Talk:Challenger 2

The Thermal Observation and Gunnery Sight II (TOGS II)

I am a Control Equipment technician in the British Army and have taken the full CR2 course and have worked on them for 2-3 years. TOGS was the term for the system used on the CR1. TI is controled by the Thermal Imaging Prosessing Unit (TIPU) and the Thermal Imaging Sensor Head (TISH). This image is fed into the Gunners Primary Sight (GPS) and the Commanders Primary Sight CPS). Both are controlled by electronic units. The CPSEU and the GPSEU. Its also important to know that the gunner and commander do not have separate TI like on some other MBT. The TISH is on top of the gun.

Lopex

Copyright Problem

The basis for this article was originally [1] Some sentences are still directly or neerly completely copied from the article. I almost listed this as a copyright problem but thought best of it since it has changed so much. Rewrite this article or it will have to deleted. BrokenSegue 14:23, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Things are happening GraemeLeggett 13:34, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rate of Fire

If possible, please include the initial and sustained rates of fire. I'd help, but most of my sources here are badly outdated. I imagine rates of fire with the separate/semifixed ammo aren't the greatest? -L 4 April 2005

The bagged charge system is not at an disadvantage here. Rates of fire are in the region of 10/12 rounds per minute.

It is often the case that tanks using loaders (manual loading) can fire more quickly and sustain that rate for longer than tanks with auto-loaders. Rob cowie 12:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I've asked around and some suggest that russian autoloaders are capable of about 8 rounds per minute.Rob cowie 15:16, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The reality is that the operational limit on rate of fire is accurate laying of the gun, and it is rare for the loading to cause delay. Having been a commmander of one of these, I doubt that a rate of fire of much over 6 rounds a minute could be achieved even on a range Busted Flush 12:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Busted Flush Any rate of fire above 6 rnds per min is unrealistic , particuarly when on a range (and therefore not short cutting handling drills) soldatuk@yahoo.co.uk

I served in the USMC in the initial invasion as a gunner on an Abrams. I for one can not agree with the 6rpm statement. Maybe for a two part round that the Challenger uses, but for a good Marine Abram crew it is expect and trained to be able to load 8 or 9rpm. And yes that is at a range. So I would deduct 2rpm off both tanks rpm fired in combat. Thats only due to target acquisition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdmatkin (talk • contribs) 17:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Challenger2 can fire 10 shots in 50 secs on a range with perfect conditions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.51.140 (talk) 12:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I used to be a gunner on a Leopard, my loader was able to load a new shell in 6-7 seconds on the range, but the smoke had rarely cleared the sight by the time the loader had completed the reload, so reload time was irrelevant in regards to rate of fire, at least under low wind conditions wims 04:23 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Slew Rate

It would be great to see slew rates listed for the main turret on all of the MBT articles in wikipedia. Elevation/depression rates would be icing on the cake. -L 4 April 2005

The Slew Rate for one complete traverse is 12 seconds +-2 seconds

Is the Slew Rate 12 +/- seconds or 9 seconds. The article says both. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.125.108.69 (talk) 08:29, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

Elevation rate is not tested and is difficult to ascertain as there are limit switches in the elevation gearbox which operate under certain critea. Its quick enough to crush your head though.

soldatuk@yahoo.co.uk

Challenger 2E

The article seems to say the 2E is superior (fire control and power pack) to the original. It also says it's an export-only version? Is the armor the same, worse, or better?

Better.--MWAK 14:56, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it's my U.S. bias to be surprised at the export version possibly being better (in the U.S., the government almost never allows export of a version that's superior to what the U.S. military has). Call us paranoid. We may want to reconsider that policy in order to keep important and expensive weapons systems in continued factory production for longer periods, in these days of rising weapons systems costs and harder to find money in defense budgets. Still, it would be terribly galling to one day get shot at by people with stuff better than our own, and stuff that we sold to them. In short, it would be a boon to the defense industry, a political nightmare domestically, and at the minimum infuriating for the troops. -L 4 April 2005

Remember that the original Shir-2 was developed for Iran and that the British would have been unable to fit any tanks with Chobham if development and production of the ceramic modules hadn't been funded by the Shah :o). Also remember that the Americans didn't develop Chobham. :>}--MWAK 14:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Nothing I read anywhere (including the Alvis Vickers site) mentioned that the 2E was "export only". Indeed, everything I read said that the 2E is superior to the 2, although I would think the armour is probably the same. I have therefore altered the article to reflect this. If anyone (e.g. a Vickers employee!) can confirm the facts it would be great. As a side note, I suspect if the British Army could afford to replace all the Challenger 2s they just got to the 2E, then they would. Bobbis 17:02, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I was always under the impression that the armour on the 2E is identical to that of the 2. Of course, if the customer is willing to pay, applique armour kits could be fitted as standard to the 2E, but the underlying armour is Chobham. Rob cowie 13:31, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The answer is very simple. New forms of ceramic composites are developed constantly. But the British army obviously can't afford completely refitting their existing tanks constantly; they slowly use up available stock, replacing the modules when on major overhauls they are discovered to be fractured beyond an acceptable limit. That stock is then replenished with new types. So it can take a while before new armour reaches the tanks themselves. A completely new export version would however be offered with the best armour. This doesn't mean that the actual prototype of the 2E is fitted with it, but that is immaterial. It is the virtual 2E that matters. :o)--MWAK 18:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Ton or 1000 kg

This is a very minor point, but I notice GraemeLeggett changed 62,500 kg to 62.5 t. The reason I changed this in the first place was because the ton/tonne is a bit ambigious (see the Ton entry and this page). The metric ton is not a true SI unit, although I appreciate it is widely treated as such. Just thought I would explain my reasoning, but I am perfectly happy to go with the majority opinion on this. Bobbis 18:48, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Its not an SI unit, but it is the common use unit, and worthy if only for ease of readability. The diferrence between the Imperial ton and metric makes little difference when dealing with a large vehicle, especially in this case as the actual weight could vary depending on loading with stores, ammunition, fuel, crew etc. GraemeLeggett 08:46, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Compare to the M1 Abrams?

How does it compare to the M1 Abrams? Which is better?

It lost several competitions agains M1(AFAIK M1A2) and some more against Leopard 2 (AFAIK Leo2 A6). --Denniss 18:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

A brief conversation with a few friends of mine who operate these things yielded only surprise at this statement. Any details would be appreciated as we cannot think of any competition ever lost by British Army tank crews. Rob cowie 12:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)Yeah right. Check out "Canadian Army Trophy".

It certainly lost out in several competitions for various NATO and foreign armies looking to buy new tanks. The usual reason was the 120mm rifled gun - NATO standard is a smoothbore - and not any inferiority of the tank in terms of reliability or battleworthyness. As for which is better the M1 or the Challenger then there's no question that the Challenger is more survivable, its gun is more versatile (though not quite as good at firing APFSDS as the smoothbore on the M1) and its diesel engine has some advantages over the M1's too (uses less fuel and doesn't fry any infantryman who gets too close not to mention shining like a beacon to anyone with a thermal imager). Of course the M1 is probably cheaper because the yanks have turned out many more of them and when you're looking for a new tank for your army price is always important.

True: there are many who think that the use of a gas turbine in the M1 was a mistake. The point about the gun is an interesting one; there has always been disagreement amongst experts about the smoothbore/rifled question. The British Army chose it primarily (I think) to allow accurate firing of HESH rounds. Rob cowie 14:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, there was a time when 120mm smoothbore was limited to HEAT and APFSDS. However, fin-stabilised HE with different fuzes has already been fielded, allowing for delay fuze as well as air-burst. 120mm Canister-rounds have also been fielded. and the Danish have made Pele-rounds(Penetrator with Enhanced Lateral Effect) for their tanks. With the NATO standard being 120mm smoothbore, it would be a fair assumption that more variants of ammo are going to be fielded for the smoothbore than for the rifled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.109.96.8 (talk) 16:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

So far as I have been able to work out it is substantially tougher than an Abrams, easier to support logistically due to eating less fuel, shows up less on IR and the rifled gun with HESH rounds is much better for breaking up fortifications or blowing apart Russian tanks at long range. On the other hand the Abrams is subsantially cheaper, its smoothbore gun has better armour penetration at short to medium ranges, and it goes a LOT faster. Different design philosophies, if you have the logistics (and American does) then for taking on an equivelent technology enemy in large scale manouver warfare Abrams are no doubt wonderful, for taking on lower tech enemies while supplied with less extravagent support and smaller numbers Challenger II's seem better suited. Of course for situations like Iraq I would -definitely- prefer Challengers. They seem to be immune to older man portable anti tank weapons and speed is not so important for urban warfare.

The Abrams is not faster! it depends on what surface you're going on. On a road the Abrams is faster but off road the challenger 2 is supposedly the fastest in the world! Also i'd rather have a proper diesel motor rather than a bloomin' jet powering my tank. Furthermore A Challenger 2 is far less likely to be inhabited by a trigger-happy American gun crew who will likely shoot their allies because they moved.--89.241.159.253 (talk) 13:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Problem is you really can't look at two tanks and say "which one is better", its rather like looking at two different plates of food and saying "that one is better". Its really down to personal taste and individual requirements. Whilst one may have more technical equiptment and higher performance from a tank - it may as a result be much heavier than ones operational requirements allow and so a lighter more reduced model is needed. However I think one can say that the Challenger 2 MBT can be considered to be either 'the' or one of 'the best' tanks in the world taking into account things such as its weight, NBC, speed and weaponry performance. NATO tests are not conclusive of which tank is 'better' because they themselves look for specific features, one of which is price - and of course the challenger 2 is immensley expensive as tanks go. Its safe to say its also one of the most expensive tanks available. But it fits in with the british design philiosophy of a small but elite group of units rather than massed numbers of cheaper inferior models.

Thats a very good point. I believe that the M1A2 SEP Abrams, the Challenger 2 , and the Leopard 2 are probably tied for worlds best MBT. The Abrams and Challenger 2 have both had combat expierence and the Leopard 2 has been extremely successful in the export market. To the point were the manufacturers are calling it the Euro Leopard. I can't say the Leclerc because it hasn't been around very long and has seen no combat or export success -jnunn2

The SEP is only mildly upgraded. No major increase in armor, only gadgetry as most of my fellow Marine tankers call it. When comparing tanks there are four things to take into account. Firepower, movement, communication, and crew survivability. First, firepower, the main gun of the Abrams is now a bit under powered compared to the Challenger, Leo2a5, and the Leclerc. Second, movement, again the Abrams suffers compared to the others. Third, communication, the US Army's SEP package I think brings the Abrams up to par with the rest in that area, as well with all the new digital enhancements. Last, crew survivability, this is the hardest to tell. The Leo2 and Leclerc have yet to face real combat. And the Challenger is prone to the same kind of attacks that Abrams are, but is does seem to fair a bit better. But in the Abrams defense the Challenger2 is ten years younger and has a newer armor package then the Abrams. The Leo2a5 is also newer with the Germans being very pro-active in keeping thier tanks up to par. Something that America has let slip. They have made no major changes to the armor, gun, or fire-control sysytems in years. And the Leclerc, its anybodies guess. Its newer, faster, and has a bigger gun but I just dont know about that armor package. All in all the Abrams is showing its age and without a major overhaul it maybe time to retire it for something that can take its place. And a note the US Army has added a lot of bells and whistles with the SEPs package but the somehow forgot the sights when the where upgrading. The Abrams current sights are rated out to 4000m, comparable with the others. But the USMC has tested but yet to fit a 25x sigh that would let their tanks push the range out to 8000m. I can stand by that my unit tested it. But I think it unlikely to be used due to the rising opinion that the Abrams is ending its service life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdmatkin (talk • contribs) 19:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I would say that the Challenger is a better individual tank, but that is balanced out by the reasons pointed out in the comments of the post two above. - GodlyAvatar

Safe Cracking.

As far as the story about blowing open a safe is concerned it is eiter false or falsely reported. The British army does not field a HEAT round for the challenger - as far as I'm aware there isn't a 120mm HEAT round available for the 120mm rifled gun. The British Army uses the more versatile HESH round.

The story is from the Brainac series on SkyOne, I believe it was a sabot round, or at least reported as such.

I agree, the ammunition was a discarding sabot round of unidentified warhead. Likely a dud if I remember correctly. A highly dubious source either way for accurate information.

(note, a Sabot round does not have an exploding warhead. It relies completely on penetrating power to destroy it's target) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tungtvann (talk • contribs) 15:04, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah the safe story is true ive seen that episode like 10000489375934759437502042 times.

Armament

The article mentions that the Challenger 2 fires; "Around 50 rounds can be carried from a selection of APFSDS, HESH or smoke." - I was under the impression that APFSDS stood for Armour Piercing, Fin Stabilised, Discarding Sabot - with the main gun being rifled, what exactly is the point of fin stabilising your shell? I thought the whole point of rifling the barrel was to increase the accuracy especially at range? Please forgive my ignorance. 58.7.210.43 07:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

APFSDS is correct. Spin is actually bad for APFSDS rounds (for fairly complex reasons), which is why most other tanks use smoothbore guns. Additionally friction from the rifling reduces the muzzle velocity of the round to 1530 m/s compared with 1700 m/s for most other smoothbore 120 mm APFSDS rounds. The British continue to use rifled guns because HESH rounds won't work nearly as well without them. The rifled APFSDS rounds features some kind of anti-rifling jacket that stops the rounds spinning with the rifling in the barrel - so the rounds leave the barrel with either no spin, or a relatively low rate of spin. Google "APFSDS and Rifled" for more information. Megapixie 08:13, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

It is not possible to fire a HEAT round through a rifled barrel as the spinning of the round prevents the penetrative jet from forming when it impacts the target.

I don't understand where you got the figure of 1530m/s from(CR1??), because Challenger2's L30 was designed to be capable of being fired at much higher pressures than that of the old L11(CR1). Infact the performance of L30 is still secret and has never even been released. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.54.3 (talk) 18:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

It has a negative effect on penetration; nevertheless all postwar rifled tank guns had HEAT-rounds developed for them.--MWAK 18:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Yep, they just put a slip ring around it that will "absorb" most of the spin. Same thing with APFSDS

The reason that HESH rounds need rifling is due to the fact they are centrifugally armed. soldatuk@yahoo.co.uk

The fact that it hasn't got any fins would also be a show-stopper in a smoothbore. The smoothbores now use fin-stabilised HE-rounds, though, so the advantage of having HESH for the rifled is pretty much cancelled out.

It is worth noting that the Challenger 2 has the record distance for destroying an enemy tank in combat - over 5Kms (in the Iraq War). Acorn897 (talk) 18:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

off-road speed

the article mentions the on road speed of the challenger 2, but it does not mention the off road speed which in many ways is more important. i was under the impression the over rough terrain the challenger 2 was the fastest MBT in the world, but i could be wrong.

Pratj 23:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't tell what the offspeed road is - but I would have thought it unlikely that the Challenger 2 is the fastest simply because it weighs 62 tons - there are a lot of 40 to 50 ton tanks with similar powerpacks - see T-80, T-90 or 50 to 60 tons tanks with more power Leclerc, and 60 ish ton tanks with the same or greater power - i.e. M1 Abrams, Merkava (III).

The lighter tanks with similar or better hp/ton are probably going to be the fastest over true rough ground simply because they weigh less and are less likely to bog down (lower ground pressure). Megapixie 00:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Quoted figures of "off-road speed" don't mean much anyway. There isn't a single kind of off-road terrain, and I've seen no published standards on how to measure it consistently.

Power-to-weight ratio and ground pressure help determine an AFV's off-road performance, as well as the strength of its components. I think most modern MBTs have their top speed governed, to prevent excessive wear or failure of the drivetrain, suspension, and track. —Michael Z. 2006-08-04 00:20 Z

i know this is a crap source but i was watching re runs of the TV show top Gear in which he was being chased by a challenger 2 in a range rover sport. and he said that the challenger 2 was the fastest tank in the world over rough terrain.

Pratj 22:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

over some terrain yes, soft mud/grass i believe. but judging off-road performance from speeds taken at different tests in different countries is hopelessly inacurate. - steve

The C2 is the 2nd fastest tank over rough terrain, due to it's highly advanced hydro-gas suspension. The Leclerc takes 1st for the fastest off-road speed, it also uses hydro-gas suspension comparable to the British. There are two types of terrain the C2 would get beat on this area, 1/ very hilly terrain(power to weight ratio disadvantage) 2/ on a road(where tanks spend less than 10% of their time)

---

"Most heavily armoured"

It was previously stated on the Royal Army website that it was the most heavily-armoured tank in NATO, as it was always intended to be. It was (unoficially) designed to be a better version of the M1A2, and, in 198 out of 232 trials, it was. The Ministry of Defence has since changed their web-page and reduced the amount of history available about the Challenger 2 and, as such, I cannot offer proof any longer. 194.80.32.8 16:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Can somebody please provide a citation for this:

“ The Challenger 2 is the most heavily armoured western made tank ”

It's becoming slightly onerous to keep reverting rather questionable edits to a rather contentious assertion that has no supporting evidence when I can't tempt user 68.66.105.9, who seems to have the biggest problem with it, to discuss his/her changes.
—Chris (blather • contribs) 01:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

As a postscript, I've tracked down the initial assertion to an undocumented change made by an unregistered AOL user, so my inclination is that it probably should be removed...
—Chris (blather • contribs) 01:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

You see, I don't want someones elses opinion on whether or not someone thinks it's the most heavily armored tank. According to this site:

http://members.tripod.com/collinsj/protect.htm

The M1a2 sep is slighty better protected.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.66.105.9 (talk • contribs) 04:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Unfortunately, someone's personal website isn't a reliable enough source ("Personal websites, blogs, and other self-published or vanity publications should not be used as secondary sources"). However, since the original claim seems to have been rather arbitrary, I'm going to change it back to the original wording until some further evidence materialises.
—Chris (blather • contribs) 08:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I have yet to see some proof that the challenger 2 is the most heavily armoured western tank.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.66.105.9 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

As have I, which is why the article no longer claims that it is. I would be quite interested to find out one way or the other, though, if anybody knows anything more.
—Chris (blather • contribs) 18:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

That claim probably comes from the fact alot of online articles claim it is the best protected tank fielded by a NATO member. I dont know if this is true but going by its performance in Gulf war 2 (3 if you say iran/iraq war was gulf war 1) I would say it is likely to be true. It is much more durable than the abrahms variant the yanks are using there. There was a case of one being mobility killed, and then barraged by 30 something RPG-7VLs, a considerable number of RPG-22 warheads (cant remember which varient though) and 1 Russkie made ATGM and surviving (they were stuck for a while). It was then relieved by another platoon of challengers. I would have a look around the internet for more accurate info (The weapons that were fired on it I have remembered properly, just possibly not the amounts of them fired on it. I do know it was a bizzarely large amount though. When I saw about it on tv I was surprised it survived it all) but I cant be bothered.

I remember seeing a similar claims made during the Challenger 2 episode of the TV series "Mean Machines of War" shown on Channel 5 in the UK. Certainly the Challie 2 is widely credited as being the best protected tank in NATO, not least upon account of it's alledged use of the highly Classified "Dorchester" armour. Apparently this is an improved form of Chobham armour which has not (yet) been adopted by other nations. Getztashida 14:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

A contact in Scots DG, who shall remain nameless, informed me that the ATGM in question was a 3rd generation MILAN obtained from a WMIK vehicle captured from 3 Commando Brigade in southern Iraq. The "mobility kill" was in fact result of the driver reversing into a ditch/trench causing the tank to get thoroughly stuck. First assertion is unconfirmed fact (and not likely to be confirmed by MoD anytime soon), the second is made by crewmember in question from the abovementioned CR2 documentary. See Youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqaVIcUafgE (Part 1) - and subsequent parts.

Perhaps I can give some rough impression of the situation as regards the relative protection values. The early Challenger 1 was at the moment of its introduction certainly the best protected tank. After all it was basically still a Chieftain, complete with the Chieftain's cast armour; and added to this a very fat layer of Chobham. The M1 at the time had only a cheap alumina version of the Chobham, Burlington, as basically its only armour. So the Challenger was far better protected against KE-ammunition and considerably better against hollow charge attack. Now the original Leopard 2 equalled the Challenger 1 in KE-protection — but the Challenger 1 had inherited the old Chieftain trick of reclining the armour in a hull-down position giving it an extra 140mm and of course even without this its HEAT-protection was much better as the Leopard had no real Chobham.

Now today things have changed a lot. The M1A2 is far better protected than its forefather. However it is according to official sources equipped with a relatively cheap uranium mesh, which would have a mass equivalency of about two, whereas the Dorchester armour of the Challenger 2 is widely assumed to consist of an expensive titanium-tungsten system, which should have a mass equivalency of over three. The inevitable conclusion seems to be that the Challenger 2 is the better protected tank. Now the Leopard 2A5 also has a tungsten system, but instead of a Chobham outer layer it uses a spaced armour appliqué, which to the British mind is simply cheating — why, it is nothing more than air isn't it? So the Brit might well feel justified in thinking he has the best protected tank. Alas, an unexpected contender has in the meantime arrived: the French Leclerc. As its armour modules are a third thicker than those of the other tanks, its titanium system is superior to both Challenger and Leopard 2 against KE; so thick in fact it needs neither Chobham nor spaced armour to be safe against hollow charges.--MWAK 13:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately these things are difficult to quantify without getting varuiuos interesting guns and missiles to hand and actually testing them against tanks. the term "heavily armoured" doesn't really do modern armour systems justice - it presumably dates from the time when you could measure the armour proteciton on a ship or vehicle by how much it weighs. GraemeLeggett 14:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and even then it would not be easy to give an exact number with real meaning, as most weapons simply do not penetrate. So, as the joke goes, the protection equivalence value is "impenetrable" :o). In any case not less than 1400 mm against KE for the European types.--MWAK 09:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Mind if I ask where you got all that info from?

Yes. These are some seriously dubious assertions here. Kensai Max 03:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

WOW, I actually never thought that wikipedia will regress to that level. Accepting as reference fprado website, which references the website of some unknown person who estimated tank protection levels probably without any nowledge of tanks whatsoever. Good job there wikipedia. How can anyone claim that some tank is one of the most protected if noone knows how other tanks are protected, an information which is a classified data. Until wiki gets rid of those childish things, it will never be considered anything more than an opinion forum. And after that single RPG-29 penetrated Challenger 2 frontally, and through ERA, come on boys and girls, best protected? 99.231.51.82 (talk) 01:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)Pavel Golikov.

CRARRV / CHARRV

I have edited the article to reflect the proper terminology for the Challenger Armoured Repair and Recovery Vehicle (CRARRV). This is as the official abbreviation for the Challenger 2 is CR2. The CHARRV was the Chieftan ARRV, which still remains in use by some Specialist and Territorial Army Units, but is being gradually phased out. REME_Bod

Best protected?

According to http://fprado.com/armorsite/chall2.htm, "The Challenger 2 is the best protected tank in NATO". I'd include this, but not sure of the reliability of the source. Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.112.13.131 (talk) 15:34, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

Many other wikipedia articles use the FAS military analysts network as a source, however this page may be out of date as it says it was written in 1999 78.148.111.197 (talk) 11:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Update for "Operational use"?

Hello, today I found this note in the RPG-29 article, maybe it's worth incorporating:

"In 2007, British officials confirmed that an RPG-29 round penetrated the frontal explosive reactive armour (ERA) of a top-of-the-line Challenger 2 tank during an engagement in al-Amarah, Iraq.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-29 Link denoted with [2] is: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/13/nmod13.xml

Maybe some regular contributors to this article might update it if they find it's a noteworthy information.84.166.248.187 21:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

"Best protected" ERA-equipped NATO tank penetrated frontally by 105mm DC-HEAT with claimed penetration of only 750mm!! :-o So much for the "chobham invulnerability" myth. Latest generation western armor is soooo overrated. 195.98.64.69 01:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't be an idiot. Single Challenger 2 MBTs have taken dozens of hits from RPGs (including the RPG-29) in past engagements and drove off with little damage. Hell one Challenger 2 survived over 60 hits from mixed types of RPGs. An extremely lucky shot that managed to penetrate the ERA and the hull means very little. At worst there is a minor design flaw in the hull resulting in a weak point. Another possible explanation is that there was a flaw in the hull of this specific Challenger. This is just like that time a RPG-7V hit a weak point on the side of an Abrams and penetrated the hull. Notice that since this event no more Challenger 2s have been seriously damaged by RPG-29s. Don't you try to argue that Russian tanks have no weak points because with their production quality we know that is not true. No tank design is ever perfect anyway.

Western armor is not "soooo overrated." Chobham and Dorchester have been proven very effective. There are many examples of the Abrams taking multiple hits from RPGs and recoilless rifles and surviving. It has survived hits from the limited amount of high quality 125mm gun ammo the Iraqis had too. Russian armor is junk besides for their heavy ERA which still can be penetrated by the latest HEAT and KE ammo. ERA does not provide protection from multiple hits anyway. --68.118.179.186 22:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

1. Survivability per se (esp. after penetration) has nothing to do with armor quality/effectiveness (!). "...survived over 60 hits from mixed types of RPGs" - so what, there are incidents where elderly T-72s also took multiple RPG hits and survived - it was achieved because of functional (unlike 1st Chechnya campaign) ERA bricks and ammunition limited to carousel only (another western myth says that autoloader is the case of "russian tank exploding on any penetration" - the cause of trouble is not autoloader, but extra ammo stocked in fighting compartment). And even don't mention to me much weaker recoilles rifles.

2. I said only about latest (ie details still being unknown) armor as overrated. See, RPG-29 has only 750mm claimed penetration behind ERA, while Chally lower front hull is generally estimated (by western experts) being 860mm equivalent vs HEAT (and thats at perfect perpendicular angle of engagemet, I bet typical angles would be something like 15-40 degs, making for even stronger protection due to increase in LOS thickness). Plus lower front hull on Challenger 2 is plain simple straight plate without any weak spots, and I seriously doubt about any major flaws in such a simple object, it isn't cast steel armor after all. :-)

3. Btw, side non-penetrating hits don't tell much about armor (sides are weak, and probability of penetration is very angle-dependent in this case). But successful frontal penetration definitely means much. ;-)

4. Please enlighten me, what "high quality 125mm gun ammo the Iraqis had". I bet you mean just anything besides steel penetrators (and the same 1970s old stuff anyway). Modern russian tanks can withstand same iraqi rounds just as fine, but there is nothing to be proud of. And modern "high quality" russian APDSFS rounds are as good as the western ones (except for just a bit stronger US M829A3), and HEAT ammo is even better. And since one Challenger already had succesfully killed another, you can deduce the rest. ;-)

• The C2 that was hit on the blue on blue was at a distance of around 600m, the C2 was hit on the side of the turret, no tank can withstand a hit at this range and tell the tale........

Gee, does it mean that ultra-elite professional western tankers cannot distinguish visually very different newest western tanks and old eastern tanks @ mere 600 meters?! 195.98.64.69 17:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

They surely can. But fail 1 time out of 10000 ;-) B-2Admirer (talk) 10:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

5. Latest ERA is in fact somewhat "reusable" and can withstand a few hits, not just one. By the way, extensive use of ceramics in western armor has its own problems - it's prone to shatter on impact (even non-penetrating one) losing integrity (even though other, non-ceramic, layers will hold it in place), and also must be replaced/repaired in the workshop (if not factory) to restore original protection level. ERA bricks are much easier to "repair". IMO modular armor (ERA in particular) is the future of AFV protection.

6. There is no way to tell exactly what RPGs were fired on the tank, esp. to the crewmen in the heat of battle. And there aren't many RPG-29s in Iraq, only those smuggled across the border, unlike huge local stocks of older RPG-7s (besides British are stationed in calmest parts of the country, Abrams is not as lucky as Challenger). Attributing opponent success only to latest technology (while in the same time bashing same latest tech in case of his older tech failure) is a long tradition in the West - most laughable example which i remember was not long ago when russian sub suddenly popped up out of nowhere in the middle of NATO ASW exercise (!) asking to take care for a crewman suffering appendicitis; Western press of course reported about the undetected sub being latest and quietest Akula class, while in fact it was 1970s era Victor II, long time considered "very noisy, as all other russian junk" by the so-called experts (sorry for the offtopic). :-D 195.98.64.69 03:32, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• The RPG-29 Vampire that hit the C2 bounced of the floor and hit the belly of the tank......A lucky shot

You would be very surprised at what a small flaw in some important metal or ceramics could do. Also note how the only part of the article that claims the frontal armor was penetrated was that little side drawing. It may have easily have been the frontal side hull that was penetrated! That news source just seems to have guessed, and you know that the British press loves to bash military equipment right? They will gladly take a minor thing such as this and make it seem huge. Again note how since that date RPG-29s have done nothing serious to other Challenger 2s. In Lebanon despite the propaganda saying that all of the tanks destroyed were Merkava 4s some of the photos acually show those Merkavas being Magach 7s. Also most of the tanks that were disabled or destroyed were hit in the side or rear.

ERA is not reusable, once a panel is hit that panel is gone. While the rest of the ERA is fine and the panel or panels that were hit can be replaced once a panel is detonated it is gone. Yes repeated hits from heavy KE and CE weapons can break the ceramic plates but this problem is not unique to advanced Western composite armors. If the ERA is defeated and the tanks standard armor is hit but not fully penetrated on a Russian tank that armor is also going to need to be repaired to restore the original protection level. This applies to just about any tank although the latest designs with modular armor are easier to repair. These days the Russians rely primarily on heavy ERA for their protection and we rely on advanced composite armor sometimes with additional light ERA for our protection. Both seem impressive and unless World War III begins we won't know which is better.

Ah the Russians can be so stubborn, they think their planes are better, they think they tanks are better, and they think their subs are better among other things. Of course we think the same things about our own equipment unless your the media looking for a good story. That ASW event may have happened but there are plenty of embarrassing Cold War stories on both sides. We made a sport of seeing how long we could follow Russian subs without them noticing. :) 68.118.179.186 15:24, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Not the least of those embarrassing Cold War stories is a German amateur pilot illegally landing amidst the "impenetrable air defences of Moscow".212.98.170.119 (talk) 08:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

No, "Cold war stories" are about provocation with spy planes disguised as korean airliners and subsequent western media hysteria after they were shot down. But when Rust landed on Red Square, there was a political decision of much softer government not to shoot at him. That bastard Gorby chose to blame his opponents in the army and fire them instead. And then, judjing by 9/11, New-York and even Washington (Penthagon is a Defence Ministry for goodness sake!!) have absolutely NIL air defence, i suppose? 195.218.210.141 (talk) 16:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

1. There is more info on the net besides that article. And just how many RPG-29s (not RPG-7s) are in Iraq - who knows?

2a. As I wrote, latest generation ERA is reusable. It is not in general service yet, but already thoroughly tested and approved.

2b. Ceramic shatters @ very first, not "repeated" strong hits. Shattering is integral part of "defeating the projectile" process. With ERA, there is a good chance that fixed (& not easy to repair) armor will suffer only light damage (or none). Even more, on some armor schemes found on russian tanks stuck penetrators can actually add to protection level!

3. The problem is, western experts tend to compare the same systems existing on both planes/subs/vehicles/etc (stating that western counterparts are superior), happily omitting those systems which don't have western equivalent. In case of subs, while western sonars and computers may be superior, soviet/russian answer was lurking below kilometer in absolute silence, using trace detectors besides sonar, targeting rocket torpedoes onto unsuspecting gadgetry-filled western sub and be ready to outrun any return-fire torps. ;-) Just a simple example of my point. 195.98.64.69 03:26, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

One well-known russian "answer" was to target their own unsuspecting Kursk sub with their own torpedoes, and then try to blame it on the British and then Americans so that the whole world could have a good laugh. From time to time the ruskeez still try to do that. Seems like they are born with brains which have the logic parts permanently disabled. If an enemy could sneak into their territorial waters, destroy their best sub so that it didn't even have a chance to fire back, and then escape without being detected and/or leaving any trace of it's presense THEN how long would their fleet last in the event of an all out war with NATO? Probably just enough for a russian sailor to drink his last gallon of vodka :-) So please, sheesh about your subs. We've already seen it.B-2Admirer (talk) 12:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, was it official or i missed something? Even then it makes more sense than ramming own Defence Ministry with a drone plane (pretending it's "being boeing") and making it (another) feeble excuse to start killing "for democracy". :D

And of course i'm not going to question superb capabilities of US submarine and especially ASW forces; in fact, americans themselves are soooo confident in them - to the point of scrambling just Prowlers (!) for "interception" (LOL!!) when surprised (yet again) by buzzing russian strike planes - like those Kitty Hawk dudes did! Hence i'm pretty darn sure that "mighty US carriers" will definitely last longer in real conflict than "crappy russian subs"... yeah, much longer - for a whole two seconds perhaps!! :D 195.218.210.188 (talk) 21:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Clearly you aren't smart enought to understand what was said. There are hardly any doubts that the sub in question sank because of accident, but the fact is that some Russian journalists and even high-ranking military personel instead of just saying "shit happens" tried to put the blame on a mysterious foreing vessel which allegedly accidentaly collided with or deliberately sunk Kursk, thinking this would save the pride of Russian military, while in fact it would make them positively pathetic. As for the rest of your post, I'm sure here is a wrong place to discuss it, the right would be a good asylum. 212.98.170.119 (talk) 09:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Like WHAT was said? "TARGETED by own torpedoes"? And "journalists" - don't make me laugh; as for "high ranking military personnel", they only said there WAS foreign vessel which interfered illegally into the course of the moves - and no more. But most possible base for more sensational rumours perhaps was strange political activity right after the incident - like closed negotiations of unknown subject and US government giving Russia a very generous "loan" after that (and much later it turned out that this loan was effectively forfeit and probably never supposed to be paid back). 195.218.210.141 (talk) 16:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Can you trust everything on the internet? The basic design of ERA involves an explosive being detonated which is sort of a one shot deal. Unless you can stack several panels it is not really reusable. About the ceramics shattering it really depends on what is hitting the Chobham armor. A heavy KE penetrator will damage or break several ceramic tiles but you would need several hits in the same area before it becomes a real problem. Generally Chobham armor is more effective against CE weapons and when stopping those you don't have to worry about the ceramic tiles breaking. While a hit from a good sized APFSDS on Chobham armor does take plenty of time to repair new modular armor will make repairing and replacing the armor much easier in future designs and will provide other advantages. I don't know about Dorchester armor but other western armor such as that on the Leopard 2 is very effective against KE threats and can take many hits without the armor being weakened to any major extent.

One of the problems with relying on ERA for most of your tanks defense is that while it may normally stop a certain weapon there is a chance that it will fail and let that threat get by without much trouble. Then, if that tank's other armor is not up to the task you will lose an expensive MBT.

I don't feel like talking about subs right now but I think you are underestimating NATO submarine tactics. 68.118.179.186 01:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Someone here claimed that Challenger2 took 60 something or 30 something RPGs??? Where is evidence? One RPG-27 will not penetrate Challenger 2, that is trustworthy, but the only evidence of engagement of RPG-29 and Challenger 2 we have is the one when Challenger 2 came out penetrated. So, let's please not brag about how Dorchester and Chobhham proved itself? 1989 weapon penetrated 1993 newest british tank.

"Don't be an idiot. Single Challenger 2 MBTs have taken dozens of hits from RPGs (including the RPG-29) in past engagements and drove off with little damage. Hell one Challenger 2 survived over 60 hits from mixed types of RPGs."

We have yet to see proof of this.

The reference is in the article. I suggest you read it. And while advising people not to brag, it might be best if you withheld from bragging yourself? Just a thought. Geoff B 17:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Really When does the argueeing stop? Its like debating anything pointed out the flaws and advantages. No one is right. No one tank is THE best. Uber555 16:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Challenger 2 got frontally penetrated by RPG-29, russian anti-tan kinfantry weapon

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/13/nmod13.xml

Looks like russian made 1989 weapon defeated armor of a 1993 western made tank, which are supposed to be made "for quality". Do you know what it is called? Failure of a tank, when older RPG penetrates newer tank.

WEstern tank experts estimated Challenger 2's armor protection on hull at 1000 mm, while same experts estimated RPg-29 at 750 mm suggesting that russian made weapon will be a long way before penetrating Challenger 2, while it penetrated. Puts western experts in a bad position, looks like they overestimate the ratings for western tanks.

This has already been emtioned. Those expets might not have been wrong if it hit any sort of weak spot.

From reading the above link, the reactive armour didn't react, no system works 100% of the time 100% efficiently. Shit happens I guess, poor guy, respect to his bravery.

• The C2 that was hit by a rpg-29 was hit on the belly, the rpg29 bounced of the floor..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.44.126 (talk) 15:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Source? 195.98.64.69 17:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Some sources I have read put the lower front hull armor of the Challenger 2 at about 860mm against HEAT weapons. It may have been closer to 810mm but when you consider that the RPG-29 may have hit a weaker spot at a good angle (for the RPG) this seems about right. Awhile ago however I ran into another guy who claimed the RPG-29 "bounced" and hit the belly somehow. Also the turret armor on the Challenger 2 is more than twice as strong as the lower hull armor. Currently a new composite armor package is in development to replace the hull ERA. 99.162.178.224 (talk) 05:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

^^^The new armour package has been fully developed and is entering service, C2 also has new add-on armour package for the rest of the tank including greatly improved ied protection. C2 also has a countermeasure upgrade and a remote controlled turret mounted weapon platform. Pics here just copy and paste then remove brackets: (http)://img153(.)imageshack(.)us/my.php?image=chll2il8(.)jpg (http)://img263(.)imageshack(.)us/img263/6868/challenger2upgradedec20dj3(.)jpg (http)://img401(.)imageshack(.)us/img401/2638/challenger2upgradedec20iw3(.)jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.51.140 (talk) 13:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

In any case, there is no source whatsoever to that excuse that it bounced off. Also, according to the same site, protection at lower hull is 860 mm, and RPG-29 is estimated at 750 mm, so, anyway.... Also, as for new package, do you have any other links, because just pictures do not do the job. 99.231.51.82 (talk) 02:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)Pavel Golikov.

Are there any other sources to back up this claim? I mean it is the Telegraph after all... --86.151.75.55 (talk) 14:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Could we please stop this bounced off argument, it is next to physically impossible and is absolutely irrelevant. Also, frontal hull is in no way the weakest spot on a tank, as was claimed. 99.231.50.118 (talk) 07:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)Pavel Golikov.

Pictures

I seem to remember there being more than one image on this article, where have the rest gone? --Climax-Void ^{Chat or My Contributions}

Removed due to inappropriate licensing. We need free images. Chris Cunningham 07:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Any better pictures than the one thats up please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.10.204.128 (talk) 02:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above statements, the current picture is terrible, there must be a better one... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.28.131 (talk) 22:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not exactly the most flattering image... there must surely be a better one out there. 194.247.53.233 (talk) 22:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I found a better one and added it to the article template 8-) --Climax-Void ^{Chat or My Contributions}

Unsubstantiated claims by the manufacturer worthy of an encyclopedic article?

I think the following sentence diminish the encyclopedic value of this article as the source doesn't back up the claim with any data or facts:

"The manufacturer claims that it is the world's most reliable main battle tank."

The source contains this passage: "The world’s most reliable main battle tank, Challenger 2 has exceeded the most stringent reliability targets ever set by the UK Ministry of Defence and has completed a more rigorous reliability development programme than any other tank in the world."

Sorry, but this sounds like pure advertising and thus isn't worth mentioning IMO. If the claim was at least part of a slogan (like Carlsberg is "probably the best beer in the world" ;-) ) then its relevance would be debatable, but in this case it just sounds awkward.

I'm aware that the sentence is clearly expressed as the opinion of the manufacturer, but I believe this alone doesn't justify an inclusion. It's just POV or trivia unless there are other sources which bother to deliver some data.

I removed the sentence a few times (with short explanations in the edit summary) but it kept coming back. ;-) I would be interested in your opinions. 80.144.192.166 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Disagree - Leave the information in the article or take it to Rfc. The statement is factual and backed by a citation. MickMacNee (talk) 12:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

POV is not factual and the citation does not validate the claim. To mitigate the POV I left the information and added a factual statement backed up by a BBC citation. Source: "It has a good reputation for reliability, although it has experienced significant problems during military exercises in desert conditions." And by the way, there are lots of factual statements about the C2, good and bad. Do you want to include them all? This is an encyclopedia, not an advertisement. 80.144.192.166 (talk)

Where exactly do you think the BBC get's its information for its statement "has a good reputation for reliability"??? Do Autotrader do a section on tanks?MickMacNee (talk) 21:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Stay calm. There's a difference between "good reliability" (quite a few modern MBTs are reliable or they wouldn't be around in the field) and "world's best". If you check the source you will notice that it's not Jane's, but an advert directly from the manufacturer. Let's hope BBC doesn't blindly depend on that. :-) Many manufacturers advertise their products as the best in the world. Maybe we should add this vital information to all wikipedia articles in question. ;-) 80.144.226.99 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

There is also a difference between stating the claim has been made and including the claim as fact. You can add whatever properly sourced claim to any article you like if it is relevant, the factual statement that the claim has been made is not POV. Reliability claims for a tank are hardly trivial. MickMacNee (talk) 22:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know the claim wasn't camouflaged as a fact in the article, and I already stated that I'm aware of that. But that's not the point. This should be an encyclopedic article and not a collection of adverts. A marketing statement by the manufacturer is not a "properly sourced claim" IMO, unless it's validated by data. And I think it's POV because of its arbitrariness and the advertising nature of the source. I agree that reliability facts are not trivial, but (unsubstantiated) adverts are. I see your point but I doubt that adding any factoid we can find about the C2 will increase the quality of the article. 80.144.226.99 (talk) 22:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Friendly-fire incident

This article states that the attacking tank's second round entered the open commander's hatch and killed two tank crew members. While this is technically true, it makes it look like the other two crew members who survived were inside the tank when it was hit, when infact they were thrown out of the tank by the first round fired by the engaging tank which was a near miss. 91.153.26.217 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Editing mistake

I edited a part of the service history to state that the Challenger 2 served in the Gulf War. Sorry about that! --86.151.75.55 (talk) 14:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

classified ?

if infomation is not known dont say it's classified —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.124.195 (talk) 18:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

120mm rifled ammunition production lines closed?

A recent article in the Mail on Sunday's "Live" magazine, (Nov 15 2009) "The Machinery of War" about the revival of ammunition making in the UK, (after the Treasury persuaded the MoD that small arms and ammunition were commodities that could be traded, like wheat, and didn't need UK production. Sadly, bad people sell you dud rounds) states that the BAe (ROF) plant at Galscoed is making "120mm tank ammo" in addition to 81mm mortars (an awful lot) and 105mm, 155m and naval 4.5" shells. New production facilities are going in shortly.

However, since there is no mention of a new 120mm production line, and the old one is for the 120mm rifled rounds, one is forced to conclude that production of the old ammunition has restarted at some point. This may make some sense: the ramp-up of production in mortar and artillery rounds must have transformed the economics of restarting 120mm ammunition production, and this is probably not the time to tell the Treasury that all the tanks need new guns, simply to enable the MoD to buy German ammunition in a deep recession and keep a UK plant in mothballs!

The friendly fire incident, above, suggests that the HESH round is lethal enough for the time being -if fired against enemy tanks. It would be the HESH round and the propellant charges that Glascoed would make. Penetrators might be bought in and packaged appropriately.

One suspects that the long term thinking may be towards a smaller gun, with a hyper-velocity missile as the main killer of enemy heavy armour. Thales are working on a Starstreak derivative, to be launched by everything from small vehicles, through helicopters, to UAV drones. This combination would allow a tank to hide from air attack, whereas ever huger 120mm or even 140mm guns, not only increase the tank's radar signature, but also stop it squeezing into discreet gaps.