Talk:Cham Albanians: Difference between revisions

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Albanau, if you object to this form of the article, please discuss it here. It is not acceptable, among other things, to refer to provinces of independent countries as though they rightfully belonged to another independent country. Chronographos 15:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It wasen't me I allways use my account. However Chronographos what you wrote is clearly not NPOV.

Çamëria (or Chameria) is the name sometimes used by Albanians to refer to the Greek province of Epirus. The area probably was home to an ethnic group of Albanian origin and Muslim faith, the Chams. The Chams are believed to have fled to Albania during, and immediately following, World War II, probably because they had been persecuted by Greek Resistance guerilla groups fighting against the Nazi occupation army, on the belief that Chams had cooperated with the Albanian-launched invasion of Greece by the Mussolini fascist regime in 1940, and had continued cooperation with the Nazi occupiers. Greek censuses mention no Muslim presence in Epirus since 1951; they do not include linguistic data.

Albanau 14:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The article proper should just redirect to Epirus, the region's continuous name from time immemorial until now. Your insistence to be using an Albanian name for a province of Greece is rather telling. Chronographos 15:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that it should be redirected to Çamë!... one more thing, Çamëria is according to Albanian understanding a region in northwestern Greece, so there is nothing wrong with this. Albanau 15:25, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Corrected reference to "under Greek influence" in 4th century. Removed refernce to "Cham Christians". Acerimusdux 17:08, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Albanau's suggestion that this article should refer to the Chame people and not to Epirus. I think this is a fair compromise. Acerimusdux, do you agree as well? Chronographos 17:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Not entirely. Since the region is at least corresponds roughly with what is known as ancient Epirus, I think this needs to at least be mentioned, with a prominent link to the main article on Epirus for more information. I don't think a simple redirect is informative enough, though. When this conflict over "Chams" arose on the Albanians page, I had no idea what it was about and had to do a bit of research. Wikipedia at that point was of no help at all. There ought to be room for an article of some sort that at least outlines what this is about, with as much a NPOV as possible. I also don't believe Albanau ever siad the article shouldn't mention Epirus. He simply said there was nothing wrong with it mentioning Chameria. If you want to include all of the information in the article on Epirus, they could certainly be combined, with the name Albanian name Chameria mentioned prominently in bold at the top of that article, and a section added including the history of the expulsion of the Chams followng WWII, but I think a seperate article will be more convenient for readers.

I also think the page title should comply with wikipedia conventions which say "Title your pages using the English name, if one exists, and give the native spelling on the first line of the article. If the native spelling is not in the Latin alphabet, also provide a Latin transliteration. Only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form." So the appropriate name is "Chameria", with the native spellings following (maybe in parenthesis) on the first line. No one will find this article as it is - no one is going to do a search on English Wikipedia for a word using non-standard English characters.Acerimusdux 20:00, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the article may mention that "Chameria" is the name Albanians sometimes use for Epirus, properly linked. I also have no objection to describe what may or may not have happened to the Chams, provided both sides of the story (Albanian, Greek, or what have you) are given. In other words, as long as NPOV is adhered to, I will have no problem. Chronographos 20:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting thing about (modern) Greek arguments is that different rules always apply to Greeks and non-Greeks. So, it is unacceptable to use alternative names for territory in other countries? What do Greeks call Istanbul? Constantinople, I think. Or why do Greeks call southern Albania "NOrthern Epirus"? Basically, Greek people need to accept common rules for everyone, rathern than trying to cheat the rest of the world with fake historical arguments.

Disgrace

This artice is a disgrace! There's more POV here than in the Nazi mysticism and Holocaust denial articles put together. There's petty nationalist POV here from the Greek perspective and from the Albanian perspective. This should be remedied as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups Template and above all, RELIABLE SOURCES should be found. You cannot make up things as you go along... Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One problem here is whether WikiProject Ethnic Group applies here, as these people are Ethnic Albanians and identify as such. Are there any similar articles on similar minorities which we could copy? Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You're right there. It is a highly problematic article and full of various POVs. I don't know enough about the subject to make the necessary corrections, however. --Damac 08:18, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To start with, I'm going to move this article to Cham Albanians; it's the best thing to do. Albanian diacritics should not be used in accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), and Cham on its own may cause confusion with the Cham people of Eastern Asia. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good start, Rexhep Bojaxhiu

Well done on improving this article. I was wondering if you could provide more concrete references for some of the figures mentioned in the article, such as the numbers of victims murdered by Zervas's troops and, in particular, the claim that there are 200,000 Chams living in Greece today. --Damac 22:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The 200,000 Chams living in Greece comes from the UNPO Website. The UNPO also say that there are 280,000 Vorioipirote Greeks in Albania. Those figures probably are the absolute maximum though. The Albanian authorities claim that there are 36,000 Greeks in Albania, and the Greek authorities claim that there are no Chams in Greece, but only Albanian immigrants which they say number over 500,000. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 14:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The numbers of the victims of the EDES come from the MOD pdf. I'll copy-paste the relevant parts here soon, but I can't open it now (the computer I'm using now doesn't support PDFs). I'll do it later today. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 14:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have to - I have added it to the article. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 17:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This article is a discrace.

In my humble opinion this article is a discrace. It is really funny to see people originated from the former terror-state of communist-atheist Albania to accuse the Greek state of reducing or rather exterminating any minorities' democratic rights concerning either their national identity or their religious origination & beliefs. I must remind you that Greece respected its commitments reffering to the muslim minority of Thrace event though the turkish state depressed or rather anihilated the analogous Greek minorities of Constantinople and of Imvros and Tenedos. Never in my life (living in Greece) ever heard of such thing as a Cham minority. I am definately certain that even if such a minority existed in Epirus they would certainly and by all means be extremenly happy living in Greece than in Hoxha'a Albania, all these decades. And it's an irony to hear for depression of the muslim religious beliefs from residents of a state that for 50 years forbided every aspect of religious life in its realm. The people rumbling these nonsense are so distracted that even speak of an Albanian minority of 700,000 people in Greece, including all these hungry economic refugees that found shelter in our democratic society and created happy lives for them and their families here the same time that Italians threw them back to the sea before even reaching their land. It is one thing dreaming of a "Great Albania" and another thing trying and feeding your less-than-4-million-people starving from hunger within Europes boundaries. Enough is enough chams and other pittiful people.