Talk:Olmecs

I'm researching on the Olmecs, so I have a few comments. 1. They had musical instruments. 2. They had many pyramids. Perhaps someone could elaborate? Especially on the pyramid part.

Genetics

I'm a bit puzzled by the recent additions of genetic studies; last I heard archaeologists had an unfortunate lack of Olmec skeletons due to such not being preserved in the harsh jungle soil. If the intended point is about something more general than the specific Pre-Classic Olmec, perhaps it belongs in some other article. Wondering, -- Infrogmation 04:56, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Pulled out speculations

I've pulled out the content below, added by User:Roylee.

Researchers (see Universidad Complutense reference below) analyzing the genome of 6050 individuals of 59 different populations to arrive at a genetic heritage for present day Olmec people have concluded:

1. The Olmec people may be the ancestors of the Mayans.
2. Language studies (linguistics) and genetics do not accurately correlate in "microenvironmental" scenarios.
3. How people arrived in the Americas seems to be more complex than previously speculated, because present day Meso- and South American Amerindians show a genetic lineage in isolation from "all world populations (including Africans, Europeans, Asians, Australians, Polynesians, North American Na-Dene Indians and Eskimos). Significant genetic input from outside is not noticed in Meso and South American Amerindians according to the phylogenetic analyses."

Upon comparing thousands of ancient and modern skulls for over 20 years of study, University of Michigan anthropologists confirm recent archaeological and genetic studies indicating "that descendants of the first humans to enter the New World, including natives of Mexico, Peru, and the southern United States, have no obvious ties to any Asian groups" [1].

It is obvious that this text is meant to imply something. The earlier redaction makes the hidden agenda more clear, as it included the following: The questions facing researchers now are: If Meso- and South American Amerindians evolved in isolation from the remainder of the world, why are we still so similar ... genotypically and phenotypically? Obviously our similiarities stem from a common ancestor. But then how could the Olmec have reached Central and South America?

The problem is that Wikipedia articles should not imply anything. Wikipedia's job is only report facts, and not to cleverly combine 'recent studies' and cite them out of context to make articles say things that are in effect fringe theories. — mark ✎ 10:03, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Hi mark, it seems to me that what Roylee would like to say is that the Olmec were descended from early West African explorers, who sailed over to the Americas and used their superior technology to create the first American civilization. Such a claim would seem to be consistent with the general trend of his broadly Afrocentric edits elsewhere. However, I think any reader less familiar with Roylee's edit-history would be hard-put to find any such implication in the words as they are given above. The earlier version was a different matter.

However, I agree that the edit should be held in suspesion until some things are clarified. As you know, the edit follows from Roylee's interpretation of the article he added as an external link. The relevant passage is as follows:

The main conclusions are: 1) An indirect evidence of Olmec and Mayan relatedness is suggested, further supporting the notion that Olmecs may have been the precursors of Mayans; 2) Language and genetics do not completely correlate in microenvironmental studies; and 3) Peopling of the Americas was probably more complex than postulated by Greenberg and others (three peopling waves). Significant genetic input from outside is not noticed in Meso and South American Amerindians according to the phylogenetic analyses; while all world populations (including Africans, Europeans, Asians, Australians, Polynesians, North American Na-Dene Indians and Eskimos) are genetically related. Meso and South American Amerindians tend to remain isolated in the Neighbor-Joining, correspondence and plane genetic distance analyses.

While I can follow the first three points easily enough, I find the bracketed section about "all world populations" rather gnomic. It seems to say that Meso and South Americans are "genetically" unrelated to all other human beings in the world! I think we really need to have a clearer sense what the authors meant to imply by this assertion before we can use it. Paul B 12:48, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Its also worth noting that North American Na-Dene Indians are believed to be a separate group from all Native Americans, including North American ones, so it is curious how that study in question claims the Olmecs are not related to the Na-Dene, but does not claim that they are not related to North American Native Americans, such as Ojibwe or Wampanoag. --Bletch 15:43, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Pulled out pending evidence of notability

I moved the following recent addition out of the article, pending citation and evidence of notability:

An African cultural influence is speculated by some to be the underlying reason for the rapid, unprecedented technological and cultural progress shown by the Olmecs around 1000 BC; DNA sequencing studies seem to show some unresolved patterns in modern-day descendants of the Olmecs - however, any African influence would have been small and based on only a few handful of individuals drifting across the Atlantic by accident and adverse weather and thus not likely leave a significant genetic legacy.

This paragraph is useless because it is not referenced, it is full of weasel words, and barely more than pure speculation — though I like the obvious attention paid to phrasing it as NPOV as possible. The reader is left wondering why 'only a few handful of individuals drifting across the Atlantic' would be able to cause a 'rapid, unprecendented technological and cultural progress'. We really need reliable sources to back this up and/or to provide evidence of the notability of this view. The whole thing smells a bit too much of Afrocentrism. What is it with the Olmecs these days on Wikipedia? — mark ✎ 00:43, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's worth remembering that there is absolutely zero evidence of any African influence in ancient Central America. No African artefacts, no known genetic links. Nothing. All of this speculation derives from the fact that the Olmec busts look vaguely Negroid. That's it. Given that they are clearly stylised, that's almost no evidence at all, but even if they did give us some indication of the physiognomy of Olmecs it's a huge leap to suggest African exploration. I'd have thought the presence of Australoid or Negrito elements in the population would be far far more likely.

Anyway, what we really need is a proper account of the historical development of Olmec culture, so I will try to add it. Paul B 013:15, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

no thats not it.. it seems that Mayan and Olmec writing has been deciphered using the languages/writing of North africa Astrokey44 00:28, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Astrokey, I'm afraid you (or your sources) are quite mistaken, with regards to any input or influence African languages/writing has had in the decipherment for Maya, Olmec, or any other Mesoamerican script. There has been none. Please see Maya hieroglyphics for a start- there's quite a lengthy explanation as to the background on the steps towards decipherment of that writing system; the languages appearing in the script are quite definitively and conclusively Maya languages, with no demonstrated link to African languages past or present- Maya languages which today are still spoken (in their descendent forms) by millions of Maya people today. For a variety of reasons, Olmec writing cannot really be said to be deciphered at this point, but there is no reason whatsover to suspect any African influences here either- the various mesoamerican civilizations are quite intricately interlinked. If not convinced, I encourage you to browse around some much more reliable references, such as foundation for Mesoamerican studies. --cjllw | TALK 00:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

ok maybe I stumbled across the wrong sites, but there still seems to be large community of people who believe that it has been deciphered due to African languages, probably large enough to be noted in the article. Look up "Olmec language" on google and see the first sentence it says [2] Astrokey44 00:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Whether this belief is widespread enough to warrant mentioning here, I'm not sure. It's unfortunate that the whacky new-ageist crystalinks site comes up first in that particular search- perhaps if the corresponding Wikipedia was further expanded, it'd be able to knock this one from its ranking position... .--cjllw TALK 04:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

west africa

There seems to be alot of evidence that the olmecs may have come from West Africa, - it isnt just the similarities with the colossal heads. Its also the language - I think the Olmec language has been proven to be similar to the languages of West Africa [3] [4] "The Olmec Writing is Unique. The Signs are similar to the writing used by the Vai people of West Africa. The Olmecs spoke and aspect of the Manding (Malinke-Bambara) language spoken in West Africa." [5] Astrokey44 12:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

What "Olmec language"? We have no writing from them, only a few signs. AFAIK, there are no significant similarities between West African and surviving Native American languages. Paul B 13:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I thought they did have writing & it seems they deciphered Mayan writing (which developed from Olmec) using similarities with ancient N. African writing. There seems to be heaps of results showing an african link on google [6] Maybe not other native american languages, possibly it only influenced the Olmecs Astrokey44 13:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

There are some Olmec texts, but most are short (such as calendric dates, or single glyphs thought to give the identiy of the deity depicted). The few longer pre-classic texts are still poorly understood, but are related to-- but not the same as-- the currently much better understood Maya writings. The West African origin or connection of the Olmec has long been promoted vehemently by a group of fringe writers, but I know of no archaeologists or serious Mesoamericanists who say there is any actual evidence for it. (For example the African Mande artifacts a certain writer likes to point to are actually centuries later than the Olmec, and no serious scholars have yet found evidence of the supposed connection.) Cheers, -- Infrogmation 15:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Mayan texts can be deciphered. The Mayan language is not thought by linguists to be related to West African languages . The web-pages you refer to are are fringe Afrocentrist scholarship, comparable to the Hindutva claims to have translated the Indus script and proven it to be Sanskrit. The Olmec produced glyphs that probably formed part of a proto-writing system, but our understanding of that is as yet uncertain. Such understanding as there is assumes a link to known forms of Meso-American languages, not to West African ones. The epi-Olmec cultures and the Mayans developed fuller writing systems. Look, for example, at reliable souces of information, such as this one [7] to see the current state of play. Paul B 15:13, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

If the alleged link between Olmec and West African text has enough serious evidence for it that it is published in serious scholarly publications, in the article it will go. Until such a time, such fringe hypothesizing no more should be stated as fact here than the similar allegegations that the Olmec were actually Polenesian, Chinese, or Extra-Terrestrials. -- Infrogmation 15:26, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. The sole "evidence" for claims of African origins seem to be based upon a superficial resemblance of the heads to negroid features, thickened lips and all. I find it surprising that dedicated Afrocentrists would want to rely upon such stereotypical material. When von Daniken looked at the selfsame statues, they "obviously" were wearing space helmets, complete with microphone, thus "proving" they were extra-terrestrials.--cjllw | TALK 23:37, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

What about this sentence which appears on many sites: Over a decade ago Winters (1979, 1997) deciphered the Olmec writing and discovered that you could read the Olmec inscriptions using the sound value of the Vai signs. Are you saying that they didn't decipher the language? It seems to me that they deciphered the Olmec and Mayan languages, and are trying to sweep under the rug the fact that they used African languages to do it. I'm not 'afrocentric' at all, Ive just seen this same information in quite alot of sites, it seems to be more than just 'fringe'. And for serious scholarly publications, what about Rafinesque in 1832 who "published an important paper on the Mayan writing that helped in the decipherment of the Olmec Writing". "Leo Wiener (1922, v.3), was the first researcher to recognize the resemblance's between the Manding writing and the symbols on the Tuxtla statuette. In addition, Harold Lawrence (1962) noted that the "petroglyphic" inscriptions found throughout much of the southern hemisphere compared identically with the writing system of the Manding." [8] and also "Paper presented at the 1997 Central States Anthropological Society Meeting, treating Olmec as a West African language." I also found a page once which showed the correlation with the symbols, cant seem to find it now. This one does it though not as well: [9] ---- Astrokey44 00:00, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Not to worry, Astrokey, one can easily be led astray by sources posing as authorative, when they are nothing of the kind. Unfortunately much of this speculative material gets replicated through the web, this multiplication seeming to bolster the argument, whereas it is mere repetition of the same misinformation (btw, my comment re "dedicated Afrocentrists" above was not a reference to you, but rather the types of sources in which this appears; hope you were not offended). In general, I would be extremely cautious about using any geocities or similar page as a reference- absolutely anybody can set one of those up. The citations these have given seem to be a mix of the fringe (like Lawrence) with (mis-)quotes from reasonable sources, like Rafinesque. Rafinesque did make some insightful comments re the likely nature of Maya script, but it would be more than 120 years before its decipherment really took off; and no-one before the 1930s could have anything to say about the Olmec, as their civilisation's remains were not discovered before then. Reputable scholars like Heine-Geldern have from time to time noted various similarities (without necessarily claiming a direct link) between Mesoamerican and more distant cultures (mainly in Asia), but not so much these days and none of these claims have stood up to scrutiny. And presenting a paper is not the same thing as having it accepted.--cjllw TALK 04:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Zingh Empire

Oh come on now. Most people here would agree that the Moron's claim are a bit strecthed, yet they still get mentioned despite having no proof. I'm not claiming that the Olmecs are definitively black or west african but there is enough evidence to at least suggest it as a possibility. Linguistics is one of them as well as physical appearance. The Olmecs certainly look more African than say Mayans, Aztecs, or most other native americans. There are countless books and websites that support claims that either the Olmecs were from West Africa or at least came into enough contact with NorthWestern Africans to speak a similiar language and make similiar looking statues. I don't know if everthing claimed in all these websites and books is true but I do know that they all seem to have consistent claims of a Zingh empire that came across the Atlantic and made contact with Olmecs and spoke similiar language. Some books actually explained that cotton which was native to africa was in the region of where the Olmecs were and no where else in America. Strange coincidence? I don't know but worth mentioning. There is also the Mende language and 'inferior' pyramid builing. Both West Africa and the Olmec had the same language and so called 'inferior' pyramid building. They were no Egyptian or Nubian pyramids but it is something unique to the two cultures. Also: The Washitaw Nation of Louisiana is one such group, the Garifuna or Black Caribs of the Caribbean and Central America is another, the descendants of the Jamasse who live in Georgia and the surrounding states is another group. There are also others such as the Black Californian of Queen Calafia fame (the Black Amazon Queen mentioned in the book Journey to Esplandian, by Ordonez de Montalvo during the mid 1500's).

The Olmecs used an African practice that is very common in Africa. That practice is body scarification and specifically facial scarification as practiced in West Africa. Many of the facial scars seen on the Olmec terracotta faces, such as "dot" keloids and "lined" patterns are identical to Africans such as the Dinka of Sudan and the Yoruba and others of West Africa. (Dinka scarification can be found in old copies of National Geographic. Olmec scarification can be found in the text by "Alexander Von Wuthenau, Unexpected Faces in Ancient America."

African hairstyles such as cornroes are found on many of the Olmec terracotta found in Mexico. Both kinky hair carved into one of the collosal stone heads of basalt, as well as the cornroed style wearing tassels (see African Presence in Early America, by Ivan Van Sertima; Transaction Publisher)

The Olmecs practiced a religion and astronomical sciences identical to those practiced by Africans in the Mali region and Nigeria today. The Olmecs studied the Venus Complex in astronomy. Today, the Ono and Bambara who are famous sea and river travelers have studied that same complex for thousands of years. In fact, another group the Dogon are well known for their tracking and mapping of the Sirius star system and their accurate results.

The Olmecs also had a religious practice of Thunder worship where the ax was a prominent feature. In West Africa, the ax is also a prominent feature in connection with the Shango or Thunder God worship. Both the Olmecs and the Shango worshippers in West Africa placed an emphasis on the religious significance of children in their religious practices. Also both groups coincidentally call the thunder gd shango Astronomers did a study that said there is no way that the Olmecs could have seen some of the stars their calendar was based on which proves they must have foreign contact with people from either South West Europe,West/north Africa, or mid-east because those were the only places that all of the stars could be seen at once.

Studies done by researchers such as Ivan Van Sertima (They Came Before Columbus), Alexander Von Wuthenau (Unexpected Faces in Ancient America), Runoko Rashidi and others have presented evidence that clearly show that the Olmecs were not Indians with "baby faces," or Indians who looked like Blacks (although a few Olmecs did mix with the Native Americans). They were Africans no different from Africans found in the Mende regions of West Africa.

This is enough evidence to at least have a mention in the Olmec article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adallasas (talk • contribs) 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I think they are called Mormons, not Morons. There is no "linguistic evidence" or biological evidence. The rest of this is just speculation. Scarification is practiced by Polynesians, does that make them African in origin (or the Olmecs Polynesians). Thor is a god of thunder, and axes are significant in Norse culture. Does that mean that ancient Nordic peoples came from west Africa? Anyway, the Afrocentrist claims are mentioned in the article. Paul B 11:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

No offense but you seem to be more concerned with stating this as afrocentric than looking at any of the evidence. Have you ever been to central america where the Olemc site is? Maybe, but have you translated the scripts. Doesn't even matter. I think you are a bit eurocentric because you are scared to have any sort of link being mentioned despite the linguistic evidence. If you put Olmec in google half of the links explain their african heritage. I'm not saying it is all credible but clearly there is a link. If the Olmec spoke Greek and worshipped Greek gods and doubt you would be denying they had a link to greek peoples. These are not afrocentric claims they are reality claims. Go look it up for yourself.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs) 16 December 2005 (UTC)

So I am "eurocentric" because I say that the Olmecs were native Americans? Doesn't that seem a bit of an eccentric use of language? I suggest you look at fewer websites and more books. AFAIK, the linguistic evidence does not suggest W. African links it suggests American links. Paul B 22:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Jmac800, as Paul notes there is no "linguistic evidence"- it is not even well established what language(s) were spoken in the Tabasco region at the time of the Olmec (such evidence as there is points to Mixe-Zoque), let alone that there is a relationship between those and African languages. A bunch of webpages pulled up in a google search does not a case make- just like in wikipedia, you need to consider just how reliable or otherwise these "sources" are before wanting to rely on them. Quite frankly, there's an awful lot of rot circulating, and the random associations, distortions, outright errors (no-one has a clue what the Olmec themselves actually called their deities, for eg) in these sites (and in Adallasas's post above) actually belittle the significant achievements of African and Mesoamerican cultures alike. I can't argue that these "Olmecs came from Africa" views are so obscure as to be not notable; however, they do need to be presented for what they are, together with the account on how actual scholarship views them. In fact, if you wanted there are actually several "traditional" scholars, such as Heine-Geldern, who have in the past entertained hypotheses on external connections and who could be quoted (along with their rebuttals).--cjllw | TALK 00:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Well I can't argue for adals but I there are some pretty daming similiarities between these two cultures. I looked it up and there are encyclopedias and books many of them I had to translate from spanish that claim or suggest the OPlmecs were black. It seems as if this is impossible for you to understand or believe as if no one could have made contact with native american before white people seems to be your argument. There is a bit of evidence this guy gives and I don't think it is enough to say its all fairy tales becuase I have seen some of the arguements he posted in books. Espcially the thing about the stars in the Olmec calendar they wouldn't have been able to see.

African stuff

I wonder whether the African stuff should be put in a separate section, or merged with the Mormon stuff in a section called "alternative views" or something like that. At the moment the Afrocentric stuff is rather buried in the "collossal heads" section. At least if its in the open, as it were, it can be placed alongside the Jaredites, since there is an overlap between the two models - what with the Jaredites being deemed "Hamitic" and all. Paul B 19:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

At best, any of the fringe theories including Mormon speculation and Afrocentrist claims (if they are to be mentioned at all) should be placed in a separate section towards the end. Mixing this stuff up with what is evidentially-based and generally accepted by scholarship is just confusing the matter. As things stand, overall this is rather a confused and very incomplete article, and in need of a significant rewrite and addition of citeable sources. Such "alternative" views also clearly need to be marked as such.--cjllw | TALK 23:26, 15 December 2005 (UTC)