User talk:Reikasama

Some thoughts about loan words

I realized that one of the problems you're having, I think, has to do with your understanding of loan words--that is, words brought from one language into another; loan words brought from English into Japanese are called 和製英語. You seem particularly concerned that English writers are misusing the word lolicon, because they're not using it according to the actual Japanese meaning. Well, a better way of putting it is that lolicon actually doesn't mean the same thing as ロリコン.

See, the thing is, when words are moved between languages, sometimes they keep the same meaning, and sometimes they're different. For example, Japanese construction companies often use the word リフォーム, which comes from the English word, "reform". The thing is, リフォーム doesn't meaning anything even similar to "reform". A better translation for "reform" is usually something like 正す (that is, to correct/improve bad behavior) or 改革 (when a government or company makes major changes in the way it operates to improve life/business). But Japanese companies use リフォーム to mean "taking an old house/building, breaking it down, and then rebuilding it to make it new and better". The correct English word for リフォーム is actually "remodel" or "rennovate". However, even though the Japanese companies are using the 和製英語 differently than the original English word, that doesn't mean they're using it incorrectly. On jp.wiki, it would be perfectly acceptable to use リフォーム in Japanese articles, and English writer would not be allowed to go there and say "No, that's not what リフォーム really means!"

The exact same situation happens here with ロリコン/lolicon. The English word has come to have a slightly different, though related, meaning to the original Japanese. It is definitely the case that in the US, lolicon is a genre of a manga/anime; as such, using the term that way in en.wiki is correct.

I hope this helps; I'm only a beginning level Japanese speaker, so I apologize if I haven't explained this as well as I could. I can tell that you really are trying to help on the manga articles that got you in trouble on ANI, but you're struggling to deal with both language issues and Wikipedia's rules about sources. If you relax, assume other people really are editing in good faith, ask questions, don't attack other editors, etc., I think you really can contribute successfully here. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Infact i suggest to merge 2 topics in the article to make better evidence that the word has 2 different meanings. Apart this i disagree that a foreigner country should use a different meaning, the meaning is only 1, the word is born in Japan and should use according to the mother language where it came from. Make zero sence that in Usa it have a different meaning, in Europe another and in Japan another. Imo. Reikasama (talk) 20:13, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that you can't stop words taking on a life of their own when they cross from one culture to another. Take balti - in Hindi it means 'bucket' or 'pail', in England it refers to a specific type of spicy food. Or kedgeree, another Hindi word, this time food for poor people, made from rice and lentils cooked together. Over the years in England it has become the word for a fancy breakfast served in the houses of the rich, made of rice cooked with smoked fish and hardboiled eggs. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:38, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Reikasama, are you saying that リフォーム is used incorrectly in Japanese? What about マナーアップ、which is clearly derived from English but makes absolutely no sense, grammatically or logically? What about スマート? In English (American at least), "smart" stopped meaning "stylish, attractive" about 100 years ago; now "smart" in English only means "intelligent"; but in Japanese it still retains the old meaning? Should Japanese people stop using the word that way? Of course not--the word is now a part of Japanese, and it would be wrong for an English speaker to say "Hey, you can't change that words meaning!" As Elen said, when words change from one language to the other, they often change meanings. Words even change meanings within the same language, over time. In English, lolicon means something different from ロリコン. That's just reality, and since this is English Wikipedia, we will use the English meaning. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:46, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

When a word make no sense from a language to another you use synonims or a more long explanation, like Wasshoi, you can't translate it directly but you use "summer festival". In this specific case the meaning is completely different and make zero sence, lolicon define a behaviour in Japan of someone in real life as someone aroused by little girls. This is the only meaning. But in west is a genre of anime and manga? Is misleading. So i suggest to specify this difference more, that is more a meme then the true meaning. Is how i think should be, same for hentai and ecchi. Reikasama (talk) 09:37, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

No, you're missing the point. The "true" meaning of ロリコン in Japan is whatever you said it was. The "true" meaning of lolicon in the west is a genre of anime and manga featuring underage girls with sexual element. The word is used in the west to distinguish a specific product of the film and comic industry that is different from the hardcore 'kiddie porn' genres. It's the word we use to describe it. The meaning of a word is its meaning in actual use - it's no good saying that it doesn't actually mean X when everyone uses it to mean X. You can certainly say "in Japan means Y" but you have to also recognise "in Engish, means X" Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:29, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I recognize only the true meaning not a meaning that don't belong to this word invented in the west. I prefer use [loli manga] or [loli anime] when people referring to a show that feature lolis as main character because is the correct category. I still see the lolicon tag as a offensive terminology applied to anime and manga because of the original meaning. This is my opinion and i will never change idea, i will change only IF in Japan is considered a genre too but is not the case. On the other hand i know that people use this meaning in the west and i can't do anything about it, but for this reason i consider my proposal still valid, to differentiate the two usage more clearly from east to west. Reikasama (talk) 12:23, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Differentiating is a good thing. The term originated in Japan, and highlighting that it is used differently in the west to the way it is used in Japan is part of its history. However, where there are sources as to how a word is used in the west, you have to accept that this usage is as 'true' in Wikipedia terms as the Japanese usage is. Referring to the Japanese version as 'true' will likely cause trouble, as will changing categorisation to match the Japanese equivalent when speaking of the western product. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:16, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Only here but i can't accept this meaning as absolute truth elsewhere when i'm referring to animeand manga, infact i consider true only the original meaning. But i get your point, still i don't do anything to edit that page, i leave this task to you or someone with better english because mine is far from perfect to do a proper explanation on the matter. I will do something only in case nobody will do. Reikasama (talk) 14:54, 6 September 2011 (UTC)