Talk:Catharism

There should be no problem in the merging of the two articles. But i do differ with JHK on the point that the word "albigensians" is purely geographical. True it is geographical insofar as it refers to the town of Albi, but it also refers to the crusade by the same name. Let not Pope Innocent's Magum Opus go completely unacknowledged.arunvenkat

Cathars are albigensians. Albigensians is a geographical name. Unless anyone objects, I'll combine both under Cathars, and fix links to Albigensians = Cathars. I'll leave this up for a day or so befor changing.JHK

• I think that would work well. Note that in searches, there have been references to Cathar, Cathars, Catharist, Cathari... oy! -- April

• • I do not think the Albigensian artical should be merged with the Cathar article. Please click on 2.1 below for more comment on this. C.D.W. **

Should we advertise books quite so blatantly?

I am all for including the ISBN numbers with books we list as further reading, or references... But including an image of the cover right after the listing? I dunno. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 00:46, Dec 12, 2003 (UTC)

The answer to the question is NO and I promptly removed that image. Nixdorf 17:40, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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removed from the article:

"["Cathar" derives from "cat"] which they were supposed to sexually abuse during their ceremonies"

That doesn't sound real. If you had a sect, would you name it after the animal you'd abuse ? :)

Anyway, if anybody get a good reference on "cat abuse" by the cathars, I'll put it back. Bogdan 11:11, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Cathar is widely known to have been derived from the greek Katharos for Pureness - and the Cathar were called that either reverentially or mockingly because of their supposed or actual purity. They usually called themselves simply "Christians" and many of their leaders were known as the Perfecti - the Perfect. They were accused of many forms of divergence and perversity by those who oppressed them, but in my many years of studying them and the oppressions against them, this (to my memory) is the first I have heard of any claims that they were called that because of "Cat abuse" —Kalki 20:13, 2003 Dec 20 (UTC)

The OED does not know that derivation at least. Probably the idea is just a joke by someone. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 20:51, Dec 20, 2003 (UTC)

I take that back. The story that Cathars are named after the cat ("cattus") is real. That is it is a genuine slander propagated against them at least in Germany. The slander mentioned by Malcolm Lambert in his book The Cathars appears to be that some opponents claimed that cathars "kissed a cat", but that it was only one form of a whole range of similar accusations, so in that context I would not say that even the more strongly put accusation is not totally implausible.

Thats exactly right, the Cathars were asscoiated with cats and animal abuse, more importantly, accused of satanic rituals, by the Roman Church. Its most likely this was just another of the overly ridiculous claims made against them, but it did stick and further propagated the Cathar name --drmike 12:32, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

The key here is though, that it is a calculated slander against them, and not an even semi-serious etymology. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 07:21, Dec 21, 2003 (UTC)

Completely agrre with above point. There is no serious etymology here --drmike 23:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a Latin phrase in the beginning of this article ("Hos nostra germania catharos appellat") and I think it would be helpful if someone translated it. -Branddobbe 02:25, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)

Rough translation: "Those that are in Germany (or by Germans) called the cats." -- Euthydemos 02:14, July 15, 2004 (UTC)

Many modern-day Christians, as well as folks of other Faiths, have a fascination with Cathars, although, having read Wikipedia's story on the subject, I have difficulty understanding why, most particularly the exploration of their beliefs and practices... might there still be Cathars "around"? If so, I'd like to know what attracted them to the Faith, or what keeps them observing it....--XXtraPrince 18:31, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Noteworthy is that cats had been identified with heresy before, and thus a slander was still more effective.

Does this page need editing for neutrality?

I realize that the bulk of the article comes from the 1911 Britannica, which I wouldn't expect to be neutral on the subject of Christian heresies. But it's 2004 now, and the continual reference to "heresy", "heretics", and so on in the text grates on me. Is it worthwhile to attempt a rewrite in order to accomplish a little more neutrality on the subject? -- joXn 23:54, 2004 Aug 26 (UTC)

The argument above appears to have been rejected. Just in case, though, let me add my comment: the word "heresy" is like the word "rebel". If you win, you are a "saint" or "revolutionary hero". If you lose, you are a "heretic" or "rebel". There's no judgement implied of the beliefs involved; "heretic" in European history is a political term, meaning "on the outs with the Catholic Church." Jberkus 06:14, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes I think this a good idea - after all, the sects that the Roman Church regarded as heretics all regarded the Roman Church as an heretical sect - and I can't see any reason to favour one Christian sect over any other.

By the way, on the question of the etymology of the word Cathar - it has to be significant that the word was invented by the Roman Church - this makes the Greek etymology (pure) unlikely since the writers in the RC Church were consistently hostile. It is known on the other hand that Cathars in northern Europe were referred to as cat worshippers. It is also significant that kissing cats' backsides was one of the standard callumnies, like buggery, cited against enemies of the church. It was used against witches and the Templars. For more see the cathar section of my website www://languedoc-france.info.

IMO even if the 1911 Britannica was far from neutral on the subject of Christian heresies. The Cathars were so far from any contemporary Christian church today that it hasn't any importance today. Of course the article should be updated according to what conteporary historians think. But being French (and thus mainly under Catholic influence about my understanting of Chistianism) I believeve that the 1911 Britannica was much more balanced about the Cathars than any French source until -at least 1945- 1945. Ericd 22:49, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Stephen Shea's book (which I've added to the bibliography) spends a whole page discussing whether the term 'heresy' can be applied to Catharism, and concludes 'If the Cathars can't be called heretics, we should just delete the word [heretic] from our dictionaries. In the text I use the term in the sense of dissent, not depravity'. I agree with that. --Townmouse 22:03, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I still do not think it is good enough for a modern Encyclopedia. Either properly define the term at the beginning, or (better) fix the text. Wizzy 09:42, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)

I deleted the statement saying how terrible it was, due to the fact it didn't say WHO considered it terrible. Did commoners of the RC believe it was terrible? Northern French nobles? Yes, you'd probably be hard-pressed to find someone who didn't think it was terrible today, but we're also taught not to judge the past based on today's morals. I've just gotten into the habit of explaining why I delete something if I'm not re-wording it.--John Lynch 16:10, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

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   I VOTE NOT TO MERGE ALBIGENSIAN ARTICLE

I do not think that the "Albigensian" article should me merged with that of "Cathar". When most people refer to Albigensians they are referring to the later branch of Cathars that was much less indoctrinated with Gnosticism. This later branch became more and more Christian in its beliefs as it neared its extinction by the Inquisition. As a result many of them merged with the Waldensians who paved the way for the protestant reformation. While this article is very rough and needs cleaned up I believe it is important that it remain as a separate article. I have some important historical information that I intend to add to it later. Not only encyclopedic and history references but also pertinant information I gathered while studying the Waldensian movement while I was in Piedmont Italy. I had access to many unpublished historical documents while there (which I photocopied). This March I am going to Germany to gather more information and later I intend to go to Languedoc France where the Cathar movement once thrived. Fredrick Coneybeare, Gibbons, Moreland, Giorgio Tourn, Emilio Comba, and especially Marvin Arnald are historians that can shed much unbiased light on these early sects.---------- C.D.W. January, 30, 2006

With any sensibly expressed reservation like those, no one will want to rush to merge these articles. We await C.D.W.'s edits with pleasure. --Wetman 04:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I will be returning from the Languedoc area of France in April at which time I will begin adding the abovementioned information.-------------C.D.W. February, 17, 2006

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I would not be so concerned with any percieved etymological weakness in deciding that the term cathars is derived from cattus, instead I would look to the linguistic and metaphorical styles of the time for confirmation. So, we have the lamb of god, the sheppard with his flock of sheep the dove of peace etc all as being good. In contrast we have the little foxes, determined to prey upon the flock of the lord, the evil serpent and, the witches' cat. The point is that these symbols, already in use, would have been well known and understood by the contemporary audience, and so to aid the demonization of a purportedly heretical sect what better way than to associate them by name with an existing demonic image. The etymology may be weak but to my mind it does seem to fit with the way things were at the time. Smileyc 13:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Bogomils = Paulicians?

"Their doctrines have numerous resemblances to those of the Bogomils, and still more to those of the Paulicians, with whom they are also sometimes connected." The entry for Paulicians is a link to Bogomils. According to that entry, the terms are synonymous. --Townmouse 22:03, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And another query: We have In 1147, Pope Eugene III sent a legate to the affected district in order to arrest the progress of the heresy. The few isolated successes of The Abbot of Clairvaux could not obscure the poor results of this mission, and well shows the power of the sect in the south of France at that period. I've changed that to name St. Bernard of Clairvaux as the abbot at the time, but he went in 1145, and AFAIK not as a Papal legate. Is the date wrong, or do the 2 sentences refer to 2 different preachers? --Townmouse 22:03, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ritual suicide?

The Voynich manuscript page refers to rumours or ritual assisted suicide among the Cathars, but I can't find any mention of it in the write up. Is there any historical basis to these rumors? Are they part of the Catholic conception of the sect?

More curious than anything else, but I imagine that accusations of such should probably fit into the suppression subsection

-J

This is just propaganda IMO. Ericd 11:44, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I completely agree, there were many accusations made against them but I myself cannot find any evidence of ritual suicide either here in London, or in Carcassone Bibliotheque. I think it should be removed as soon as possible, as it is true propaganda and adds nothing to the authenticity or accuracy of this page --drmike 12:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Cathars and Troubadours and Women

Greetings. I have been researching women rulership in the midevial periode and came across the Cathars. In all my lititure reguarding women and Cathars they state women were held in far better standing, often leaders of their own local communities. And that Catharism transended the feudal system to include the peasents and nobility. The Troubeldors are cited as heavily influenced by Cathars, as was the ducal house of Poutier. According to my sources, women in the Aqutaine, largely because of the Cathar influence, were able to inherite and rule their own lands in precident to their children or other male relitives as would have been the case in Northern France under Salic. This tradition led to Eleanor of Aqutaine inheriting by right.

Can anyone comment on this? I have not seen the same kind of information in this particular artical and would welcome more discussion on women Cathars and the Aqutaine/Troubordor connection.Drachenfyre

Can we have troubadours spelt correctly please in the title? I've changed it myself as it looks ridiculous --drmike 12:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Neoplatonism

I changed a bit of the wording from "forms of Gnosticism, such as Neoplatonism", given that Neoplatonism does not reside inside Gnosticism, though they are certainly interwoven.

== Suppression --

This last sentence in the second paragraph in "Suppression" is faulty but I don't want to try to correct it because I'm not sure I'd get the meaning right:

"By the time Pope Innocent III came to power in 1198, resolved to suppress the Albigenses."

;Bear July 8, 2005 04:38 (UTC)

What of the History Channel presentaion recently

The History Channel aired a presentation called, Beyond the Da'Venci code or some such nonsense. The focus was on conspireacy theory. The History Channel mentioned that the Cathars worshiped in a cave with a pentacle carved into a rock face. Is there any truth to this and if so what does it mean for the Pagan community. (206.222.59.166)

Looking for some fuel to hate Christianity? TheUnforgiven 17:09, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

No truth that I know of. Even if true, I don't see what relevance it would have to neo-Pagans. Paul B 14:03, 1 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Utter drivel. I think the name of the programme is enough to expose the content as being historically questionable. Valiant Son 17:51, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

It is drivel and should not be placed in an article such as this? There is no evidence of pentagrams, pentacles or anything of the sort. The programme didnt try to make its an authority but speculated and provided absolutely no evidence of any geometric shape. I think this should be removed.--drmike 12:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

A)Is it true? Probably not. It sounds like something someone dredged out of anti-Cathar propaganda and gave a little twist for modern tastes. I personally take anything I hear on one of the History Channel's specials with a bucketful of salt and a lot of personal research. B)What does it mean for modern Pagans? Nothing whatsoever. Whether or not the Cathars worshiped pentagrams carved in underground underground is completely immaterial to modern Neo-Pagans, as are the vast majority of things in this world and it's history, a fact which seems to annoy many of my co-religionists to no end. (wink)

Paganlady 20:57, 1 December 2005 (UTC)paganlady

bucketful of salt? add that to your personal research queue

Visigoths?

The small section about Visigoths seems a bit suspicious. Sources?

Seems like tosh to me. It was added by TheUnforgiven in unexplained replacement of his equally unsupported earlier claim that the persecution of Cathars was a synonym for attacking the Alans. Paul B 14:10, 1 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Toulouse was the centre of the Albigensian Crusade and it was there that the Visigoths had their first royal capital. I confused the issue with Vandals and Alans moving through, although the Alans most likely transported Asiatic religion into the area on their way to Africa. Where there were no Gypsies beforehand, they became common after that time. TheUnforgiven 09:44, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

The Da Vinci code is mostly embellishment and sensationalism. It's main 'sources' are all crackpot fringe conspiracy theorists like the authors of 'Holy Blood and the Holy Grail'. If you want to know anything about the Cathars, i wouldn't advise learning about it from Dan Brown.

St. Dominic

We should add something about St. Dominic's involvement in the early preaching to and debating with the Cathars, etc. --Jim Henry | Talk 16:12, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

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Article about Bogomils is not correct. Bogomils and Paulians were not the same, at least according to Steven Runciman (The Medieval Manichee) and sources given by him.Yeti 00:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Latin without translation

For those of us without English public school education (vast majority of viewers of Wikipedia) what is "Hos nostra germania catharos appellat."? Excuse my plebidity Gwaka Lumpa 11:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

My latin isn't perfect, but I think that means "he names our germans those cathars." I must be making an error somewhere.68.79.115.153 03:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

After searching the article, that sentence is nowhere to be found, are you sure you're not looking at the wrong page or something? 68.79.115.153 03:06, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's there - and wikified for some reason. Paul B 13:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

A literal, word for word, translation of this Latin sentence is: these men our Germany Cathars call. An accurate, but free, translation would be: we in Germany call these people Cathars.Mystery Man 11:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed text

"*Christian Rosencreuz, according to some, may have been associated with an underground Cathar movement that hid from the Inquisition. However, this is highly unlikely because there is absolutely no evidence that the Cathar movement still existed by Rosencreuz' time, nor is there any concrete evidence that Rosencreuz existed at all."

This seems incredibly weaselly. Who associated him with the underground Cathar movement? - Ta bu shi da yu 02:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Misc Sources

Just added the word "Dualist" to the intro. Hope that's OK.

On the question of the origin of the word Cathar, I'd always held to the idea that it was from a German word for a cat rather than the Greek catharos usually cited. (The medieval Church was not in the habit of giving complimentary names to groups it regarded as enemies). But I recently noticed in "The Other God" a reference to the extraordinary fact that Mani's father belonged to a sect called the Catharioi. This may be a coincidence so I didn't change the text, but interesting, n'est pas. There's a proper reference somewhere on [this website].

There's also info on the bogomils on [this site] who seem to have been a distinct bunch from the Paulicians, albeit with much in common. Trollwatcher 19:21, 19 February 2006 (UTC)