Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Neuro-linguistic programming/Workshop

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. It provides for suggestions by Arbitrators and other users and for comment by arbitrators, the parties and others. After the analysis of /Evidence here and development of proposed principles, findings of fact, and remedies. Anyone who edits should sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they have confidence in on /Proposed decision.

Motions and requests by the parties

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Me first (DaveRight). I will try to keep deadly serious, but bare with me, its not easy. It would help if NLPers came out straight and admitted how unscientific and new age NLP is. They keep denying the very existence of scientific research, even after lots of it is provided, and even deny the books are about the structure of magic and full of fluffy flakey stuff. If they took the stand that NLP is unashamedly new age, spiritually non judgmental, and ethically neutral, then the latter cricicisms would have less effect and they wouldn't have to go bananas looking for excuses or deleting the lot. They have all the excuses they need in the literature, and those are preemptive on the whole. Science is negative and critical, and that is the basis of the criticism section. That should work for starters. Cheers DaveRight 03:39, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

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minimum of one year probation

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1. I request that arbcom consider as a minimum a one-year probation for HeadleyDown, JPLogan, DaveRight, AliceDeGrey, and BookMain on any article concerning NLP or any other topic considered to be in the "self-help" or "therapeutic" category. FuelWagon 18:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

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Locus of dispute

1) Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is the focus of this ongoing dispute between advocates of NLP and sceptics marked by point of view editing, edit warring and personal attacks.

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Comaze

2) Comaze (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a focus of attention and criticism by HeadleyDown [1] and Camridge [2] [3]

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Point of view editing by HeadleyDown

2) HeadleyDown (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has engaged in POV editing, characterizing NLP in the introduction to the article as 'a quasi-spiritual behavior-modification (or "performance psychology") technique whose crux is "modelling," or "NLP modelling"' [4]. He also added the following applications of NLP to the introduction "new age spirituality, occult development, and remote ESP influence", citing no source [5]. More: [6], [7], [8].

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1. Inserting a POV generalization in the introduction can negate the effect of an otherwise constructive edit Fred Bauder 16:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

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Point of view editing by JPLogan

3) JPLogan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has engaged in POV editing, characterizing NLP in the introduction to the article as "a pseudoscientific self help development proposed for programming the mind." [9]

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1. Inserting a POV generalization in the introduction can negate the effect of an otherwise constructive edit Fred Bauder 16:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

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Personal attacks by Camridge

4) Camridge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has engaged in personal attacks [10] [11] [12]

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DaveRight's violation of civility

5) DaveRight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has expressed a strong point of view regarding NLP [13] which violates Wikipedia:Civility, see also this comment.

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1. While directed at NLP rather than another user, this crosses the line. Fred Bauder 16:37, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

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POV editing by DaveRight

6) DaveRight has engaged in point of view editing, characterizing NLP in the introduction as "pseudoscientific" [14]

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POV editing by AliceDeGrey

7) AliceDeGrey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has engaged in point of view editing of the NLP article, removing a reference to a book and its author which is an example of applied NLP [15] and to the research work of Patrick Merlevede [16]. More: [17], [18]

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1. See http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0787234796 Fred Bauder 17:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
2. See http://users.pandora.be/merlevede/cv_eng.htm

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POV editing by FuelWagon

8) FuelWagon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) edits NLP from a strongly positive point of view citing sources from a NLP website [19], [20], [21], [22], [23] and [24] which he characterizes as "NPOV", see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming/Evidence#2_November.

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1. Perhaps the bias was not intentional. What is wrong is you are putting the NLP viewpoint in the first paragraph rather than that of a third party. Fred Bauder 20:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

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1. What the? I don't even care about NLP as a topic. I never heard of it until I started editing the article. I think I ran into it while I did nothing but vandal patrol for three days. I just edited the article to follow NPOV policy.

1. These diffs don't show POV pushing, they show me reporting the points of view from the sources who espoused them. The first diff 00:04, 2 November 2005 defines NLP using the words from two websites, purenlp.com and nlpu.com. The second diff (two minutes later)00:06, 2 November 2005 shows me attributing those definitions to the source (NLP Seminars Group). The third diff (one minute later) 00:07, 2 November 2005 shows me attributing another part of the definion to another source (Robert Dilts). The fourth diff (another two minutes later) 00:09, 2 November 2005, shows me adding further clarification, attributing definitions to Dilts. In fact, these first four diffs are back-to-back edits to the article by me, and when you look at all four diffs at once, the diff-marks look like this. This results in an introduction that starts out with the first paragraph saying:

Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is defined by the NLP Seminars Group International as the study of the structure of subjective experience and what can be calculated from that.[25] Robert Dilts, a supporter of NLP, states that NLP provides tools and skills for the development of states of individual excellence, but it also establishes a system of empowering beliefs and presuppositions about what human beings are, what communication is and what the process of change is all about. Dilts states that at another level, NLP is about self-discovery, exploring identity and mission, that it also provides a framework for understanding and relating to the 'spiritual' part of human experience that reaches beyond us as individuals to our family, community and global systems. Dilts concludes that NLP is not only about competence and excellence, it is about wisdom and vision. [26]

1. How anyone can read that paragraph and say it violates NPOV policy is beyond me. It defines NLP by reporting the views of NLP advocates, attributing their words to them, and providing URL's to verify their words are reported accurately. In a disputed topic, the general format of most articles is to report the advocate view first and then report the views of the topic's critics. That's all I did here. Diff five 02:06, 2 November 2005 and six04:33, 2 November 2005 are nothing but reverting back to this version.

1. Fred Bauder states "FuelWagon edits NLP from a strongly positive point of view citing sources from a NLP website" But that's only half the introduction. The intruduction in every version ends by reporting critcial views of NLP from Heap, Sharpley, Lillenfield, Eisner, and others, who espouse the view that NLP is pseudoscientific. Without my edits, the introduction was purely crtical points of view. With my edits, the introduction reported pro-NLP points of view and critical NLP points of view, which actually results in a neutral introduction. Perhaps Fred feels it neccessary to continue his campaign to bury me in spite of the evidence, as he made clear here. FuelWagon 19:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Fred Bauder wrote: "Perhaps the bias was not intentional. What is wrong is you are putting the NLP viewpoint in the first paragraph rather than that of a third party." Where the heck does NPOV policy say you must use a third party to remain neutral? What I've found from NPOV policy states "Facts are not points of view in and of themselves. So an easy way to avoid making a statement that promotes a point of view is to find a reputable source for a fact and cite the source." [27] "When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It's often best to cite a prominent representative of the view." [28] "the policy does not say that there even is such a thing as objectivity, a "view from nowhere" such that articles written from that point of view are consequently objectively true" [29]. Nothing in NPOV policy says use a third party to remain neutral, but rather report the different views of the different sources. In the case of NLP, there are proponents and critics and no one has shown any "third party" that didn't have an adamant point-of-view either for or against NLP. All my work on the Terri Schiavo article was nothing more than sorting out the different points of views of the main players (Terri's husband, Terri's parents, the courts, the court appointed guardians, and the various doctors). There were no opinions that could be regarded as neutral or "third party". In fact a rather large debate occurred when one editor suggested we use the court rulings as "third-party" and "objective" or "neutral", and the response from Ed Poor himself was that we should treat the court decisions as just another view. The editors who were pro-terri's-parents supported this idea heavily because the courts consistently ruled against the parents in every major decision. So, the result is to report the different points of views and report each view to the person who espoused them. That's what we did on Terri Schiavo, that's what I did on NLP. Meanwhile, I can show that SlimVirgin not only reported pro-animal-rights, pro-vegans, and pro-Israel views from main sources not considered "third party" sources, but she also deliberated deleted any and all views from various introductions that were critical of the topic [30] [31] [32]. So, I fail to see where policy says anything about "third party" sources, I fail to see such a policy work in situations such as NLP or Terri Schiavo, where every party has an opinion either for or against, and I see a direct contradiction to this being committed by SlimVirgin. FuelWagon 21:04, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

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Analysis of evidence

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General discussion

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