Talk:List of Sengunthars

Some very bad mischief. The royal houses of Chola dynasty has no relation to this community. Please refrain from typing wrong information. Veerabagu thevar is not sengunthar caste. Why did you leave others like ayyanar, muruga, anjenaya, sarasvati, vishnu ? At this rate please also claim Obama is Sengunthar in america, Osama is sengunthar in Afganistan, Schumacher is sengunthar in germany, jacki chan is sengunthar in hong kong. thank you.

The legend connecting veeravagu thevar and sengunthar is their weapons(spear&dagger).such myths regarding the origin of this community since the time of 11th century

other myths regarding origin of other communities

BhoomaDevi created Velaalar

Vishwabrahmins descended from five sons of Lord Vishwakarma

etc...

chieftains under chola Emperor

Chieftains(thalaivan) and kings(kurunila mannar) of Chola dynasty were from velaalar and sengunthar communities who were the dominant people of chola nadu during 11th century —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaikolamudali (talk • contribs) 07:04, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

haiyo haiyo! phoolan devi created velaalar and viswabrahmins descended from lord viswakurma. You cannot include based on fiction and mythology. orey comedy ma. what is this angin varman, mangi varman ? i think you slept when your paati told that part. his name is agni varman. agni for fire. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasisekar (talk • contribs) 00:39, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

it's a real comedy from you(pre-christian era which you claimed in that page). can you quote a single source saying veeravagu(a legendary character) is a kallan or its sub-castes. if you can, the legendary part will be removed in this page. Go and read Kantha puranam first. its Angin vanman not agni as you claim. these are not fictional works. Legendary characters have been included in wikipedian pages-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legendary_early_Chola_kings

Don't make silly removal of chieftain names. online source is given if you suspect they are not sengunthars. Reference books are clearly mentioned.thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaikolamudali (talk • contribs) 07:37, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

ikkada choodu Senaithalaivar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senaithalaivar, http://books.google.com/books?id=2SkbAAAAIAAJ&q=Senaithalaivar&dq=Senaithalaivar, http://www.senaithalaivarmatrimony.com/ and Paraiyans http://books.google.co.in/books?lr=&cd=17&id=wZI9AAAAMAAJ&dq=virabahu+descent&q=virabahu+#search_anchor Senaithalaivar, Sengunthar and Paraiyans all three claim him as their own. The only explanation is that all three groups elevated him to a demi-god status and cooked some nice story to fill in their history. Some nice halwa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasisekar (talk • contribs) 05:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

so you too joining the race along with these 3 communities in claiming the mythical character of veerabahu

) .Atleast change AGNI VARMAN(your own character) to ANGIVANMAN. thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaikolamudali (talk • contribs) 07:15, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I did not invent Agnivarman. ada nesamma http://www.dlshq.org/download/shanmukha.htm Sasisekar (talk) 04:43, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Either it would be a printing mistake or Swami Sivananda would have put a different story. The authentic kantha puranam is here [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaikolamudali (talk • contribs) 15:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I read the tamil version. No, it is not a printing mistake. When I was searching for more links i came across something else. The tamil version is only an interpretation by kachiappa sivachariar of the original skanda purana from sanskrit (vyasa). it was only written in 15th century. so i think it might be agnivarman in sanskrit. sivachariar changed a few things like he included devayanai (indra's daughter) as murugan's wife. but in the original version, murugan gets married to deva-sena, that is indra's army. he is called the commander of indra's army. but i will try to find the sanskrit version to ascertain this. Sasisekar (talk) 04:42, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Good job. when u come across a single word such as virabahu in skanda puranam of Sanskrit, Hindi it's done. Musukunda cholan's name is potrayed in chola paintings but not in inscriptions. High chances of him being a mythical character. Even if he had lived, it would be before 3000 years as claimed in another page containing Legendary Chola Kings, when castes were not formed

When it comes to Virabahu, it's even worse. He's purely a mythological character. Even though some castes claim him as their legendary progenitor of theirs when castes were formed, it's sengunthar who claimed him as their ancestor as early as 12th century(in the poetical work eeti ezhubathu) and in subsequent literary works. I doubt any mention of the name Virabahu before 12th century in any of literary works.

Now that, we can infer Virabahu,Chitravalli[2](daughter of Virabahu, who was married to Musumuka Chola(whose name was changed to musukunthan thence) were purely mythical. Including the mythical characters and claiming it to be pre-christian s a funny mischief —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaikolamudali (talk • contribs) 10:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

No but flipping chola to pandiyar in the list page counts. Ithu poyattam. Why can't you wait, i told I will ascertain. You are speaking as though Ottakoothar introduced murugan and others to us. namma thenisai thendral deva mathiri , he has only copied from other works [3] and kantha puranam since eeti elupathu is dated in 13th century and most people date kandha puranam in 12th century. I will give the benefit of the doubt saying eeti elupathu might have also been in 12th century. But Kalinkatuparani also mentions these characters and it is in the 11th century[4] during the reign of Kulotungan I well before ottakoothar work. As for no castes in the pre christian era; maybe sengunthar was born around that time but Maravar, kallar were there during the pre-christian era. We are as old as the land itself, that is why the saying Mara-tamizhan. so dont jump the gun.thank you. Sasisekar (talk) 06:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

ur arguments are weak and contradictory. I didn speak about Lord Muruga's introduction. It is well known that Muruga was portrayed as God by the people of kurinji in Sangam literature.

Koothar was born in late 11th century and was a court poet of four Chola Emperors starting from Vikrama Chola(1118 AD). He ended his life when Rajadhiraja Chola II (1163–1178) was ruling, well before 1200 AD. So Eeti ezhubathu was written in 12th century(not 13th century for sure). First u dated kantha puranam to 15th century and now to 12th century. kachiappar belonged to either 13th or 14th century(not 12th century)

In Kanthapuranam, Virabahu is a mythical figure and has no caste affliation whereas in Eeti ezhubathu, Virabahu is portrayed as a legend and as Sengunthar.

I did not say Koothar was the fisrt to introduce the concept of super-natural human viravagu but i doubted if Viravagu was mentioned in early literary works

Jayamkondar did not mention Veeravagu or chithiravalli in kalingathuparani. Insted he says a name Ikkuvagu in Naradhar varalaaru(a part of kalingathuparani)

The kalinga war-I is dated as 1094 AD and Kalinga War-II as 1100 AD. Jayamkondar would have completed his masterpiece in 110X AD(so this work also 12th century) but obviously before Eeti ezhubathu

Castes were formed distinctly only after Sangam period. There were no Varnas(Aryan imposition) and people belonged to 5 different lands. there were no mentioning of kallar/maravar/thevar during Valluvar's period(31 BC-XX) and before. Even in 12th century, other caste persons had thevar after their name. For example, Arulmozhi thevan alias Sekkilar is a Velaalar.

Social groups of 5 different lands in Sangam literature were Kuravar(Kurinji), Ayar(Mullai), Uzhavar(Marutham), Barathar(Neithal) and Eyinar(Palai)

Of the above, Kuravar, Uzhavar and Eyinar splitted into many castes. Ayar (also known as Edaiyar) and Barathar (also known as Paravar) are the castes existing since Sangam till today

Reply on my talk page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaikolamudali (talk • contribs) 06:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Kalingaatuparani features the characters [5]. Kandha puranam is dated late 11th to early 12th century [6]. Kanchiappar lived between 10th and 12th centuries[7]. Vellalar simply copied Kallar name in 12th century but Kallar were there even in Sangam times. Kallar and Maravar inhabited Palai as well[8]. Ottakoothar is said to have sung the poem after repeated pleas from the soldiers who were campaigning for social mobility. Read this book [[9]. No caste is mentioned. This version [10] contains additional sentences that introduce the sengunthar caste. When Ottakoothar wrote the poem they were just soldiers, then senai thalaivar, sengunthar and parayar were born. To be fair some of the chiefs you have added in the page could very well belong to Senai thalaivar and paraiyar caste. I think they are called nesavu paraiyar or koliya paraiyar. thank you. Sasisekar (talk) 04:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Read well before u post. Viravagu and Chittiravalli are not mentioned in Kalingathuparani as i told before. The information is not correct in that book "Thyagaraja cult.." (Its given as in 6:192 the whim about Chittiravalli is recorded. But it wasn't).

In 8:188, it is given as "one Ikkuvagu's son battled like thousand eyed elephant vehicled Indira with those who quarelled with him and won the battle". I reckon he was trying to say about Ikshvagu whose name is mentioned in sanskrit puranas

Kachiappar lived when there was no Later cholas' reign. Had he lived during their rule in Kachi(which was under cholas' control during medieval chola and later Chola period), he would be bestowed with great honours for his precious work. He lived during 14th century[11] [12] and his disciple is a Sengunthar named Kuganeriyappa Navalar[13] [14] who lived around 15th entury

The sengunthar caste is mentioned in 8th century Tamil Dictionary Diwakaram[15][16] and in sangam age[[17]. The names of these castes would be mentioned in later sangam age. It was only those 5 social groups which were prevalent in early sangam works

Sengunthar were also known as senaithalaivar or senapati(commander-in-chiefs) during chola period[18]. Elaivanigar(betel-leave sellers) of the modern century use this name of Senaithalaivar and they weren't warriors. They were traders

The Tamil castes were upwardly mobile after the Kalappirars were thrown out of sovereign and when Medieval Cholas came to power. So there wasn't any campaign for social mobilty.

History behind Eeti-ezhubathu Koothar praised the greatness of many cates except for his own caste as he thought it wasn't good to praise his own group. Sengunthars were furious at him as he did not accept their request to praise their bravery. They decided to kill the veteran poet.he came to know of it, fled away and sought the help of a puvanagiri king. The Puvanagiri King knowing of their rage challenged Sengunthars to prove their bravery by offering 1008 heads and then Koothar would write Eeti-ezhubathu. So they did and koothar wrote it in the court of Rajaraja II(Source: Eeti ezhubathu, kalipporubathu)[19]

When did Velaalar copied Thevar name?Any valid source? I can also cite one Thiruthaka thevar(vanigar of Jain religion)[20] who did not belong to the modern thevar caste —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaikolamudali (talk • contribs) 06:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Out of Context

[21]Koneriappa's disciple ship is questioned. Kandha puranam was written in late 11th/12th century. We seem to be differing on a number of things. So let's hack this one thing at a time. But First things first. Will you keep quiet if I said that Kaikolar were only making shirts, saris, baniyan and selling it? So dont take the glory from the Senai talaivar. You are also taking some things out of context. Senai talaivar means commander and senguntar also means soldiers which is different from the castes. Next, yes some senguntar were senai talaivar. But they do not belong to the senai talaivar caste. All senai talaivar (commanders) do not belong to senai talaivar caste too. Try and understand why 3 castes claim the same story and what ottakoothar was trying to do: How were castes formed?

Imagine you and I work as developer-lead for an IT company like infosys. Say there are 18 other developer leads in the same company bringing the total to 20. Each developer-lead has his own team of developers under him. None of us belong to any caste and none of us are related. Being a developer is our profession. Now over the course of time by forming marriage alliances we split into 3 castes: I along with my team and 4 other developer-leads (inlcuding their teams) marry into each other's family and form our customs. We call ourselves "Programmers"(equate this with paraiyar). You along with your team and with 4 other developer and their teams form your own caste called "Developer"(equate this with senguntar). The 10 remaining developer-leads without their teams form a caste and call themselves "team lead" (senai talaivar). You and I are developer-leads but our caste is not team leads. I am a developer by profession but my caste is not "Developer". My caste is programmer and I am not related to you. Now if I write a poem about developers (not developer caste) and give them a divine origin, say I sing a song relating all of us to Christ or one of the apostles who lived about 2000 years ago. Do you see how unreal this is? Ottakoothar was trying to give these soldiers an identity. This does not mean they were poor.

Next, all castes were not formed on profession and neither did they all originate at the same time. This has nothing to do with aryan varna or caste superiority. Maravar, for example were there long before anyone else. Their classification as a caste is like sakas. Maravar tribe features all over the sangam literature. Read this [22]-What does the book say? It says, Agamudayar and kaikolar were not a caste prior to the 10th century. The first use of Kaikolar as a caste name occurs only in 14th century in kanchipuram. They were formed (forming marriage alliances and customs like i said above) happened during ottakoothar's team between 11th and 14th century. He was trying to give those soldier's an identity. How did he know about Musukundan who lived 2000 yrs ago? Even Jayamkondar wrote abot Musukundan and Iskvaku (he was probabaly tracing the lineage)? How did he know abt iksvaku and musukundan? What is Mususkundan'real name? Should've tried calling him musukundan(monkey-face) when he was alive, pera solli mudikaruthukulla talaiya vangiruppaan. So due credit should be given to senai talaivar and parayar for they have spilled blood as well.Sasisekar (talk) 07:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Terintha Kaikkola padai

Kaikkolars were distinct community forming the Therintha kaikkola padai(well known kaikkola battalion). Elaivaniar and paraiyar were not a part of it. Kaikkolar was a weaving caste before that and were mentioned in later sangam literature(source already given). They were militarised only during 8th century

There were no evidences stating Elaivaniar and paraiyar were in the kaikkola battalion as you claim

Adi Diwakaram

The fourteenth century origin story of that author is completely wrong. Kaikkolars were mentioned before ninth century in Adi Diwakaram, a Tamil Dictionary by Sendan Diwakarar. It reads as "செங்குந்தப் படையார் சேனைத் தலைவர் தந்து வாயர் காருகர் கைக்கோளர்" This clearly states that they were both weavers and warriors. These names do not apply to elaivaniar and paraiyar.

• [23]
• [24]

Eeti ezhubathu

The uniqueness of Eeti ezhubathu is attributed to kaikkolar and comes from the fact the poet mentioned the Mudaliar title used by Kunthars/kaikkolars in one stanza which was/is not the title of Elaivaniar and paraiyar

In ezhupezhubathu(sequel of eeti-ezhubathu by the same poet) and kaliporubathu, compiled by Kulothunga Chola-III, the 1008 kunthars (who gave their heads) had been clearly mentioned as kaikkolar and Mudali. The descendants of their families are still known as sengunthars

There were no evidences Paraiyar and Elaivaniar were using kunthams(Daggers) and being addressed as Sengunthars

Panar/paraiyar

Paraiyar are a distinct community since sangam age. Pulaiyar kulam has a long history

Sources:

• They were mentioned in Sangam literature

[25] [26] [27]

• Nandanar (Nayanmar) was a Paraiyar

[28]

• Poetess Auvaiyar, contemporary of Ottakoothar was also a Paraiyar

• They were also known as panar

[29]

No references were mentioning them as soldiers/senai talaivar/regiment persons of Chola kingdom during the period of 8th to 13th century. Simply claim as descendants of Viravagu(without any literary evidence) does not make them sengunthars

Elaivaniar

Elaivaniar have alternate names such as senaikudaiyan(சேனைக்கு உடையான்) and Senaithalaivar but there were no evidences that they were commanders & senai thalaivars of Chola army. Do u have any source supporting them being Dagger experts(Sengunthar)?

Senapati/Senai thalaivar of cholas

Senapati and Senai thalaivar of cholas were from Kaikkolar and not from paraiyar and Elaivaniar

Sources: [30]

[31]

[32]

[33]

[34]

Musukunthan

Whether this Chola king existed was questionable. He was potrayed only in Chola frescos and not in inscriptions. There is already one section of Velaalars by the name Musukuntha Velaalars already creating legend behind the name [35]

Kachiappar's period

Some modern scholars were definite that he belonged to 17th century and was a contemporary of Andhaga kavi veeraragavan [36]. I still support only the later part of 14th century(1350-1420) with the above three links i had already given

Viravagu

I did not say he was a real character. It was just written to praise the sengunthars by comparing them to mythical Viravagu. --Kaikolamudali (talk) 07:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)