Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heavy metal in Islamic countries

Heavy metal in Islamic countries

Strong Delete The idea of having this article is a POV. This is as much riduclous as "Metal in Western countries" or "Metal in Christian countries" (How about having that on Asian Wikipedia?!). There is no shared 'Heavy metal' scene in 'Islamic countries'. Infact, the Metal bands in the 'Islamic countries' sing against Islam in most cases, which is why they are usually banned from playing live and their materials are only released in bootlegs. To have an article and put them together under the title of "Heavy metal in Islamic countries" is very much POV from a western perspective, and the whole idea is wrong. I had asked the contributer many times to forget about this idea but sadly he doesn't listen. - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 09:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, this was put up in great faith as a compromise to include regional scenes (eg Iranian metal) which were not individually notable. However, I don't believe there are enough commonalities between playing metal in these countries beyond perhaps a lack of free speech, which is certainly not unique to Islamic countries. There is no combined Islamic scene for this kind of music, nor verifiable instances of media coverage (eg of problems / arrests / riots due to metal in these countries), and the topic is unnecessary. If it could be demonstrated that there are notable bands in these countries either playing "Islamic heavy metal" or suffering from problems directly related to Islam it would be a different matter. Deizio 09:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment: You are correct to say that there is no common theme, I am not too sure about Metal in e.g. Pakistan, but the theme for Metal in Iran for example is about history of Iran. However to say they are not notable is a POV also. I had explained that it is of great important to Iranians, and as there was a list on that article with over 100 or so bands you can hardly deny it's existance, or it's importance.The articles just need expanding - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 09:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The "list" in question was comprised entirely of external links to unnotable bands, none of whom had a WP article, and therefore flew in the face of WP:NOT, WP:MUSIC and WP:EL. The importance of this topic to Iranians, or anyone else, has not been verified. All of these factors add up to a massive failure of WP:V, an official policy. Deizio 13:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment: The importance of rock music has already been "verified" and showed in the article here.-- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 14:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

• keep. the intention I (creator) have here is the create a generic article about heavy metal in Islamic countries. Currently it is just some stuff that I gathered from other pages that was ill-placed or isn't worth an article by itself. Perhaps the article can be moved to something even more general such as heavy metal acceptance or something. Anyway the broad idea is the actually prevent articles about regional scenes, but cover general issues concerned to all such scenes into this article. However, some one knowledgeable about such issues should step in and write it into a decent album. One problem with most metal genre related articles is that they focus only on Western scenes, where freedom of speech and such is quite common - in countries like Iran, Indonesia, etc etc it is much harder to establish a metal scene. Any thoughts however for improvement are more than welcome. Moreover, I also feel that this is a bit of a personal strike of Kash against me for AFD'ing Iranian metal before and given his comments that I should leave his articles alone (and as such this step was too predictable). Consider his comments on my talk page as well as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal. In this respect also like to point out that Iranian metal now redirects to a page with merely a copyvio statement. Also not that the creation of this article was considered on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal as well. Spearhead 10:04, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment:Try to be WP:Civil for a change. I had discussed the matters many times with you, I told you to wait until we can expand the article however you decided not to. It doesn't matter what your intentions were. The point is that you shouldn't take such a POV for creating articles, and for reasons explained, this article is just POV. It's like having an article titled "Metal in Western countries" or "Metal in Christian countries" on an Asian wikipedia. -- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 10:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

• Comment, I would ask Spearhead and Kash to refrain from continuing this debate here, as their views have been made time and again on the relevant talk pages, which interested editors will take note of when considering this matter. Further banter here will not do the credibility or good faith of either the article or AfD nomination any good. Deizio 13:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment I put this up for deletion so I will comment if it is needed. However please do not make this any more than it is, AfD, there is nothing personal about it. -- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 14:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep While the metal scenes of various countries have no encyclopedic value as such, and don't warrant an article (the information can easily be put on the article for the country's music, see Music of Iran for Iranian metal bands for example), the problems faced by extreme music bands (or even any rock bands for that matter) in Islamic countries could deserve an article. It appears as a good compromise between those who would like to see this and all regional scenes deleted and those who want to make an article for every country. "Heavy metal in Islamic countries" is a cultural (maybe even anthropological), let alone musical issue that concerns many people. IronChris | (talk) 17:43, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment: If it was a good compromise, I wouldn't be going through all this trouble for it. I think fans and the bands of Metal scene in those countries would be deeply offended to see it categorized as this. Their music is against Islam and their lyrics shout out it out clear that their country is not Islamic. There is just an Islamic rule in the country. -- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 20:09, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

• Delete: The material in this article covers two cases as it appears to me:

• Social acceptance of metal music
• Music in Islamic culture

So, there is hardly any need for this particular article which seems to be on the borderline of POV or invented topics. The material should be lumped under the above two broader categories. Also generalising Islamic countries may not be appropriate, since different definitions of the word "Islamic countries" may be used, such as, "country with Islamic constitution", "country with Muslim population majority", "country with significant Islamic cultural influence", etc. Also the reason for heavy metal music ban may depend on non-genre related reasons. For example, playing loud music (which may be even pop or hip-hop) is illegal in many Western countries as well. Then music, irrespective of genre, might be illegal in several countries. Worth pointing out, not all non-Islamic countries - whatever that means - have huge thriving metal scenes. Examples include countries in Africa, India, etc., where loud music is socially unaccepted. So, the given article is generalising based on incorrect parameters. -- urnonav 17:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)