations for this idiosyncracy are a matter of conjecture and potentially POV but its existence is a matter of brute fact. I am considering including an authoritative definition of 'theory' and 'model' alongside Dilts et al's because this matter of NLP being purportedly atheoretical and hence somehow beyond the scope of scientific testing or even meta-theoretical analyses recurs in discussions, seminars and texts. Any opinions?

I propose that the references section be one monolithic (sorted) list for the following reasons: it would make redundancy easier to eliminate and it would prevent it in the future, references would be easier to locate and it is conventional practice. flavius 00:33, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes Flavius, there don't seem to be any good reasons for Dilts to make the model/theory distinction. Model is often synonymous with theory, so it is dubious to say NLP does not have a theory/theories. Certainly it seems to be there as an excuse. Of course it doesn't work:) It got well and truly tested. I think it may be easy to relate to "asking how rather than why". Again, this is a great cop out. It basically turns every technique into a meaningless ritual. But of course, normal psychological models are there to explain and predict also (they answer why).

Yes, presently the refs are hard work. A simple alphabetical list will make it easier. Regards HeadleyDown 02:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Mind-body split

Hi Flavius. I think one thing to mention would be - mechanism of action . That is something that is left out of NLP. Of course it is just to get people to do what they say. Don't ask why! Some of it has been partially explained though. Dilts does write about left/right eye movement stuff and brain in his encyclopedia. Its still mind myths though. So simplistic! Anyway, both models and theories are supposed to explain mechanisms of action (or there should be literature to do that), but Dilts et al just come up with their false dichotomy because most folk don't know the difference. Actually most folk just hear a lot of jargon and psychobabble and give it a miss altogether. I have to admit though, they fooled me for a while (till I looked up NLP in an encyclopedia "a vaguely defined fringe therapy that proposes 10 minute cures". Cheers DaveRight 03:09, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Grinder (and I've heard Bandler agree) rejects Descartes "original sin -- the mind-body split" (eg. Turtles all the way down, J Grinder & J Delozier 1986 pp.xx,xxi; Whispering, J Grinder & C Bostic St Clair 2002 ch.3; see also, Proposed distinction for NLP articles by Grinder, Bostic St Calir and Robert Dilts) and similarly rejects Cartesian split (Whispering, Grinder J Grinder & C Bostic St Clair 2002 p.222; Steps to ecology of Mind 2005, T Malloy, J Grinder, C Bostic St Clair p.34). --Comaze 06:25, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Comaze. You saved me some work. flavius 09:12, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Comaze. I believe DaveRight's mention of lack of mechanism has nothing to do with mind/body split. The fact is, NLP doesn't satisfactorilly deal with mechanisms of action. Indeed the refusal to seperate factors can be considered a holistic notion. The mind/body split could be included in pseudoscience under mantra of holism, and it could also be mentioned under "new age therapies" because it is common with new age notions. Either way it is a simplistic or banal truism - the body influences the mind and mind influences the body. AliceDeGrey 06:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Alice, it's important to document the many (often implicit) assumptions the underlie NLP, even when they patently false or banal. flavius 09:12, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I think you are right Flavius. Certainly whitewash is not a good idea. We already have NPOV recommendations to write anything factual even if it is objectionable. HeadleyDown 12:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Criticisms are there to criticize and clarify

Comaze and all the other fanatics, (especially FT2). Adding little bits and pieces of non-criticism to the criticism section (actually they are rather large and leading the article towards the 100kb mark) in order to negate it somehow is completely transparently biased behaviour. You will simply get reverted doing so. Presently, the article is in the process of re-organization (within each respective section) and as such, we could do without all the sneaking around deleting conclusive criticisms and replacing them with brainless rambles from NLP excuse literature. Cited or not, those sort of dodgy edits will be booted off the article by me or anyone else with a brain. Just keep it in line with clarification, rather than deleting criticism, or muddying and clouding issues. I am not just picking on you Comaze (though you have spent months sneaking around like this). This also applies to the other desperately unconvincing NLP fanatics. DaveRight 03:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

What definition of criticism are you using? It seems to be different to the typical definition used by wikipedians. Criticism is for critical analysis -- this should be neutral and show all points of view, even if are contradictory to your POV. Your recent reversions are not helpful and seems to expose a bias and selective quoting [2] and [3]. For example, HeadleyDown and DaveRight in unison remove this statement that is intended to clarify the various points of view about NLP use in cults (especially given that cult requires some comparison to orthodoxy). --Comaze 03:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

No Comaze. I am using the proper definition of criticisms. You are using the fanatic's version (non criticism and then excuse). What we have here, is NLP (where all the literature is selfpromotional and full of obscurantisms designed to confuse people) and then we have actual criticisms cited by critics. The article is presently in need of adjustment for brevity, so your additional excuses are not helping at all. Considering your rather extreme history with this and related articles you are going to find it extremely hard for your edits to stick. People know your game, and they will simply revert because you have not changed from the multiple deletion per day for months Comaze. Only your promotion scheme has changed. It is extremely funny to watch your transparently zealous activities:) DaveRight 03:31, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

What exactly is your definition of criticisms? It seems to differ from the typical wikipedian. How do you explain the removal of a statement that clarifies this biased POV, "other christian ministers advocate the use of NLP (eg. use of sensory-based language [4]) in church services." Other citations were removed at the same time, without discussion or proper comment. --Comaze 03:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello Comaze. You are past your 3revert a day limit. Regarding your edits: The Christian ministry edit is pure promotion, and as such it is not criticism. If you want to promote NLP as a religion, do so in the NLP section. Your edit on metamodel/linguistics is unrelated to what Levelt is talking about. So it should not be there. You also deleted Dave's edits with no proper explanation. AliceDeGrey 04:03, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Alice, To my knowledge, I have not exceeded 3RR. You response shows a complete disregard for the citations that I presented with page numbers and references. Please check the references, I'm sure you will find that they are directly related. --Comaze 04:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

You are extremely biased, Comaze. I understand that some people can be biased and do neutrally minded editing, but you have just proven that your edits are biased. I looked up the references and you are presenting unrelated information in order to cloud the issues. The article should be concise and clear, and you are going the other way. What's more, Carroll does not even mention the word "universally". Carroll makes a specific statement, and you want to change it to make it mean something else. I do not care if you present 1000 citations with page numbers. Your extreme bias towards promotion is clearly highlighted by your today's devious actions. AliceDeGrey 04:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Let's get to the real issue here. You (HeadleyDown, Dave Right, AliceDeGrey) have removed statements exposing a systemic bias between this group of editors. Calling something a cult is pure POV so it needs to be covered from multiple points of view. Normally "cults" requires comparison between existing orthodox. According to wikipedia, scientists resolve this problem by referring to cults as "New Religious Movement" (NRM). The term cult is not well-defined or has multiple conflicting definition depending on who you ask. So if you take the definition of Christian Orthodox or other Orthodox religion then you can quote them. Some Christian ministers use NLP in their services and other apply it in Christian counselling -- these people do not consider NLP techniques to be cult-like. Some strict orthodox organisations may consider using sensory-based language, hypnotic language or other NLP techniques to be cult-like, I don't know -- if this is the case, cite your sources. An NLP modeler may be able to find many language patterns in sermons and christian counselling and maybe even the bible. All these views should be covered. Some proponents of hypnosis describe miracles and such in terms of hypnotic phenomena. You need to be careful when accusing an organisation of having cult characteristics because it depends on who you ask. So, we need to be able to balance the "Cult characteristics" section with a neutral description of all parties concerned. This will require some negotiation. --Comaze 05:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, it is much simpler than you make out. The fact is, you have spent months trying to mess up or delete the criticisms. And you have done so in the most surreptitous ways possible. You are going to have a very hard time trying to persuade people you are doing something beneficial to the article. It is just not happening. The criticisms section is for the criticisms. According to NPOV a criticism can be placed and cited, and that is how it is. You are changing cited statements to suit your own agenda. If you want to balance the cult characteristics that the critics say exist, then do so in the above NLP section (if there is any factual info available). Otherwise, leave the article alone. Bookmain 05:55, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Bookmain (AliceDeGrey/HeadleyDown/DaveRight), Well if you do not want me to edit the criticism section, you better start editing it to present all views fairly. An example of this group's bias can be found here and here (Bookmain/AliceDeGrey/HeadleyDown/DaveRight) is shown to support the views of a Christian opinion (watchman foundation) that states that "NLP is a cult" or "New Age" while not supporting a balancing statement that from a different Christian ministry that advocates the use of NLP techniques in counselling and sermons. Let's stick this to the issues. --Comaze 06:31, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Tidy Up

I have created a new criticism subsection titles 'Atheoretical Pretence' and I renamed the 'Overview' section 'NLP and Theory'. I removed the critical remark to the criticism section. Any feedback appreciated. flavius 06:17, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello Flavius Vanillus and all. I am mostly happy to tidy up (I think its time now most of the waring is over). I think the Atheoretical Pretence section is fine and above board as long as it remains in the criticisms section (it is a criticism after all). Keep up the clarity! Camridge 06:25, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that the waring is over. Today, I made a couple of simple POV clarifications and was shot down, and then reverted 4 times by the one group of editors. I will respect any cleanups that take place, but the article needs to be cleaned up for verification, and NPOV before any major clean-up work takes place. The --Comaze 06:31, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, it looks like you are the only warmonger left right now. AliceDeGrey 06:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

That is completely unfair and below the belt. I explain why I thought your reversions were unfair and you (HeadleyDown, AliceDeGrey, and group) replied with a mix of personal remarks directed at me, reversions and comments that failed to address direct questions I raised addressing the issues of bias (specifically in representing both views held by Christians about use of NLP in sermons and christian counselling). Some consider it to be new age, or cult-like, some consider it to simply language patterns that can be used to enhance communications. I provided the references. Let me remind you again, NPOV means that all views should be represented, even if they contradict your POV or other POVs. My personal POV is that personal beliefs such as religion should not even enter this discussion, but it is there, so we have to address it in a neutral manner. --Comaze

I only know of a few Christian pastors (Baptist) that say they use NLP in the process of pastoral care or sermonizing and all are associated with Bobby Bodenhamer. Most Baptists regard NLP as akin to witchcraft (that is why Bodenhamer and Hall have penned papers arguing that NLP is not the work of the devil). The mainline churches (Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant and Anglican) regard NLP as New Age and hence unchristian and nonbiblical. I'll see if I can find some references. If a minority of pastors use NLP then that doesn't offset or negate the wide condemnation of NLP by the Christian Church. By all means mention the religious application in the applications section but keep it out of the criticisms. The muliplicity of views can't be expressed in every paragraph. The balance will be achieved over the totality of the article not by tacking on, "But", "However", etc to every critical statement. Although the term "cult" is pejorative it is used and well-defined by cult experts such as Lifton. I have a few papers from the Cultic Studies Journal and (as the name would indicate) the word "cult" is defined and used liberally in the papers. flavius 08:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

This does support my argument that NLP can be use by cults and form cult thought reform. I did a quick search on that journal and found a ethics document that requires exit cousellors obtain written permission from clients before using neuro-linguistic programming or hypnosis for use in thought reform [5]. I wonder how they define NLP or hypnosis? --Comaze 02:30, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, yes the new section looks very clarifying and educational as wikipedia should be. It will need some direct association with actual criticisms made by critics. There are many starting with Singer, and I remember a few articles on the web stating the same kinds of things. I will have a good dig around for brief added critical support. ATB AliceDeGrey 06:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

In relation to the list of references. We need some way to distinguish between journal articles, website references, books written by original developers, books written by outsiders. A simple alphabetical listing makes this very difficult to discern. --Comaze 07:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello Comaze. In these kind of circumstances it is better to keep alphabetical. There have been a lot of arguments and accusations over whether something is a book or an article or both. Seperating into sections leaves the article open to biased headings, and even more needless battles and it makes it very hard to decide which section to add to and to search. I understand you would wish to see more opportunities for bias and disturbance, so I can see why you would suggest such an arrangement. Perhaps I should just ignore you for the sake of keeping the peace. Camridge 07:21, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Comaze. No I think it should be alphabetical. Locating a reference in a multitude of lists is difficult. Also, references are conventionally presented in alphabetic order in one block. flavius 08:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, Flavius, The issue regarding academic/non-academic sources is based on wikipedia policy. The references listed are in alphabetical order is fine. However, there needs to be notes or another way for the reader to discern the reputation of sources. --Comaze 22:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the subsections titled 'Goals' and 'View on Cognitive Understanding of Problems' (?). These were terribly written, redundant and lacked cohesion. I can add something about the problem insight. The NLP position can be stated in a sentence. I also trimmed down the presuppositions section. I'm still not happy with it. I also removed the reference some obscure British NLP trainers views on the presuppositions. I think Dilts and DeLozier's views on presuppositions are authoritative since they contributed to their formulation. I added a quote to the Extraordinary Claims section regarding the topic of genius. In light of this quote I think the defensive statement that in effect says "oh no, no one said we can make you an Einstein' should be re,oved. I don't like the list of NLP techniques. It's awful. It should be replaced by a succinct description of a few representative techniques. The Milton/Meta model section is also terrible. I'll rewrite it. At the risk of sounding provincial I get the impression that much of the prose that is awful was authored by those for which English is not a first language -- it reads like 'broken English'. Comaze and FT2 is English your first language? flavius 12:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Most posts I have to use Babelfish :) Jokes aside, I think the entire document needs to be copyedited with special attention to prose. With so many different editors, it would be nice to keep the same style throughout the entire document. --Comaze 22:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

mmmm!

Comaze. I am just wondering what it would look like if you went through and "copyedited" the article. Somehow I think it would need some further adjustments:) I'm not psychic, I just have a powerful intuition about these matters! HeadleyDown 11:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks HeadleyDown, I keep strictly in line with Wikipedia:How_to_copy-edit. The other option is to put a cleanup tag on the page to get another editor in to do it for us. --Comaze 13:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Winkin

Hello all. I decided to get more active and I added some lit by Yves Winkin, a world class anthropologist from the Sorbonne in France. He seems to be a highly quotable source. Camridge 03:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, how did you establish the reputation of Winkin? Does his reputation hold enough weight to be quoted 9 times without any attempt to balance it with a rebuttal from the proponents view? In this respect I think that your recent edits are biased. --Comaze 03:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, the article is currently pro and critic oriented and that has solved a great many problems associated with multiple deletions/attacks and so on. It has also encouraged a greater variety of editors to contribute now that things have settled down. NLP is extremely self-promotional and thus it is quite acceptable to have world view criticisms. You seem desperate to keep the views to a minimum. You are suggesting edits that go against the multiple view perspective of wikipedia policy. Are you anti NPOV or just anti French? Camridge 05:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC) PS. Winkin actually attended NLP workshops in California under Bandler in order to write this peer reviewed scholarly journal article. Camridge 05:15, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge (with HansAntel) , I am stating directly that your recent edits [6] are biased and violate NPOV. These are staw man without providing proper context or rebuttal from NLP proponents. Can you please modify your contributions to take into account these objections. --Comaze 06:19, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, I have just been looking through your history over the past few months. You clearly have an agenda to promote NLP and delete all criticisms. This is entirely biased, and I understand you will probably always lobby for removal of fact. Considering you will never change this could make the situation hard to handle. Instead of treating you as a normal unbiased member I feel the best thing to do is not waste any more of my time, so I will simply ignore you. My edits are perfectly within wikipedia recommendations and I don't need you to tell me how to behave. Camridge 07:47, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I object to these edits by Camridge and HansAntel because they contain bias, overgeneralisation, give too much weight to one author, and fail to take into account other points of view (eg. reply or rebuttal). I request that we ask for comment from neutral third party, mediator or arbitration committee. --Comaze 08:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, mediators are generally very neutral. You won't like their judgment at all. You never did before.HeadleyDown 11:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

HeadleyDown, You were very quick to dismiss. It would in your best interest to attempt to resolve any content disputes with a neutral third party. --Comaze 22:27, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi All, there appears to be an arbitration page open for this article with space for requests and decisions. Are all involved editors aware of this?

Hello Faxx. Yes I think most people are aware. But nobody really is that bothered. Its mostly for proNLPers to list unreasonable complaints about edits that happened during confilicts. Most neutral editors are just getting on with editing and looking for brevity. The problems have mostly been solved already by dividing the sections more clearly. Regards HeadleyDown 03:48, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Looking at those diffs, I would say that some of these statements do generalize far too hastily. If I think NLP is Z and I find person X with career Y who agrees that NLP is Z, I cannot just say "Y's believe that NLP is Z(citation of Y)" .Voice of All^T|@|ESP 23:49, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello VoiceOfAll. The author is well published, but some of the statements are misplaced according to agreement. I can find better places for them in addition to NPOVing. HeadleyDown 03:44, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello VoiceOfAll and Comaze. I reviewed some of the edits that Comaze is troubled by, namely, Cults and Winkin. The cults section I have to admit is tenuous. The only notable author cited is Singer. 'Vexen Crabtree' is a 'Punk/Goth' guy with a self-indulgent web site. I'm sure Vexen is a nice chap and he has his fashion worked out (judging by the images on his website) but I don't think his opinion counts for much. Also, the Watchman Expositor site is written from a an ultra orthodox Protestant/Baptist view. Any doctrine that isn't based on a literalist Biblical interpretation is deemed suspect by this group, including the two seminal branches of Christianity (Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism). I have no problem with the cults section being trimmed down to only include Singers view until further (credible) views are sourced on this topic. I also read Camridge's edit based on Winkin and they look good, i.e. well sourced, but perhaps truncated. Expanding Winkin's position such that reasons are provided would eliminate the appearance of 'bad faith'. My concern though is that Comaze would then object to the coverage given to Winkin's view. This -- I think -- would indicate bad faith on Comaze's part. flavius 06:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes Flavius, more coverage of Winkin will be useful. I have had a good read of his article and it does offer more insight. The cult section needs some brief clarification also. From my studies I have - Sharpley, Heap, Eisner, Langone, Singer, Winkin, Novopashin, Barrett, Christopher, Helish, Howell, and some others describing NLP as a cult. Perhaps just a simple list as I have just stated will suffice (eg "Sharpley, Heap, Eisner, Langone, Singer, Winkin, Novopashin, Barrett, Christopher, Helish, Howell, describe NLP as a cult) but supplying the appropriate years to the citation. Comaze has already proved he has bad faith - its called NLP:) Regards HeadleyDown 07:15, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

"Sharpley, Heap, Eisner, Langone, Singer, Winkin, Novopashin, Barrett, Christopher, Helish, Howell, describe NLP as a cult" with years added would be fine. flavius 01:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that the scientific studies of NLP, critics, psycholinguists', neurologists', and psyschologists' opinions of NLP are enough for criticism. Lets not try to include every type of scientist, especially when such a claim does not have enough citations to be well supported.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 09:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello VoiceOfAll. My last edit was to create a more concise version of what was there, and I believe we can make simpler statements that include even more experts, but resulting in far more concise passages in general whilst keeping explanations clear. Certainly there are other authors to corroborate Winkin's statements and I will provide them soon. I believe the same can be achieved with the above non-critical NLP section, though perhaps I am not the one to do that (without extensive conflicts and reversions etc). Regards HeadleyDown 11:00, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Perls and Dianetics

I don't think this sentence accurately reflects Fritz Perls' involvement with Dianetics:

By the late 1960s, self-help organizations such as EST, Dianetics, and Scientology had become financially successful, receiving attention and promotion from human potential thinkers such as Fritz Perls who during this period, promoted and operated a Dianetics clinic (Clarkson and Mackewn 1993).

I can't find any other source indicating that Perls "promoted and operated a Dianetics clinic" at all, let alone in the late 1960s, and I question whether that statement is a fair representation of Clarkson and Mackewn.

I do not have a copy of that book, but neither the full-text search feature provided by Google (http://print.google.com/print?hl=en&id=dzB8lFoyH8sC) nor the one provided by Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0803984537) yield any results when searching on "Dianetics".

Perls did investigate Dianetics from 1949-50. He wrote the introduction to Winter's 1951 "A Doctor's Report on Dianetics". However, by that time, he had already come to conclusions that would seem to preclude him taking Dianetics up again in the last years of his life.

By October, 1950, I had come to the conclusion that I could not agree with all the tenets of dianetics as set forth by the Foundation. I could not, as previously mentioned, support Hubbard's claims regarding the state of "clear." I no longer felt, as I once had, that any intelligent person could (and presumably should) practice dianetics.

(from http://www.xenu.net/archive/fifties/e510000.htm -- note: not a neutral site)

Considering how much critical material on Dianetics and Scientology is published on the Internet, I would expect to find many more references affirming Perls' alleged re-involvement in his later years.

In any case, I would like to suggest that this sentence, in the absence of more solid evidence, be struck from the article or otherwise edited to avoid misrepresenting Perls' investigations into Dianetics. For that matter, I fail to see how that sentence or the following portion of the paragraph that it appears in sheds any light on the nature of NLP.

I would be glad to work on this edit myself, but I'm not sure how -- aside from posting this section to "talk". I am a wikipedia newbie! Thanks. Shunpiker 19:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi. Dianetics was actually still in vogue during the 60s (or at least, some therapists (especially gestalt) still considered it a reasonable technique) and the gestalt theory of memory is pretty much identical to that of dianetics. Perls actually ran a dianetics clinic during the 50s and 60s, but he also introduced wierd new age zen ideas of awareness that he had picked up on his travels. Perl's dianetics background sheds a great deal of light on NLP. Firstly, they are both extremely similar in principle and form. They both use command hypnotics, Korzybsky's map territory, engrams, trauma change, belief in unlimited potential, use of metaphor, the use of ritual, they are both psuedoscientific and are often classified together according to many scientists, and the financial success of dianetics/scientology was a powerful motivator for all the more recent LGAT cults of the 70s 80s and 90s such as NLP, Tony Robbins, Landmark Forum, EST and so on. Basically most people who saw the beginning and end of the dianetics trend in psychotherapy tends to see NLP in the same light. A lot of the books and papers criticising NLP or classifying it as a fringe therapy also talks of dianetics in the same sense (pseudoscientific, scientifically unsupported). However, there is some evidence that places dianetics as less ineffective than NLP on the whole (stronger placebo effects with client/auditor). Anyway, the fact that Perls actively promoted and practiced dianetics is reason enough to place the fact in the article background. Regards HeadleyDown 06:06, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Headley, I understand that you believe that Perls promoted Dianetics and ran a Dianetics clinic, but what I'm looking for is documentation of those allegations.

As mentioned above, the footnote in the article (Clarkson and Mackewn, 1993) appears to be spurious. Furthermore there is documentation that Perls investigated Dianetics in 1949-1950, but publicly concluded that no "intelligent person" could or should practice it -- a rather peculiar form of advocacy, don't you think?

Since Perls was one of the "models" for NLP, he belongs in the article, but painting him as a Dianetics zealot doesn't fit with the facts, at least as I can discern or document them. If you can back up your assertions about Perls and Dianetics, please do so. I would definitely want to know if they were true, and the article would benefit from the substantiation. If those allegations can't be substantiated, however, I sustain that they do not belong.

Thanks, Shunpiker 08:37, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Shunpiker. Don't take Perl's comments individually. He was quite a contrary chap. Look at "Perls" (I can't remember the author), and most other of his biographies. His support of dianetics is documented there. I will provide more sources in time. He wasn't a zealot as such. He included a lot of other wierd new agey kind of ideas in his methods. Anyway, here is just one link I found just from a simple goodle search "Perls, a staunch supporter of dianetics" http://www.xenu.net/archive/fischer/Fischer_1.html. Regards HeadleyDown 16:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Headley,

Upon further investigation it appears to me that the quote I found from the "A Doctor's Report" -- "I no longer felt, as I once had, that any intelligent person could (and presumably should) practice dianetics." -- comes from J.A. Winter, not from Perls. My mistake. The source I was quoting includes the header "Introduction", but on re-inspection appears to skip over the actual body of the introduction. In any case that quote is attributed to Winter in the Dianetics article.

The Fischer paper calls Perls "a staunch adherent of dianetics", but provides no substantiation for that statement. To the contrary, it proceeds to quote Perls (from his introduction to Winter's book) as criticizing L. Ron Hubbard for the unscientific character of his work -- presumably Dianetics.

Please do find whatever evidence you can to support the link between Perls and Dianetics, but until that evidence is located, should Wikipedia be in the business of repeating the rather serious allegation that Perls advocated and practiced Dianetics? If Wikipedia is going to assert that, shouldn't it be recorded on the pages for Fritz Perls and Dianetics? Currently there is no mention of Dianetics on the Perls page and no mention of Perls on the Dianetics page. It strikes me odd that the NLP article is the only one to make note of this rather significant association.

Yours, Shunpiker 21:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Shunpiker, HD was the editor who originally posted this, later EBlack added this. JPLogan added the "and promotion" in this post. It seems that JPLogan was the first to post it here --Comaze 03:08, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Yo Shunpiker. Serious allegation? Sounds like you really don't like Dianetics! Not biased at all are you? You should read what Tom Cruize says about Scientology. Anyway, from what I read, Perls was against Hubbard going for the religion idea in order to promote his ideas. Perls wanted to do clinical studies on his dianetics practice (with Hubbards funding). It didn't happen. Don't take wikipedia as a source. If this article was only run by the likes of Comaze and the other fanatics, there would be no criticism section at all (or it would end up promoting indirectly). Basically, go and do some library searches. The info is everywhere. DaveRight 02:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

DaveRight, I have warned you 5 times to avoid personal remarks. It is really not useful to call someone a fanatic. Do you want to get a neutral 3rd opinion on this? --Comaze 03:14, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

It is useful, Comaze. Everybody should know you spent months deleting criticisms several times a day. Fanatic, zealot, censor, these are all words that describe your behaviour perfectly. The small edits you make in between are just a smokescreen. Your agenda is to promote NLP by removing criticisms and by whitewashing NLP by removing any new age or cultlike fact that places NLP as a fringe wierdo charlatan therapy. So warn me again, and I will go into more detail about your cultlike smear campaigns, and your sneaky edits. DaveRight 03:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi again Shunpiker. Here are some more links. They are direct and indirect. The gestalt psychology ones (a fringe therapy) show that it was influenced by dianetics anyway. Even without Perl's strong implication, gestalt therapy itself is influenced by dianetics. Remember that most of the psychology background of Bandler and co is gestalt.

http://www.sonoma.edu/users/d/daniels/Gestaltsummary.html

http://www.larabell.org/ladder.html

http://co-cornucopia.org.uk/coco/articles/cocother/cocoth2.html

http://www.pacificnet.net/~cmoore/ghill/esalen2.htm

http://www.bautz.de/bbkl/h/hubbard_l_r.shtml

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:vtZaYuV7WEcJ:co-cornucopia.org.uk/coco/download/cocothea.pdf+fritz+perls+dianetics&hl=zh-TW

Whatever, dianetics is everywhere in NLP. Not just in theory, but in practice. I'm not suggesting that you join or become an auditor:) but have a delve into auditing and you will see the embryo of NLP.

Here you can see Perls making the same kind of grandiose claims as NLPbrains http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1165

Whatever, Perls was a dianetics fan, and Bandler and Grinder wanted the same fame, adulation, and finances when they developed NLP - thats how EST developed also. History repeats! DaveRight 03:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, once again, Comaze reverts to his normal campaign agenda. Even after requests from mediator to provide such evidence, Comaze removes it. I resored the engram reference as it was indeed notable and from a certified NLPer. AliceDeGrey 03:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

AliceDeGrey, Anyone can post to Media13 so it is not verifiable. Even if it was published from a reputable publisher, who says that author is notable? If the source you post was allowed, anyone could write their own article submit it to media13 and use it as a reference. We need to stick to notable, verifiable sources. You know this already! --Comaze 03:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, Media13 actually has a vetting policy quite similar to that of a published paper journal. I suggest you are most definitely the most biased and zealous fanatic on this article. If anyone want's to join your ranks Comaze, they will definitely be labeled in the same way. Camridge 03:57, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Do we have any notable/verifiable sources as per Shunpiker's request? --Comaze 04:20, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi everybody,

Thanks to DaveRight for gathering links about Perls and Dianetics and Comaze for clarifying the history of the Perls-Dianetics discussion in this article.

I agree with DaveRight that there is evidence that Perls was influenced by Dianetics. At least one of the links ("Fritz Perls and Gestalt Therapy") is Perls-friendly and says the same.

But influence is relative, and can't be read as uncritical support, nor can it be taken out of the context of other influences. Freud, Jung and modern dance are also listed among Perls' influences.

We're left still without proof that Perls can accurately be described as a "Dianetics proponent", or that he at any time operated a Dianetics clinic.

I don't want to get drawn into a debate of the merits or demerits or Dianetics, or of Perls for that matter. But yes, to my sensibility (we all have our biases) accusing Perls of promoting Dianetics and running a Dianetics clinic is serious. It would affect my opinion of him. Because of that, I want to verify whether or not those allegations are true.

I appreciate the efforts of editors on either side of the NLP debate to verify those claims.

Thanks, Shunpiker 04:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Shunpiker. I think framing some parts of the article may be in order. Certainly, gestalt therapy itself is not maintream at all. Freud and Jung include so much pseudoscience it is sometimes difficult to work out what has support and what doesn't, but the fact remains, NLP has used as many dubious sources as possible to form its rather conveniently saleable sets of notions. Modern dance just shows how fringe Perls was back in the 60s. From what I read about him, he seems to have spent the majority of his time at Esalen institute cavorting around naked, and smoking pot. I think anyone who has read a biography about Perls would come to the conclusion that he was surrounded by crackpots the whole time, and he himself did so many odd things in his life that made him somehow charismatic. The NLP lot could use any part of his life to claim all kinds of renegade magic. That is primarily what NLP is about: Inflated claims, but no delivery (according to scientific testing). They built NLP on a set of myths, and supported it with more popular myths as time went by, simply to create salespitch. Camridge 04:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I've added a few dispute tags to mark statments questioned by Shunpiker until we can verify the claims from reputable sources. The tags were removed :( --Comaze 07:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, you seem to be very ready with those dubious tags. I noticed your use of tags to advocate the removal of multiple cited sources and even the removal of alleged sockpuppets. I will remove them on principle. According to your definition of dubious, NLP itself should have a dubious tag. Camridge 05:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I still don't understand why you (Camridge) removed the dubious tags. We have not resolved the matter yet. Also, what do you mean by "even the removal of alleged sockpuppets"? --Comaze 07:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Comaze, I understand the points you are trying to make, and have clarified the article using the term - new age, and rituals. This makes the article far more consistent and in line with the facts that NLP is sci unsupported, pseudoscientific, connected with the occult, connected with other ritualistic therapies, and helps to explain the placebo aspects of NLP according to science. I will make the adjustments throughout to help clarify this point. This will also help triangulate facts better with Perls-Dianetics pseudoscience associations. Bookmain 06:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Bookmain, Shunpiker's asked a direct questions. Do we have any evidence that Perls was a proponent of Dianetics, or if he ran a clinic. A direct quote from Perls with page numbers from a reputable publisher would be proof positive. --Comaze 07:30, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze. You really are working to your promotional agenda in the most transparent way. The solution does not require the pasting of "dubious" on everything you do not like the look of. I can easily rephrase the line in order to solve the problem. Of course you do not want that. You simply wish to mark the fact as dubious, or remove it from the article altogether. Your agenda is blatantly obvious. I will ADD further facts to clarify due to your unreasonable insistence. Camridge 08:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Camridge. I still find it very difficult to agree with the recent diffs. Although, I find it alot easier when something is attributed to a source even when I am still not convinced that we have agreement on the accuracy, credibility (see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources) or even objectivity. I am not convinced we have taken into account the range of authoritative sources on the subject (eg. Perls himself, or authoritative books on Gestalt). Also assertions of fact should be objectively connected to authoritative sources. --Comaze 09:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, there are libraries in the world full of the information you claim to seek (but refuse to accept). Again you prove yourself to be here primarily as a censor of criticism. Your track record in that area is clear. Camridge 09:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, I'll accept it as long as it is on-topic, accurate, objective, authoritative and verifiable. And scholarly :) I'll check back in a few days. --Comaze 10:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Oi Comaze. If you are looking for on topic, accurate, objective, authoritative etc, then why the hell do you keep deleting the new age label? It is all of those things, and most of all, it is a scholarly label. I think maybe you are just pretending to be neutral:) Or could I possibly be wrong? DaveRight 03:40, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

DaveRight/Camridge - I think your recent edits are biased. Would you like to get a neutral third opinion to settle this? I will need your agreement that whatever the neutral third party says will be binding on all parties. --Comaze 04:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Comaze and DaveRight, and others. I haven't had a chance to be here or catch up yet. I notice NLP is described in the first sentence as a set of "New Age Rituals". The term new age is very broad and in the broadest sense NLP might be seen to fall under the umbrella (along with many other things), certainly as a method for anyone wishing to explore (model) something spiritual - though NLP is not spiritual in and of itself and can be applied to many other fields. Also, NLP has certainly modeled rituals, and behaviours which include rituals. However the description "New Age rituals" is vague and misleading. Could you (Dave or anyone else supporting this claim) tell me in what manner NLP is New Age, and what makes you say NLP is a set of rituals, rather than NLP has modeled some rituals? Thanks GregA 22:45, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I know of at least one credible source that mentions Perls as an advocate of Dianetics: 'A Piece of Blue Sky: Scientlogy, Dianetics and L. Ron Hubbard Exposed' by Jon Atack. According to Atack, "Fritz Perls, founder of Gestalt therapy, defended Hubbard's early work (though insisting that it needed scientific validation), and briefly received Dianetic counselling." (Ch. 2, [7]) flavius 03:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Can someone retrieve the following, it's a prmary source:

PERLS, F. "Introduction." In Winter, J.A. A doctor’s report on dianetics: Theory and therapy.New York: Julian Press,1951. flavius 03:51, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, In "A Piece of Blue Sky", the only citation to Perls or Gestalt therapy in the bibliography is "PERLS, Fritz et al., Gestalt Therapy, Pelican, London, 1973." To my knowledge Perls does not defend Dianetics in Perls (1973). I also searched "Gestalt Therapy: History, Theory, and Practice"[8] and did not find any matches for dianetics. Can someone retrieve a quote from Perl's introduction (1951). --Comaze 04:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, look at the first page of chapter 2 of "A Piece of Blue Sky". Also, when Winter wrote "A Doctor's Report..." he was at that stage supportive of Dianetics and Perls' introduction I read described as supportive. User:Flavius 05:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze. Perl's fascination, promotion, and practice of dianetics is documented in both of these books. Author Clarkson, Petruska, 1947-

Title Fritz Perls / Petruska Clarkson, Jennifer Mackewn. Publisher London : Sage, 1993- and - Naranjo, Claudio. Gestalt therapy : the attitude & practice of an atheoretical experientialism / Claudio Naranjo. Publisher Carmarthen : Crown House Pub., 2000.Camridge 05:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi folks,

Thanks to Camridge (that was you, right?) for editing out the most egregious of the unsubstantiated statements about Perls -- that he operated a Dianetics clinic in the late 60s.

As was already mentioned in this discussion, the Clarkson and Mackewn book cannot be a source for any connection between Perls and Dianetics -- since it doesn't even contain the word "Dianetics". Again, both Google and Amazon offer the ability to search the complete text:

• Google (http://print.google.com/print?hl=en&id=dzB8lFoyH8sC)
• Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0803984537)

I am removing the footnote. If you can find any reason to reinstate it besides the fact that it once was part of this article, please speak up.

I am moving the other links so that they do not give the false impression of substantiating the proposition that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics.

The link to "Hubbard's Ladder" is the source for the following sentence about Hubbard's methodology providing "raw material" for Perls. It belongs with that sentence.

The link to "Co-counselling as Therapy" says that Perls was "influenced by the ideas and practice of Dianetics". This doesn't establish that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics, but it does indicate that it had his "attention". I'll move the link there.

The link in German probably doesn't belong unless someone is going to quote the relevant passage, translate it, and explain its relevance. As far as I can tell, it says that Perls was audited at some point by Hubbard. Since that assertion doesn't appear in the article, it should probably be removed. For now, I'll group it under "attention" with the previous link.

As for the other material which has been cited in "talk":

Flavius quotes, "A Piece of Blue Sky" where the author says that Perls "defended Hubbard's early work (though insisting that it needed scientific validation), and briefly received Dianetics counseling". This indicates that Perls had interest in Dianetics' beginnings. It doesn't establish a lasting influence, an interest in Dianetics as it evolved or that he practiced Dianetics. It doesn't show that he promoted Dianetics.

However -- it's the most clear citation to come to light yet that shows Perls taking a positive (although not uncritical) and public action in regards to Hubbard's work. Thanks, Flavius. How about instead of paraphrasing this or other unspecified sources, simply citing it directly?

The web-available excerpt from "A Doctor's Report...", on the other hand, is more critical than supportive of Dianetics. Consider Winter's conclusion: "I no longer felt, as I once had, that any intelligent person could (and presumably should) practice dianetics." Or the part quoted by Fischer where Perls accuses Hubbard of mixing "science and fiction" and of "unsubstatiated claims". If parts of that book which do not appear on the web imply something else, by all means cite them with the same precision with which Flavius quoted "A Piece of Blue Sky". The part that we have is, after all, taken from an anti-Scientology site.

I would love to see a citation from Naranjo's book illustrating Perls' relationship to Dianetics.

Thanks for your continuing efforts. Shunpiker 09:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Just out of interest, here are some revealing insights about gestalt therapy (rather than theory) and dianetics http://www2.hawaii.edu/~lady/archive/roots-1.html

http://home1.gte.net/wsbainbridge/dl/cultgen.htm

One of Hubbard's closest associates in 1950, Dr. J. A. Winter, acted as a bridge between Scientology and the Gestalt cult (Winter 1951, 1962; Perls et al. 1951). Many psychological exercises in both Gestalt Therapy and Scientology train the patient's attention and awareness in abnormal ways. Both use techniques projecting the patient's consciousness into inanimate objects. Both use Freud's technique of getting patients to recall past traumatic experiences, but both demand extreme emotional involvement and made the patient imagine that the experience is happening now in present time. Through Dr. J. A. Winter and other channels, Scientology and Gestalt borrowed from each other.

http://www.edmaupin.com/somatic/somatic_origins.htm Esalen institute came into play quite a lot with Perl's association with prior pseudosciences. Notice its just up the hill from B and G's uni. This was a big meeting point for Satir, Erickson, BnG and others. Richard Feinman was appalled at the lack of scientific thought in these thinkers when he went to visit. This is more or less the hub of the modern new age.

Considering Perls adhered to dianetics in theory and practice, and gestalt therapy itself has dianetics as a major influence, I see no reason to state Perls as an advocate and promoter within the article, with or without citations. Regards HeadleyDown 10:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi again. I think this gives an interesting perspective (food for thought). http://www.religion.qc.ca/Fiches/fiche028.htm

It shows the connections between Perl's concepts and dianetics, EST (landmark forum) and other such pseudoscientific organizations/events.  I think it puts it in to some perspective.  Regards HeadleyDown 10:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi all, It's been almost a week since I posted the original request for verifiable citations demonstrating that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics. That evidence has not been provided.

Headley, I can see that you believe that Dianetics was a "major" influence on Gestalt Therapy, and that Perls practiced and promoted Dianetics. The problem is that neither you nor anyone else has been able to back up those statements with sources.

There are sources that says Dianetics was an influence on Gestalt Therapy, but they list many other influences and do not give Dianetics pre-eminence. To the contrary, the word "Dianetics "doesn't even appear in at least one book on Perls' life and work (Clarkson and Mackewn), nor do the editors of the entries on Fritz Perls and Gestalt Therapy mention it.

There is one source that says that Perls "defended Hubbard's early work (though insisting that it needed scientific validation)". That is as close as anyone has come to sourcing the assertion that Perls "promoted" Dianetics. If you think it's relevant, you could use that quote. But it's not equivalent to say that he promoted Dianetics, or was a "proponent".

No one has been able to come up with any source for the assertion that Perls practiced Dianetics. Someone -- I think it was Camridge, thanks -- at least edited down the statement from its original form, where it said that Perls operated a Dianetics clinic in the late 60s.

I'm going to give this another day. After that, and in the absence of any emerging evidence, I'm going to feel free to remove the statements that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics.

Yours, Shunpiker 19:57, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Energy

Hi all. I added criticism of energy as promoted in some NLP texts. Physics does not recognize energy as moving or existing in the positive/negative states that are commonly stated in NLP texts. This is a common new age myth and can be further clarified in the article. It may also be related to other pseudosciences such as energy therapies, EMDR, and other such pseudos. I also noticed there is another common misconception in NLP that considers energy as something that exists out of the body in a kind of aura-chi-directable entity. As far as it has been measured, no energy exists past the skin of the body. I think this also needs a mention somewhere. Camridge 08:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Epistemology and NLP

I have expanded the subsection 'Atheoretical Pretence'. In view of Grinder's grandiose amateur philosophising and the NLP mantra about theory that extends right back to the early literature I have brought some results from epistemology and philosophy of science to bear on the matter. Bandler and Grinder have been using Fictionlism (a type of Instrumentalism, which is in turn a type of Antirealism) as an evasive tactic since NLPs inception. B&G make explicit appeals to Fictionalism in their liberal quotations from Vaihinger and in there numerous paraphrasings of Fictionalist doctrine. Hence, the philosophical critiques of Fictionalism (and Instrumentalism) are entirely relevant. For those of you with some understanding of epistemology or an interest in the subject this will hopefully be informative. flavius 14:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, Your recent contributions need to take into account other point of views: Neutrality. You also seem to make assertions of fact, rather than attributing the assertion to a source (objectivity). --Comaze 22:27, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, I disagree. My recent addition does take into account other points of view: Vaihinger is cited. Vaihinger is not only cited by B&G but his name is most often associated with Fictionalism. Vaihinger is considered canonical on the matter of Fictionalism since he's one of the founders of the doctrine. The citations I have provided (eg. Bunge) do present the Fictionalist case. I have looked through all of the early NLP literature and some of the more recent literature and can find no answer to the damning rebuttals that Fictionalism has received. Further, Fictionalism has been consigned to garbage bin of bad ideas. Fictionalism survives only amongst a relatively small group of Economists that subscribe to Milton Friedman's Fictionalist conception of economic research methodology. Within economics Friedman's essay "The Methodology of Positive Economics" has received a savaging. What would comprise a "neutral" presentation of dead epistemological theory that hasn't recovered from the criticisms it has received? Also, I don't make assertions, all of my premises are well-sourced and my conclusion is a re-iteration of what is established -- in substance -- in the 'Pseudocience' section of the artcle. B&G ignored or misunderstood the basic tenets of Fictionalism. Fictionalist's have a strong commitment to empirical testing and/or explanatory power. Friedman -- for example -- proposes the criterion of value of any theory that is obtained from 'As If'ing to be predictive power, i.e. can the theory predict the behavior of one or more variables in relation to another. This is a demanding test of a theoretical formulation. Some Fictionalists justify a theory on the basis of explanatory power or problem resolution capacity where problem resolution is determined using empirical testing in the form of the scientific method. B&G assume all of the speculative freedoms of Fictionalism without also accpeting the responisbilities. B&G generally do not attempt to formulate predictive models, when they do formulate predictive models (eg. eye accessing cues) they do not subject them to rigorous empirical testing, and they are not concerned with explanation. B&G ostensibly claim 'utility' as the sole arbiter of theoretical value yet they are averse to testing their prescriptions to determine whether they are actually meeting their self-imposed criterion. B&G are properly not even Fictionalists since their theorising remains dissociated from reality, the criterion of utility that they initially appeal to is never honoured in that utility ("that it works") is not established using the best means known of hypothesis testing, namely the scientific method. I have actually been kind to B&G, a much stronger -- and neutral -- conclusion is possible. If you contend that I am being biased and unobjective in this instance then you will need to demonstrate that I have misprepresented Fictionalism and B&Gs appeal to it. flavius 00:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, I commenced my involvement with this article with the presumption of good faith by all parties concerned. You are quick to admonish editors for personally oriented behavior yet your behavior reeks of bad faith, your behaviour is intemperate and it can only be addressed at the personal level. You appear to be engaged in what I can only describe as the Wikipedia version of vexatious litigation. You reflexively cry "POV", "biased", "not objective" even after we have arrived at a consensus view that there would be a separate criticisms section. This is out of order and redirects editorial labour away from improving artcile quality to placating your petulant demeanour. I have more than adequately conveyed the NLP position regarding epistemological theory both in the 'Foundational Assumptions' section and in the 'Atheoretical Pretence' subsection. I've quoted directly in most cases. The NLP position on this matter can't be expanded any further because their is nothing further to add. B&G and Dilts take it for granted that Fictionalism serves as a sound basis for method. Grinder -- in Whispering -- does the same thing yet in a covert manner. Grinder and Bostic-St Clair actually smuggle Fictionalism in to their epistemological ruminations, making no explicit mention of it yet relying on it. Grinder and Bostic-St Clair's folly does not end there: in Whispering they demonstrate an ignorance of inferential statistics and its relationship to the scientific method and collapse statistical methods (inferential and descriptive) into descriptive statistics and proceeed to pretend to demonstrate the irrelevance of statistical hypothesis testing by way of challenging the relevance of the descritive statistical concept of the mean (which is actually only one type of measure of central tendency rather than definitive of it, which suggests an ignorance even of elementary descriptive statistics). Given the poverty of such arguments you can't cry foul when no one in the NLP community has bolstered them and they can be refuted simply by juxtaposing factual evidence or fundamental results from established disciplines. Is there a sound and cogent argument for NLPs rejection of probabilistic hypothesis testing that I have overlooked? Is there a sound and cogent argument for Fictionalism (actually bastardised Fictionalism) that answers the criticisms that have discredited Fictionalism within established disciplines from the NLP granfalloon that I have overlooked? No, there are no such arguments, so what then shall I present that will render my recent additions NPOV and objective. Your predicament is that you have imbibed a doctrine that is entirely without foundation, internally inconsistent and speculative -- which is entirely consistent with post-modernist thought and actually considered a virtue amongst post-modernists -- yet you somehow expect the presentation of (non-existant) emprirical evidence and philosophical justification that will somehow balance a doctrine that is essentially antagonistic to empirical testing and justification. Your position is untenable. You are in an epistemological limbo. The only way out that I can see for you -- that will preserve your commitment to NLP and allow you to remain ecelectic and speculative -- is to adopt a strong antirealist position not unlike Robert Anton Wilson, a person familiar to Bandler and many NLPers. All NLP roads eventually lead to antirealism/constructivism/mysticism: Bandler and Robert Anton Wilson, Grinder and Castaneda, Tad James and Huna, Kenrick Cleveland and Santeria,Ross Jeffries and Magick etc. This is not coincidental. flavius 01:36, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, You present a very strong argument, I need some time to check my sources, review and respond point by point. Firstly, can you comment on Grinder's argument that NLP modeling uses discrete mathematics, "discrete analysis of individual systems" and that this type of mathematics excludes the use of probability. I think that this may be the argument that you have overlooked. --Comaze 03:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

No, I havevn't overlooked that, I didn't mention it because it is a plain matter that discrete systems are analysed probabilistically in several fields. Can you give me a reference where Grinder presents that argument so that I can respond to it directly? If Grinder were correct then the branch of electronics engineering/computer systems engineering of computer system performance analysis would not exist. Computer systems are exemplars of discrete systems and yes discrete and finite math is used to analyse, model, verify and describe some of their behaviour but continuous and probabilistic methods are used to analyse, model, verify and describe other aspects of their behavior. Virtual memory system performance and CPU cache performance -- for example -- is determined using probabilistic methods. The probability distribution called the Poisson Distribution lets us answer such questions as 'What is the likelihood that web server X will receive 100 concurrent requests at time T?'. Probabilistic methods are used to determine the probability of contention within a computer system for a resource. Expected time to failure of components and systems is derived from probabilitic methods. Queuing Theory is used analyse computer network performance, this method is probabilistic and continuous. Queuing Theory is also used to predict computer system performance. I can give more examples if you want/need them. NLP modeling doesn't use discrete maths, it merely expresses banalities as formalisms (predicate logic, automata theory, syntax diagrams, set theory) borrowed from discrete maths to present the aura of depth and sophistication. flavius 06:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Flavius, I just skimmed Whispering in the Wind and found a few relevant paragraphs relevant to Grinder argument against using statistical probability for certain classes of contexts and possible usefulness in other contexts (eg. for predicting eye movement patterns in groups eg. marketing), see p.78,80,96. I'll look up the rest later tonight. --Comaze 23:37, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, with respect, I don't think anyone here has overlooked that point. The linguistic and clinical hypnosis view both state that the use of mathematical proof is completely inappropriate for explaining NLP. It does' however emphasize the pseudoscientific basis of VAKOG within NLP. That can be emphasized in the article with brief explanation. So, mathematical proofs can be mentioned within the pseudoscience section, and as further criticism for the pseudoscientific nature of NLP. In fact, this may even allow for further connection with other pseudoscientific subjects such as energy therapy. Camridge 05:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

When you say VAKOG are you referring to the 4-tuple presented Structure of Magic (1975)? --Comaze 05:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

No Comaze, I am talking more specifically about the inappropriatness of presenting NLP as a mathematically supported subject such as physics. The whole background of NLP is scientifically unsupported, and it has also has proven ineffectiveness (NLP has been falsified quite thoroughly through empirical testing). Hypnotists and others have criticised NLP for trying to look more convincing by talking about 4tuples and other such pseudoscientific sidetracks. Hubbard used to do the same kind of thing with his Dianetics subject. Anything that looks or sounds scientific is easy game for such pretenders. But it does nothing for wikipedia articles and requires clear thinking and good criticism to clarify the fog that it creates. Camridge 06:59, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

PS. I might add that this kind of mathematical "proof" does also put NLP on a par with astrology and numerology, plus other elements of magic such as in Rosicrucian pseudoscience that also makes use of geometrical and mathematical associations of early astronomy. Camridge 05:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Removing Comaze's whitewash

Comaze. You have been working against NPOV with a breathtaking impertinence:o

• Parapragmatics were mentioned by Singer 1999 in her book Crazy Therapies, and they do exist in the literature.
• NLP does use rituals according to many sources and technically speaking in psychology terms, they are rituals.
• NLP has spoken about the magical results of supposted magicians from the very beginning.
• The NLP phobia treatment is called a cure in the majority of cases and critics also use that term. Your censorship there is pure whitewash.
• Your own POV is that there is disagreement about energy. Why do you want to keep writing this in the article? You are as bad as FT2 and his inconsistency fallacy nonsense.
• If skeptical debunkers is not POV I don't know what is.
• YOU removed a whole paragraph of direct quotes from NLP literature about energy because YOU DON"T LIKE IT. It is completely representitive.
• You removed the Sala information about scientists also.
• You are seriously in breach of NPOV guidelines and the only thing to do is to revert your comments and reinforce the information with further corroborating evidence. This does not suit your agenda to promote NLP at all, but you have left me with no option whatsoever. I cannot believe you can still be allowed to edit here. Your main purpose is to lobby for the removal of fact, and when that does not work you just snip it off anyway. I suggest you start editing somewhere else. I am so utterly furious with your beastly behaviour I am starting to look like a sunburned and boiled lobster. I am developing a large high bloodpressure vein across my forehead - its big and pulsating and its getting bigger. I will revert all your antiNPOV edits. DaveRight 04:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

As a wikipedian I do not care about NLP. I just want it represented accurately. My aim is to keep strictly in line with Wikipedia:Forum_for_Encyclopedic_Standards so we can eventually have this page peer reviewed by fellow wikipedians. --Comaze 04:25, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Now Comaze, you are not being completely honest there are you! I mean, there is something about those months of umpteen criticism deletes a day and even your recent whitewash, that may give the impression you don't really give a toss about wikipeida policy. Or am I just imagining NLP article history and your stated commitment to promoting an exclusively Bandler Grinder viewpoint throughout the article? That commitment is still in evidence today. DaveRight 04:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I might be an expert in the subject, having trained in all major schools of NLP, but that does not exclude me from thinking critically and stepping into the role of a wikipedian where I can be neutral. If you feel it is going to get personal, then you may contact me via my talk page or email. --Comaze 06:36, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, I must remind you that your so called qualifications will only establish your purpose to that of antiNPOV. The evidence is clear from the majority of your edits that you are unwilling to balance and only want to remove clarifying facts. Here is a solution: Admit that NLP is postmodern antiscience and stop trying to narrow the views to that of the most obscurantist. Camridge 06:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Chill out!

Fellas, ladies, and children of all ages, please calm down! I don't want to lock this page, but if I'm given no choice, I will, without hesistation. I emplore you all to be CIVIL, and refrain from using personal attacks (that means all of you...). In all honesty, some editors are acting childish, and if need be, an RfC can and will be filed, so please just relax and stay cool. Might a wikibreak help anyone? I promise to keep close watch over this thing. -Mysekurity^{(have you seen this?)} 04:37, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Myusekurity. No worries, the only person asking for a locked page is Comaze and thats because nobody allows him to cut facts any more. I noticed that people are being a lot more civil since the page is divided more clearly, and any silliness seems to be more humour than anything else. People have made efforts to cut the size of the page, and when people such as Comaze stop pushing to delete important facts, then they can be reduced (the full quotes will be less necessary, and extra supporting evidence will be unnecessary also). Anyway, the page seems to be in better order with better explanations, and certainly my goal is to get the article to below 50kb fairly soon. Cheers Camridge 04:51, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I think an RfC could be helpful in soliciting the input of people with more diverse interests -- not least of all, those who are disinterested in this topic. Until there is a quorum of editors contributing to the article who are not identified with the either the pro- or anti-NLP positions, I wouldn't expect improvement in the quality of the article or the civility of the discussion around it. Thanks, Shunpiker 05:17, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Shunpiker, have you ever gone to a bookstore in search of a non-fiction book on topic X, deliberately looking for book that states on the back-cover blurb "John Smith has no expertise in X or special interest he just wrote this book to pass some idle hours he had last summer."? If you found such a book and you wanted to know about X why would you read it? Who would publish such a book? In all of the encyclopedias I have (general and specialist) each of the constituent articles on a topic is authored by one or more topic experts. Why would anyone want to read an article written by a dilettante? An encyplopedia that is comprised of the superficial knowledge of dilettanti is useless for reference purposes. Your editorial philosophy is harmful to the credibility of Wikipedia. The damning reviews of Wikipedia in 'The Register' were at least partly made with reference to the thoughtless egalitarianism that you are advocating. Anyone that is disinterested in a topic shouldn't be writing about it or even reviewing articles about that topic. The only people that should alter the content of the article (as opposed to the form) should be either "pro" or "anti" -- they should have a position. Having an opinion is not indicative of knowledge but knowledge leads to the assuming of an opinion. Having an opinion per se is not a vice and not everyone can make a worthwhile (content) contribution to any article. flavius 09:01, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Flavius, I don't believe I am advocating "thoughtless egalitarianism". I'm just sick of seeing this article controlled by extremists. As long as the article is written by people who want to promote or impugn NLP more than they want to write an encyclopedia, the article will only serve the interests of whichever POV choir predominates in the editorial tug-of-war.

The principle of Wikipedia:No Original Research, at least as I understand it, implies that you don't have to be a content expert to contribute to an article -- just a competent researcher and writer. I quote: "experts do not occupy a privileged position within Wikipedia". That editorial philosophy is controversial, but it is deliberate and longstanding. If "The Register" or anyone else finds it harmful, they are free to either try to influence it, or to find other projects with other philosophies. Yours, Shunpiker 19:17, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

A good test for a neutral editor would be that someone would not be able idenitify from your writing if you are writing for or against a topic. So really, every edit should contain views from all sides. I also want to implement Wikipedia:Footnotes in this article so that other editors can easily check facts. --Comaze 05:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Shunpiker. Regarding solutions, I believe all editors here will be seen as either pro or anti in a very short time after joining. NLP is a very muddy subject that can be clarified using scientific thought/evidence, and good clear writing. There will always be the problem of NLPers wanting to promote, because the NLP cult is set up that way: The effort is towards propaganda and whitewash rather than balance or acceptance, and NLP is confusingly claiming to be science, art, technology, psychology and anything else that sells. The pressure from proNLPers towards deletion rather than balance is still in evidence and I don't think that will go away ever. The simplest solution would be for the cult of NLP to accept that it is anti-science and anti-realistic post modernism, and then the criticisms would be properly framed. However, the denial is clear, and the proNLPers pressure to make NLP sound like respectable and widely accepted psychology remains. Comaze is still playing the same game as ever, and just trying to wind people up on their own userpages, making baseless objections to mediators/arbs whilst deleting as much as he can here in the process. Efforts to keep a sense of humour are a must. I don't see any problem with getting outside help, though I think things are actually improving as they are on the whole. I would say simple encouragement towards balance and concise writing will be more appropriate. All the solutions so far have been from editors labeled antiNLP - compromise, organization, provision of facts and extra corroborating facts. I am sure you will get plenty of cooperation from the so-called anti-NLPers as always. Cheers Camridge 06:03, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh change the record Headley you ----------- Krishsingh1066 14:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh my KrishSing1066, this just isn't done. Your comments are a direct provocation and clearly designed to get the article locked. Clearly a fanatical way of doing things and I doubt if it will work to any successful extent. I'll do the honours and boot your petty offence off this discussion page. DaveRight 03:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

No worries, Dave. Its pretty unclear who the attack was addressed to. Camridge 03:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes. This definitely needs to go to RfC. I know nothing of NLP, but I do know there seems to be a great deal of animosity between users. I feel, whatever your beliefs, labling something a "pseudo-science" is not NPOV, and I will remove that. What would be acceptable, is to state that some consider it to be a pseduo-science, and list quotes and such that support that, as well as others that refute the pseudo-science claim, thus making it NPOV. I honestly think this needs to go to RfC, and if this warring/incivility continues, I will not hesitate to protect the page and block users. Those here are doubly reminded that Sockpuppetry and Meatpuppetry are grounds for immediate blocking, and forbidden from voting and discussion. Any sock or meatpuppet caught will be blocked on sight. -Mysekurity^{(have you seen this?)} 05:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Mysekurity, I cannot see any instance of NLP being labeled by editors as pseudoscience. All statements to this effect are attributed to scientists and other authors. There seems to have been a great deal of effort directed to this activity. Although there is also a lot of pressure from proNLPers to remove such thoroughly cited facts. I don't see how RfC can help in this matter. What did you have in mind? Camridge 06:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Mysekurity, your commentary is perplexing. Firstly, at this stage the animosity is between Comaze and everyone else, your characterization of the conflict as general and widespread is inaccurate. This recent conflict between KrishSing1066 and HeadleyDown looks contrived. I'm going out on a limb here but I suspect that HeadleyDown and KrishSingh1066 are one and the same person -- the stylistic similarities of prose are too many to be coincidental. Secondly, what you "feel" about the term pseudo-science is entirely irrelevant. Your sujective disposition towards a term is no more relevant or authoritative than anyone elses. The article contains no naked assertions that NLP is a pseudoscience, NLPs pseudoscientific status is communicated with reference to numerous authorities. Also there are no refutations of the arguments and evidence of the experts that NLP is a pseudoscience -- none exists. Unless you are advocating the inclusion of mere assertion to the effect that NLP is not a pseudoscience then you will have to accept the coverage of this matter as balanced and complete. Furthermore, how would you justify the inclusion of mere assertion? flavius 08:38, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello again Flavius. How can you say no refutation exists? Some books comment that NLP is more an art than a science which is a refutation (not of pseudoscience, but of science). Some trainers comment that NLP is an epistemology (rather than science) which is a refutation. The methodology of NLP (particularly modeling) clearly does not include the scientific method, but it is a systematic study... so the definition of science comes in here too. There has been much discussion on what NLP is and is not - the key thing here is that there are some scientists who"

1. perceive NLP to be claiming to be a science, but
2. they say it's not following the principles of science - hence a pseudoscience.

The related problem is that although some NLPers make extravagent claims, the field as a whole is inconsistent due to no central control. There are pro-science NLPers who don't make extravagent claims, but they are expected to defend against claims other NLPers make. If the above sounds confusing I think it's largely because it is a bit of a muddle... expressing it clearly is a challenge worth doing in the article GregA 23:32, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi GregA. An assertion that NLP is not a pseudoscience does not constitute a refutation. Similarly, the assertion that "NLP is more an art than a science" is not a refutation of anything, it is an assertion, a declaration or decree. The statement that "NLP is an epistemology (rather than a science)" is meaningless and even if it were meaningful it would amount to no more than another assertion. There is no refutation of the criticisms levelled against NLP. I re-read Ch. 3 of Whispering and Grinder's attempt to answer criticisms regarding method and verification are insincere and still-born. Either Grinder doesn't understand the criticisms or chooses not to. A refutation of Grinder's position on method and verification would require a lengthy essay to cover because it is replete with so many fallacies, assertions, suppressed premises, hidden metaphysical baggage, misunderstandings and sophistry. There are no genuine pro-science NLPers -- that is an entirely mythical beast. Grinder, Dilts and Hall have scientific pretensions and they ignore or misunderstand fundamental issues of method that define scientific inquiry. The "muddle" that you describe is the thoroughly post-modern flavor of NLP. NLP has nothing to do with science, inquiry, verification, consistency, evidence and reality and it never will. Post-modernists don't refute arguments or present evidence to the contrary. Instead they declare that reality, truth, and objectivity are fictions and that all "discourses" are equal, that subjectivity is all we have and need. This is the very ethos of NLP, it runs through all of the early NLP texts and even in Whispering. There is no NLP refutation of critique because the very legitimacy of the activity of critique is disputed. NLPers don't think there is any case to answer. Fictionalism stripped of the need for empirical test -- or in Grinder's case redefined such that subjectivity is made equivalent to empirical test -- is the epistemological basis of NLP. This is the license for untrammeled speculation, overvaluation of subjective experience, disregard of intellectual heritage and cult-like insularity. flavius 04:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Certainly the conflict is all Comaze, Flavius. He's been groundlessly badgering me on my own page for some time. I agree with the term pseudoscience or pseudoscientific being perfectly neutral. If some people do not like it then perhaps they should read more modern anthropology. Its also used very neutrally there also. I doubt if Krish is Headley though. The name KrishSingh popped up on the complaints section of the last arbitration. The proNLPers were claiming that there was some kind of conspiracy coming from a skeptics newsgroup and KrishSing1066 was the main character bringing it up on that newsgroup. I suspect that a proNLPer has just taken the name for themselves to mess the editors around. I can't see why a skeptic would be offensive to Headley. Headley is a skeptic by and large. And Headley has never asked for an article lock. In fact it looks like an attack from a prior editor here called Lee. But that's just me going out on a limb also:) It is all quite irelevant to the fact that the article has been improving and clarifying issues for the past week or so. ATB Bookmain 10:01, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Bookmain. Check this: http://krishsingh1066.tripod.com/NLP.htm. Slabs of this document were/are to be found in the current article and were contributed by HeadleyDown. Either one is copying from the other or its the same person. The writing style of HeadleyDown in the discussion section is the same as that of Krish Singh in the above essay. My money is on they being the same person. I'm not suggesting that the person that made the remark against HeadleyDown is the real Krish Singh. I'm suggesting that because they are the same person it is unlikely that Headley/Krish would insult himself. flavius 11:09, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Flavius. Actually I think Headley and Comaze have very similar writing styles, but I don't think they are the same person:) Cheers DaveRight 02:18, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Welcome, the real Krish. Impersonation is a serious offense so I think that Krishsing1066 wikiaccount should be deleted fairly soon. I reckon it was Lee. He is always using that particular attack. How come Headley gets all the really juicy insults? Actually one of the reasons I stick around is because the subject is interesting in social psychology terms, but the cult side seems to be in very real evidence on the discussion pages. Flavius mentioned vexatious litigation (indicating Comaze) and in fact this is exactly what the other cults do. Scientology uses exactly the same kind of strategies in order to warn people off, and get their own way. In fact, Comaze's strategies seem to go a bit deeper, perhaps more into the realms of sociopathic tendency. To be fair, a lot of the other NLP promoters did also. And there are some things about NLP that add some special tweaks to it. For example, the claim that questions have not been answered; this is a common NLP unwritten strategy that comes as a consequence of the unfounded belief in the metamodel. Its supposed to be an attention directer, but it just sets up excuses. Throughout, the proNLPers have asked (actually demanded or else delete) questions and extra source material to back up criticisms. The whole discussion archives are full of the stuff. I cannot remember any time when a neutral editor demanded the same from a proNLPer. But the result is always the same- the claim that the question has not been asked, or the claim that extra sources are not enough. Denial of evidence from NLP literature is another strategy. The mediator asked whether certain things exist in the NLP literature - proNLPers obviously will provide no evidence to show that the books are full of new age concepts, occult practices, and empirically falsified rituals. The books are full of diagrams with goggle eyes, but not one proNLPer provided evidence of recent use of PRS (it is in every book). But they do deny it exists, and they do demand many multiple citations from neutral editors in order to have it on the article. I digress, Comaze (after his reversionfest a month or two ago and his written committment to promote a Bandler Grinder view, and his insistence that the article be full of primary sources only(he claimed Bandler and Grinder only were primary)). Deep breath -- Comaze decides to get formal and begs the mediators to turn up, and has a go on his own version of an article (total promotion). Of course mediators are moderate, so Comaze (and FT2 and the other cult members) hates their decisions. The next thing is to become officious (or at least sound like it). His strategy is to get all scientology and post sockpuppet labels on any non promotional editor's page, and to keep on accusing them of making attacks at him. All the time he makes demanding questions of other editors and these are answered. Comaze denies that questions have been answered and goes on pushing for deletion of facts and so on. He keeps pushing for lines of framing that are completely unreasonable to any other neutral editor. The accusations of attack continue, and he does his best to make it look like neutral editors are all rotten. However, the only actual personal attacks come from proNLPers towards Headley. I think you are probably starting to see a certain pattern here. Anyway, I find it really interesting, though it probably doesn't do much for the article itself. One thing I find about wikipedia itself is that when you set out to be neutral, you can still look like you are posting propaganda. The deeper you go into NLP the more nasties you find. So it is inevitable that you are going to look anti-NLP next to the NLP zealots. But its the zealots that end up showing that they are acting in bad faith, recruiting vandals from newsgroups, acting officously but doing it to simply slur or to provoke attack in order to claim the higher ground, making straight personal attacks, denying commonly accepted facts(dishonesty) and so on. The solution here may be to accept that proNLPers will do this and to simply ignore them most of the time. They take up far too much time to answer their questions (that will be denied anyway) so just keep going with the article instead. They do seem to have dwindled in number due to this (and perhaps because some of them seem to be beginning to understand that you can't successfully promote NLP on wikipedia). Cheers DaveRight 02:16, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Flavius. Actually I am Krish (Krishsingh1066@yahoo.com) not HeadleyDown. The material on my site was given to me by another skeptic and I thought it so good I posted it up. Judging by the advances here I have some changes to make:) Someone else is impersonating me, and it looks like someone anti-HeadleyDown. I've been watching this article for a while though I don't have an account. I think its fairly clear that NLP proponents are trying their damnedest to remove criticism. How do you remain so tolerant? I'd be breaking monitors by now! Sincerely 203.198.23.99 01:35, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Krish. My apologies to you and HeadleyDown. I am not familiar with the political terrain of Wikipedia. My conjecture was based largely on the commonality of text posted on your website and that posted here by HeadleyDown. On the face of it it looked suspicious. I am somewhat befuddled by the many designations of users as impersonators/sockpuppets of HeadleyDown. flavius 03:58, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about it Flavius. It is confusing, but everyone here is really tolerant, except Comaze who will accuse people of attacking him when in fact they are simply pointing out his uncooperative activities. He has changed from posting sockpuppet labels to posting completely unhelpful accusations on people's pages in order to slow things down or gain sympathy from misguided mediators. Pretty sad really. Camridge 04:35, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, Anyone can create a tripod site so it is not reliable evidence. We know for sure that whoever posted the message from the fake "krishsingh1066" was trying to distract this discussion. Let's ignore the personal attacks, trolling techniques, etc. and focus on improving the notes and citations on the artcle. --Comaze 23:27, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, point taken. Bookmain is designated a suspected puppet of HeadleyDown. Is the designation made on the basis of mere allegation or has a link been established on the basis of source IP address? flavius 03:58, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Flavius. Yes Comaze posted the label on my page and I am waiting for him to remove it. I think he has posted at least 9 such labels on other nonpromoter's pages. He has always accused without foundation and he continues to do it as you probably have noticed on your own page. He wants you to look like the miscreant, when all you have done is provide clear explanations - lots of work, and all he does is waste people's time. The best thing to do is ignore him. He tries to act all official but in fact he has committed months of flagrant antiNPOV activities. Most of his focus is on nuisance now though. Just try to shrug it off. Bookmain 05:00, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

A request has been made to the arbitration committee to check IP address of that username. Other evidence will be presented before the committee meets to workshop this matter. See [9] --Comaze 04:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

That doesn't answer the question Comaze. You placed the sockpuppet labels as if you are some kind of official. They were placed there purely on the basis of your own desire to see critics banned from wikipedia or to gain some kind of control. Camridge 04:40, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Citations

While researching for my reply to flavius, I added a whole bunch of citations to the page. While I was doing this I noticed that there is a lack of citations from NLP in the criticism section. It seems that there is a general lack of connection of the criticism to specific aspect of NLP. The "Atheoretic" section in criticism is an excellent counter-example to this. This is the sort of quality I'd like to see throughout the entire document. Wherever possible I have used the earliest references to each fact. Please feel free to check them and provide earlier or more reputable/verifiable/authoratative references when you can find them. --Comaze 11:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Jolly good show Comaze. Its nice to see you have suddenly stopped deleting facts after all. I wonder how long you can keep this up! DaveRight 03:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I gather that if we improve the references, citations and notes (verifiability) then we can get neutral wikipedian editors to check the facts and weigh in on consensus. Let's all work together to find the highest quality sources available. --Comaze 04:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, if that means you doing your thing of trying to chuck out references on the basis that they do not promote NLP or that they contain evidence that places NLP as a fringe new age pseudopsychological fad, then I think you are on the wrong path. Clearly you seem to think there is something very wrong with the references that have been provided at your own insistance. Currently, the article needs to clarify NLP far more for what it is, and to do it more briefly. I don't see any unverifiable references in the article as it stands. Camridge 06:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I made no such suggestion. Let's keep it balanced. The arbitration committee must be meeting soon, I'm sure their recommendations will assist the article. --Comaze 23:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze! You have made many many many many many such suggestions. Just take a look through the archives. You generally delete or object to the words "fringe, new age, pseudo, ritual etc" on sight even though they are used as classifications within psychology manuals, especially in reference to NLP and other such unvalidated pseudosciences. DaveRight 02:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

DaveRight, If you feel this is getting personal plesae send me a private message or use my talk page. Just a reminder, you were the one who added "quasi-spiritual new age rituals" to the first sentence of NLP; I reverted it. Hopefully we can sort this out through RfC or current arbitration committee. --Comaze 02:54, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Listen Comaze, there is no way you are going to get away without someone pointing out your uncooperative behaviour. You have demanded so much, but you continue to deny the facts. These are not personal attacks. Truly the only personal attacks are the ones made by the promoters you work with towards nonpromotional editors, and I will repeat what the mediator VoiceOfAll has stated about you; "YOUR BEHAVIOUR IS TEDIOUS AND UNPRODUCTIVE". Camridge 03:29, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, RELEVANCY CHALLENGE: How is what you just said getting us to our agreed objectives as wikipedians? --Comaze 03:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, look, judging by your history, I believe you are never going to cooperate. So whenever you ask tedious or uncooperative questions I will simply point out what you are doing for the sake of other editors who may be under the false impression that you are trying to do something constructive. Other people are carefully pointing out what you are trying to do, and that is a constructive thing to do, because it will lead to a better understanding of your nuisance. These pointers are not attacks, but they show exactly where the hazards are on this discussion article in order to facilitate constant forward movement. ----- I noticed you have just posted something irelevant on the article about someone in the 70s saying NLP is worthy. That is completely out of date and irrelevant to the opening, so I will remove it. Camridge 04:04, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

"YOUR BEHAVIOUR IS TEDIOUS AND UNPRODUCTIVE". Camridge, how did you know I made that statement? While I did say that, that is like three or four archives ago, your name was not even around then.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 04:06, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi VoiceOFAll. I've been lurking for ages, even before HeadleyDown turned up. I started writing a report on NLP for my Master degree, and got swept up with the discussion. Why? Do you want to post a meatpuppet label on my personal page together with Comaze's many unreasonable objections? Camridge 04:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

It is just odd...among other paralles, such as writing style/opinions. If this is an alternate account, then I simply encourage you to stick to the main account; I only use sockpuppet labels for trolls or vandals.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 04:50, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Meatpuppets

There has been great speculation as to whether or not two or three users are alike or the same. While writing styles are very similar, I do not believe we are dealing with sockpuppets, but only meatpuppets (See their respective pages). What we mostly have here are users pushing their POV and getting friends involved, so nothing illegal, just not very nice. I honestly think this could use an RfC, as this page just seems to be serving as a smack-talking battlegroun. -Mysekurity^{(have you seen this?)} 02:26, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Mysekurity, there is evidence of this on some NLP newsgroups. For example, NLP-mind (egroups) and Mindlist (egroups) both have had friends working together and have tried to recruit more from their own groups - Greg Alexander (GregA) and Andy Bradbury an NLP author (who also vandalized Headley's page) have clearly been working together. Notice also the only people to vote together are all NLP fanatics (certified and currently practicing with clear vested financial interests in promotion) and they all voted in order to treat the non promotional editors as a single entity or to have them banned. The amount of blanket deletions these proNLPers have made is scary. This was always the danger of having a criticisms section - someone is going to come along and delete the whole thing. But thankfully it is quite easy to resore. Cheers DaveRight 02:35, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I concur. The NLPpromoters are all self admittedly registered or trained NLPers. They all have an agenda to delete facts about NLP. Not just criticisms, but facts about NLP's occult/new aga/pop psychology/pseudoscience characteristics. Considering they are all part of the same small circle of pseudoscientists, I would say they most definitely fit the bill for meatpuppetry. Furthermore, they all ganged up to vote for mediation (though they were completely unco-operative during mediation) and they all ganged up for arbitration (in order to remove non-promoters). If wikipedia is to be consistent in this matter, they should be very wary in the face of such persistent pressure for restriction and censorship from such cults. Bookmain 05:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

DaveRight, do you agree that if we got an RfC that you'd agree to adhere to the decision? Let's resolve these content disputes without making it personal. --Comaze 02:42, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, the only reason you want to bring in people from the outside is because they havn't been fortunate enough to witness the farce of your months of antagonistic activities, slurs, unreasonable demands, blanket deletes after mediation, and so on. Presently, the article is coming along fine. Your only role here seems to be to retard editing activities and generally anoy editors who are good enough to explain things carefully to you, though your only response is to ignore or deny. Your smokescreens and subterfuges to direct attention away from your unreasonable behaviour are simply not working. You want RfC to treat you as a new entity, you want to lock the page to slow things down, you post many objections on other editors pages simply to be objectionable. You don't fool anyone. [...] You will be ignored. DaveRight 03:48, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I definitely see nothing that constitutes any sort of trolling here...not yet at least. Perhaps both sides are rallying/have a few copy accounts, but it is hard to see this as a possible issue on only one side. As Mysekurity said, we must avoid personal attack, this is true even if you think you are right.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 03:54, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes perhaps trolling is inappropriate. But Comaze is certainly living upto his agenda to unreasonably accuse, deny and retard progress. Camridge 04:06, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

New Age Rituals, Quasi-Spiritual

Hello all. NLP uses rituals rather than techniques. Evidence:

Ritual A stylised sequence of activity designed to anchor and elicit a particular state or series of states in the participants, with reference to the leader's beliefs and values. Eg the use of coloured pens, mind mapping and slow music to elicit optimal learning states is a ritual expression of the pattern of learning in all three main representational systems.

here is an excerpt from NLP the new technology of achievement about Robert Dilts

Robert draws them out. He helps them divide their disappointments from their dreams and rekindle what first brought them together. He then assists them in literally separating themselves from old co-dependent patterns and gaining a new sense of wholeness in and for themselves. Finally, he invites them to participate in a healing ritual in which they bring the fullness

and you stay there for a long time, perhaps for hours. And that you have your own little rituals (environmental and internal anchors) that can put you back into that state at the snap of a finger. Many 204 

There was a good deal of literature posted in the archives on the new age nature of NLP. I cannot be bothered to dig it up just to have Comaze deny it, but it basically said that all the NLP principles are related to the new age concepts, and NLP is marketed under the new age label. NLP IS NEW AGE!

NLP is a quasi-spiritual method as explained by a body of medical practitioners : http://www.canoe.ca/AltmedDictionary/glossary.html

It is completely NPOV acceptable to call NLP new age, ritualistic, and quasi-spiritual. In addition to this, it is totally correct to call it pseudo-scientific with or without citations. The only reason to have citations is to stop overzealous deleters from deleting it. Camridge 04:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Camridge's take on NLPs proper classification. NLP isn't a science and it isn't based on science. NLP isn't an art in that it neither produces aesthetic works (eg. sculpture) nor is it a skill based on a mixture of knowledge (assumptions and falsities don't comprise knowledge) and experience (eg. cookery). It isn't a craft (eg. carpentry) because it doesn't involve manual dexterity. It can't be conceived of as a skill because it doesn't work (the evidence tells us this). If someone claimed that he could fly by flapping his arms we wouldn't deem that person as posessing the skill to fly. It can't be classified as a technology because by definition technology is applied science, it is the application of science to the resolution of practical problems. Since NLP is not based on science it can't be a technology. Is it an epistemology? This question implies an unconventional understanding of the word epistemology. Epistemology is a branch of philosophy that is concerned with the scope, limits, nature and basis of human knowledge. Saying "an epistemology" implies that there are a multitude of epistemologies. There are a multitude of epistemological theories (eg. Realism, Constructivism, Instrumentalism, Idealism, Representationalism) but there is only one epistemology, i.e. the branch of philosophy. So NLP can't be "an epistemology" in the same sense that something can't be "an archeology" (when we say "an archeology of Egypt" we are not referring to some special species of Egyptian archeology we are referring to archeological knowledge pertaining to Egypt). Is there an epistemological theory embedded within NLP? Yes, certainly (see my earlier discussion on this) but this is unremarkable. There is an epistemological theory embedded even in everyday experience (eg. the inductive logic we employ when we say "lemons are sour"). Saying "NLP is an epistemology" is a linguistic trick that enables NLPers to smuggle in specific epistemological theory whilst maintaining the pretence that they "don't do theory" and simultaneously avoiding the need for justification of the details of those specific epistemological theories. Within specific sciences and branches of technology the word "model" has a well-defined meaning even though usage of the term may vary between various disciplines (eg. a structural engineers notion of a model is different from a physicists). Outside of these technical contexts the term model is ambiguous. What exctly does it mean to say that "NLP is a model"? NLP is not predictive. NLP is not concerned with explanation. NLP is not a simulation. NLP does not engage in hypothesis testing (such that it yields limited gerneralisations en route to producing laws). All of the standard understandings of "model" have been exhausted. Hence NLP can't be described as a model. By a process of elimination the only domain of human experience that we have left is religiosity. Tye (1994) argues that NLP produces a "psycho shaman effect" (p.4) which is described as a combination of "cognitive dissonance, placebo effect, and therapist charisma" (p.5). Thus the NLP practitioner/therapist is like a shaman. The aspects of religiosity within NLP extend further than this. It is essentially faith based, tenets are validated in the same way as many religions, namely, with reference solely to subjective experience. NLP promotes the notion of unlimited personal possibility and potential: all that separates me from Albert Einstein (a figure often mentioned but usually misunderstood in NLP literature and seminars) is that we have different "strategies" i.e. sequences of sensory based represnetations. NLP also promotes the idea that all behavior is learnt (this notion is incidentally inconsistent with Chomskyan linguistics). Taken together these two premises form a conception of "human nature" -- this too is a facet of religiosity. The ethical system of the quasi-religion is supplied by the notion of ecology. The techniques of NLP -- having being demonstrated to have no real effect -- comprise ritual and ceremony. Deification is distributed between the "all powerfull unconscious" (the source of all power) and the upper echelons of the training industry pyramid (who as shamans know the secrets of the unconscious). The demons of NLP are suggestions, linguistic ambiguities and embedded commands that threaten to enter our unconscious mind and manifest some harmful reality (see [[10]]). NLP supplies the incantations and rituals necessary to repel or exorcise these demons. NLP defines sinful behavior: Meta-Model violations or failure to honour the presuppositions attracts censure. The most dramatic ritual is of course the Fast Phobia Cure, this is NLPs equivalent of Christian charismatic healing or perhaps an exorcism. flavius 17:32, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I think you've overlooked a major assumption in NLP that is based on Transformational grammar: Language is rule-governed (Syntactic Structures Chomsky 1957), Grinder & Bandler (1975) extend this to assert "all human behavior is rule-governed"(p.1 1975a) (Grinder & Bandler 1975a pp.1-37,108; Grinder & Bostic-St Clair 2002 p.71; Dilts & Deloizer 2000 p.1470). According to Grinder (2002) Historically the deep structure / surface structure theory is still significant in the development of NLP (see also [11]) --Comaze 22:26, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

No I haven't overlooked that assumption -- I make no mention of it because it's irrelevant. How does asserting that "all behavior is rule-governed" alter the fact that NLP is theoretically deficient, lacking in empirical support and ineffective (save placebo and nonspecific factors)? Scientology assumes that human behavior is influenced by adhesive "body thetans" that Xenu brought to Earth in a space craft. Does this assumption render it any less quasi-religious? Quite the contrary, a blanket assertion such as "all human behavior is rule-governed" is characteristic of pseudoscientific, religious, and quasi-religious discourse. Specifically regarding Chomsky's TG, NLP is discordant even on this matter. NLP is predicated on the idea that all behavior is learnt, a product of acquired representational codings. This idea is antithetical to Chomskyan linguistics which is innatist [[12]]. Furthermore, Chomsky has long since abandoned the TG he proposed in Syntactic Structures. TG is actually two intellectual epochs removed from his current theorising: TG was abandoned in favor of Universal Grammar (UG), UG was abandoned for his so-called "Minimalist Program" [[13]]. flavius 02:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Mathison & Tossey (2003) note that the "there seems to be a relationship between NLP and Vygotsky's learning theory[14]. I think Mathison was the first PhD in Neuro-linguistic programming. To say that "all behaviour is learnt" is misleading and out of context -- some behaviours are governed by genetics. If it is useful in the learning process, an NLP modeler could adopt a belief that "all behaviour is learnt". Flavius you misquoted B&G, it should read "all human behavior is rule-governed"(p.1 1975a). Basically, a complex human behaviour can be grossly reduced to a set of simple rules (hence the 4-tuple, 6-tuple, finite state automata, and the recent work with Discrete Dynamical Systems). More recently, Grinder & Malloy have modeled the NLP/Bateson epistemology in Boolean systems (Kauffman) and use E42 to test and refine it. Prof. Tom Malloy (with Grinder & Bostic) (Psych., University of Utah) has adopted this as part of an overarching framework [15]. --Comaze 23:44, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, Mathison and Tosey's brief paper are minor, speculative, non-empirical, and simply an overdefensive reply to someone elses criticisms (criticisms born out of NLP's ineffectiveness). Just another burdensome can of worms for you to open for the article. Your bias has been noted. JPLogan 03:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

New Issues

This page has evolved quite a bit. What things would people still like to see fixed?Voice of All^T|@|ESP 05:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks VoiceOfAll. I am quite happy to make clearer, more concise and more organized. Camridge 05:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I put that we...

1. connect the criticism to specific aspects of NLP (eg. move the criticism of NLP Applications to a subheadline under each application).
2. add {{fact}} to the assertions that would be enhanced with citations
3. adopt standard notation style of that used in NLP (and linguistics) to enhance current citations / references.
4. all agree to meet the Wikipedia:Forum for Encyclopedic Standards and work towards a Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check or work towards feature article nomination.

• --Comaze

Actually there could also be more coverage of new age/occult aspects of NLP. Those themes are present throughout NLP literature. So far all we have had is deletions and denials from promoters, despite their presence throughout literature and within the very presuppositions of NLP. It would clarify things immensely especially as NLP is moving more towards those aspects as mainstream therapy shuns it all the more. Camridge 07:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I've moved the criticism of NLP applications to the corresponding application. The next thing I'd like to do is create a section call Ethics or Ecology and move the "unethical use" to a subsection under that. PS. the change was marked as minor, but I don't know if it was minor. Please let me know if there are any objections to this. --Comaze 00:03, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

NLPers trying to sanitize NLP again

I noticed a couple of bits of sanitization of NLP again. Comaze and another proNLP editor stated that NLP was not used in the same way as Dianetics and that NLP is not used in the field. There is also the convenient changing of the title from engrams (even though engrams are all over the passage) to the memory trace. Lets just take a good look at NLP and start pasting more of the commonly new age concepts back in there without trying to whitewash. It may be objectionable to NLPers who deny that their subject is flakey but it is a fact after all. Camridge 08:51, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

In your recent edit you removed this statement which was already agreed upon, "Barrett (2003) says that NLP is not an organisation, but as a philosophy has some characteristics of a religion (p 431)". see diffs. I think needs to go back in. I'd appreciate it if you discussed controversial edits like this before committing them. Let's avoid any "edit wars". --Comaze 01:49, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Statement ignored. Brevity and relevance is priority. Camridge 03:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Would you like to ask for a neutral third opinion on this? --Comaze 06:49, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Nagging statement ignored. Camridge 03:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Some Anonymous Commentary

I've been involved in NLP since 1992, and have trained with both co-founders of the field. I've also interacted with a wide range of the biggest names in the field, and I found little in this entire article which bears any resemblance to what a dictionary definition of what NLP is. There is an entire encyclopedia of NLP written by Robert Dilts, who is perhaps the least controversial figure among the different sides within NLP. It's located here [16]. Whole sections of this article cover things I've never even heard discussed in connection to NLP including the cult activities, etc. As someone who's read 80% of the primary scientific research on NLP, the jury is still out, and the research is relatively thin. Only a few of the main topics have been given any experimental study, and even in the case of eye-accessing cues, which most of the research has been devoted to, some studies say it works, and some don't, and in most cases methodology is likely to be the cause of the results, not the theory. This article shouldn't be pro-Bander or pro-Grinder, or pro-NLP, or pro-the critics of NLP. It should simply be a factually accurate article which isn't organized for the purpose of bias, and this I'm afraid sadly is.

I moved your anonymous slab of text from the top of the page to the bottom where it belongs. It would be useful if you honoured Wikipedia convention by adding new subsections to the bottom and by signing your contribution using four consecutive tildes [~]. On to the content of your post. Firstly, if you had actually read the article and referred to the citations you'd see that Dilts and DeLoziers Encuclopedia is referenced extensively (especially by me). Secondly, there is no "dictionary definition" of what NLP is and if there were what would its relevance be? Are you suggesting that we know what "art" is and nothing more can be said about aesthetics because it is defined in a dictionary? Can I rebut a social constructivist by stating that there is a definition of "reality" in the dictionary? I don't follow what the connection is between your totally unpersuasive boasting (because most of the editors don't esteem Bandler, Grinder, Baffa, La Valle etc.) about being a long-standing and enmeshed member of the NLP granfalloon and what you would find in a hypotherical dictionary definition. I suspect that you are attempting to communicate that your experience of NLP is inconsistent with the content of the article. If so then you are attempting to persuade us not with evidence and argumentation but rather with your putative authority and anecdotage. How then would we reconcile your assertions with contrary assertions? Thirdly, what exactly is the signficance of what you personally have and haven't "heard discussed in connection to NLP". Are you proposing that we adopt your knowledge as the criterion for determining truth? All of the descriptions of NLP are accompanied by citations from primary NLP sources and NLP websites. Your criticism is vague and general. What aspect of NLP or expert opinion in the article is mischaracterised, misinterpreted or fabricated? Fourthly, your're not in a position to declare that "the jury is still out". Heap (1988), Sharpley (1984), Sharpley (1987), Lilienfeld (2003), Singer & Lalich (1999), Eisner (2000), Lilienfeld et al (2003), Helisch (2004), Williams (2000), Drenth (2003), Salerno (2005), Bertelsen (1987), Druckman and Swets (1988), Beyerstein (1997), Winkin’s (1990), Levelt (1995), Bordlein (2001), Sala et al (1999), Morgan (1993) suggest otherwise. By what mechanism does your opining negate these expert conclusions? Fourthly, it is not the case that "the research is relatively thin". Most of the citations refer to literature reviews that present comprehensive reviews (eg. Shaprpley, 1984, 1987; Druckman & Swets, 1988). What is "thin" is studies that have found support for NLP. Fifthly, you write that "even in the case of eye-accessing cues, which most of the research has been devoted to, some studies say it works, and some don't, and in most cases methodology is likely to be the cause of the results, not the theory". Eye accessing cues and PRS have been well investigated and found to be unsupported (Sharpley, 1984; Sharpley, 1987). It is plainly false to say "some studies say it works, and some don't". Other areas of NLP have also been investigated and also found to be unsupported by evidence (Druckman & Swets, 1988; Dixon et al, 1986; Baddeley, 1989; Elich et al, 1985; Melvin & Miller, 1988). On what basis can you claim that "in most cases methodology is likely to be the cause of the results, not the theory"? So you have a priori knowledge that NLP-predicted eye movements are true and any study which shows otherwise must be methodologically flawed because it conflicts with your a priori knowledge. The truth of eye accessing cues then is a matter of faith for you. In any event this is merely for your education. Experts that know more about cognition, linguistics, psycholinguistics, neurology, and social psychology have conducted studies and reviewed them and decided that NLP is bunkum. Sixthly, you aren't actually after a "factually accurate article". You have an a priori conception of NLP as theoretically sound and effective. For you -- as made evident by your remark regarding eye accessing cues -- that NLP is sound and true is axiomatic, it is "first principle". If an emprical test fails to substantiate an NLP hypothesis that study must -- by logical implication since the correctness of NLP is axiomatic -- be flawed. If NLP fails a meta-theoretic analysis that analysis -- by logical implication -- must be based on a misundersatnding. You have a faith based position, NLP satisfies at least a component of your religiosity, it is one of the constants that forms your Weltenschaung, like God for faith-based theists. flavius 03:41, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Anon. Welcome to comment. I think if you go to various NLP newsgroups, you will find Dilts to be quite controversial. He says all kinds of strange things that NLPers don't like, including adding the logical levels and spirit stuff. There is also a huge lot of pseudoscience in the encyclopedia he wrote, so he is enormously odd according to scientists. His description of neurological phenomena is largely erroneous. There are a great many views about NLP and Wikipedia is designed to include all significant views. There are things that NLP newsgroups tend not to talk about. Remember that NLP is very promotional. So they won't mention NLP cults or cults using NLP because it is generally bad press. They also will not mention the court cases and litigation from advertising standards bodies. All cults deny that they are cults, including the likes of Dianetics and other such pseudoscietific psychocults. They are pretty bad at looking in the mirror though. The research on NLP shows that it is many things; scientifically unsupported, ineffective, pseudoscientific, principally erroneous and so on according to the literature. This NLP article reports those findings. I understand you would want to advocate your own "knowledge" of NLP but really there has been a great deal of research done on this matter by a number of thorough researchers here. There are people such as yourself who deny the facts, but the facts have been verified many times and corroborated by other research and other researchers such as Platt (2002) who has appeared and given his account of the state of NLP. If you require further evidence please check out the references yourself. You will find they are indeed solidly factual. NLP is in fact pseudoscientific in principle, in theory, in practice, and in excuse. Cheers DaveRight 02:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi anonymous. It has been said that NLPers are generally unable to countenance scientific reviews of NLP because they are negative overall. The more recent reviews show that the supporting studies are fatally flawed, and the studies showing NLP is wrong or ineffective are rigorous, well done, and published to a higher standard. Mind myths are quite elusive things, and it is so easy to swallow pleasant concepts of empowerment, but quite hard to face reality sometimes. I understand you are probably up against some very hard facts. Thats life, and if you just keep moving forward you can lose the cumbersome baggage quite easily. There are good rigorous methods and research in clinical psychology, and some very well supported methods such as CBT. Best go and seek out the golden nuggets of fact and lose the NLP dross. You sound well intentioned to me. Best regards Camridge 03:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Avoid Comaze's Persistent Antagonism and Conflict Promotion: Remove his groundless objections, and stay cool

Hello all. This is not a personal attack, it is advice for reduction of conflict in order the article be further improved. I must point out that Comaze is deliberately stiring up trouble. He has stopped posting sockpuppet labels on editor's pages (though he refuses to remove them), but his strategy now is to find any excuse to accuse editors of making personal attacks on him and makes multiple complaints on multiple personal pages. Comaze has just tried to mix criticism with the above NLP section even though the criticisms were seperated from the NLP claims section in order to reduce conflict. Therefore, Comaze's agenda is to create conflict through antagonism and vexatious litigation. Solution: Remove his objections from your personal pages, ignore his persistent nagging, revert his conflict stiring actions, and just stay cool. Cheers DaveRight 02:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Please see your talk page for a reply. I have already asked you if you want to get an RfC to resolve our content disputes. If you think it is getting too personal send me a email or private message. --Comaze 03:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Its good advice Dave. Comaze is as persistently damaging as anyone could be to any editor's state of mind. Lets all just be reasonable, chill out and get on with research/editing. Camridge 03:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

This comment from Camridge, "Comaze is as persistently damaging [...] to any editor's state of mind." is the type of comment against me that I have subjected to by (HeadleyDown, AliceDeGrey, JPLogan, DaveRight, D.Right, and group) for months. I posted requests on their talk pages to stop only to be ignored. I'm surpirsed that this continues even after the request for arbitration was accepted. I feel that this group of editors are trying to "own" the article and talk page. I really want this to work so I'm still open to negotiation. Please contact me by private message if you want to discuss privately. --Comaze 00:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, considering your history and persistent troublesome antics, the effort to point out your desire to mess things up for editors is entirely justified. Ignoring your persistent "tedious and uncooperative" behavior is about the healthiest attitude an editor can adopt. Briefly pointing out your nuisance is also an option. I believe it would actually be helpful for editors on this article to have standard replies that people could simply paste to you, such as "your unreasonable objection has been ignored" and so on. This would at least save time. You have asked so many deliberately obtuse repeat questions, and made so many repeat demands against reason that you take up a considerable portion of the effort wasting parts of the archives. You certainly don't deserve such careful replies. JPLogan 02:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze! You have reverted to your surreptitious mixing of edits in order to make them harder to correct/revert so you can push your agenda, and even when our mediator VoiceOfAll told you not to do so. If you do it again, I do not care how seemingly constructive some of the edits seem, I will simply revert your surreptitious editing. It is completely reasonable for any other editor to revert your nonsense as such. Your persistent nuisance has been noted. JPLogan 03:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)