Jump to content

User talk:Orangemarlin: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
SD5bot (talk | contribs)
Bots
11,897 edits
m BOT: replacing template(s) per discussion about misleading template name
Orangemarlin (talk | contribs)
30,771 edits
Done here.
Line 1: Line 1:
{{retired}}
<!--Message bar-->
{| class="messagebox standard-talk"
|-
|
*New threads belong at the '''''bottom''''' of talk pages. Just click this link to start: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Orangemarlin&action=edit&section=new 'new section']. I reserve the right to summarily remove (without responding, and possibly even without reading) any new threads placed here at the top of this talk page.
*Discussion directly pertaining to a specific article belongs on that article's talkpage, not on this page. Where such discussion is erroneously posted here, I may move it to article talk, or (if I'm feeling lazy, cranky, mean, belligerent, or for any other arbitrary reason) simply delete or revert it. Just post it where it belongs in the first place.
*I likewise reserve the right to curtail (by reversion, deletion, archiving or otherwise) any thread on this talkpage that I (on my sole discretion) feel has become, or is is likely to be, ''unproductive''. If you object to such curtailment, then by all means ''don't post here''.
*If you are an admin here to admonish me for some imagined slight against humanity, a POV editor, the purity of Wikipedia, or Jimbo Wales himself, do so if you think it's going to matter, or even if it makes you feel better. I'm not going to censor you. But, unlike two admins who threatened to block me with no right to do so, make sure you have your facts right. They didn't.
*This user has their preferences set to automatically watchlist all articles they edit, and all pages they comment upon. It is therefore '''completely unnecessary''' for you to {{tl|talkback}} this user to tell them that you have replied to a comment. Assume that I will either respond if I feel like, or I won't respond because I don't wish to continue the conversation. Putting a talkback template will guarantee I won't respond.
*Sense of humor matters. If you crack me up in warning me not to say "fuck", I'm going to laugh, and probably not use "fuck" for a couple of days. That being said, there is no implied or explicit guarantee of that.
*All comments that are, in any interpretation, supportive of the New York Yankees will be immediately reverted. You have been warned.
|}

<!--Main section-->
{| cellspacing=0 style="width: 100%; background: #F9FFFF"
| valign="top" style="width: 100%" |
{| cellspacing=3 style="width: 100%; border: none; background: #F9FFFF"
|-
|
<!--Archives-->
<div style="margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 4px; background: #EAEAEA; text-align: left; border: solid #999999 1px">

==Archives==
</div>
<div style="padding: 4px; background: #FFFFFF; font-size: 95%; text-align: left; border: solid #999999 1px; border-top: 0px">
[[/My user talk page]]|[[/My user page]]|[[/Rules archives 1]]|[[/Amusing Vandalism]]|[[/Medical 1]]|[[/Miscellaneous 1]]|[[/Miscellaneous 2]]|[[/Miscellaneous 3]]|[[/Religion 1]]|[[/Religion 2]]|[[/Evolution-Creation Discussions 1]]|[[/Evolution-Creation Discussions 2]]|[[/Archives 1]]|[[/Archives 2]]|[[/Archives 3]]|[[/Archives 4]]|[[/Archives 5]]|[[/Archives 6]]|[[/Archives 7]]|[[/Archives 8]]|[[/Archives 9]]|[[/Archives 10]]|[[/Archives 11]]|[[/Archives 12]]|[[/Archives 13]]|[[/Archive 14]]|[[/Archive 15 Elonka discussions]]|[[/Test page]]|[[/New user page]]|[[/Baseball ideas]]|[[/Dinosaur ideas]]|[[/Arbitration discussions]]|[[/SU Basketball]]|[[/Syracuse University]]|[[/Herpes zoster]]|[[/Archived Election Commentary]]|[[/Archives March-April 2011]]|[[/Archives May 2011]]|[[/Archives June-July 2011]]|[[/Archives Health Best Wishes]]
</div>
|-
|
<!--RFA, FAC, FAR-->
<div style="margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 4px; background: #EAEAEA; text-align: left; border: solid #999999 1px">

==Important Items to Watch==
</div>
<div style="padding: 4px; background: #FFFFFF; font-size: 95%; text-align: left; border: solid #999999 1px; border-top: 0px">
<br />
{{ArbComOpenTasks}}
{{RfarOpenTasks}}
{{Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard/RfA Report}}
{{User:Deckiller/FAC urgents}}
{{User:Tony1/FAR urgents}}
</div>
|-
|

==Articles on [http://doctorrw.blogspot.com/2008/01/exposing-quackery-in-medical-education.html Quackademic Medicine]==
</div>
<div style="padding: 4px; background: #FFFFFF; font-size: 95%; text-align: left; border: solid #999999 1px; border-top: 0px">
Below are articles articles, mostly medical but some in the sciences, that promote ideas or POV's that might endanger human life. Feel free to add your own, but I'm watching and cleaning up these articles. Please sign if you add something.

*[[List of medicinal herbs]]-lacks any references, and implies these drugs can help.[[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] 00:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
*[[Herbalism]]-same as above [[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] 00:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
*[[Homeopathy]]-ridiculous [[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] 00:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
*[[Attachment therapy]]-don't let your children go there [[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] 00:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC) This has been rewritten since [[User:AWeidman]] (Dr Becker-Weidman) and his 6 socks were indef banned. [[User:Fainites|Fainites]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Fainites|barley]]</small></sup> 16:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
*[[Medicinal plants of the American West]]-more unsourced POV edits [[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] 00:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
*[[Alternative medicine]]-more of the same [[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] 00:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
*[[Naturopathic medicine]]-Actually not completely off the wall, but some parts are bad. [[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] 00:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
* Er, [[Duesberg hypothesis]] and [[poppers]] could both use more work, and talk about endangering lives... especially the former. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]''' <sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 18:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
* I'd also add [[ephedra]] to the list... I did a lot of work cleaning it up and it's not so bad anymore (it actually references the serious harms and deaths associated with ephedra supplements in a way that goes beyond referring to the FDA as jackbooted thugs, now). But much of the same material is duplicated in [[ECA stack]], which I haven't been as successful with, and which I fear gives an erroneous impression as to the safety record of ephedra-containing dietary supplements. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]''' <sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 19:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
* Arguably, [[Reflexology]], though that's probably not actually ''dangerous'', just ridiculously oversold. [[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]] <sup>[[User_talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]]</sup> 00:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
* [[Vaccine controversy]]. Anti-vaxers are really dangerous. -- <i><b><font color="004000">[[User:Fyslee|Fyslee]]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">[[User talk:Fyslee|talk]]</font></b> 08:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
* [[Hulda Clark]]. A dangerous scam. -- <i><b><font color="004000">[[User:Fyslee|Fyslee]]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">[[User talk:Fyslee|talk]]</font></b> 08:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
**This one has been stable in reasonable shape for awhile now. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 19:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
* [[Gary Null]]. Advocates nonsense. -- <i><b><font color="004000">[[User:Fyslee|Fyslee]]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">[[User talk:Fyslee|talk]]</font></b> 08:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
**Working on this one. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 19:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
* [[Joseph Mercola]]. Advocates nonsense and repeated run ins with the FTC. -- <i><b><font color="004000">[[User:Fyslee|Fyslee]]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">[[User talk:Fyslee|talk]]</font></b> 08:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
* [[rebirthing]], [[reparenting]], [[Power therapies]]. [[Primal Scream therapy]]. I would treat [[Neurolinguistic Programming]] as the main hub for many of them though. Its a subject that seems to be the main pseudoscientific umbrella that is used by most of them to give the false impression of scientific appearance. Its incredibly widespread and extremely misleading to the less scientifically literate. Here is a good source; [http://www.srmhp.org/0101/raison-detre.html]. [[User:Phloem|Phloem]] ([[User talk:Phloem|talk]]) 05:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
:anyone who wants to work on this complex of article, I'll be glad to help. Time we got to the pseudo-psychology. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 21:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
:try Eisner in ''The death of psychotherapy'', Chapter 3 "Cathartic Therapies:From Primal to ''est''". A little out of date but .... [[User:Fainites|Fainites]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Fainites|barley]]</small></sup> 22:20, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
* [[coral calcium]]. I just put in some references, but there is a lot more that can be done. That someone would think that coral calcium can be used as a panacea for all types of cancer when in fact excess calcium can, in some cases, be detrimental to certain cancer treatments means that we should be very careful how the claims of the coral calcium fanatics are treated. [[User:ScienceApologist|ScienceApologist]] ([[User talk:ScienceApologist|talk]]) 21:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
**This is pretty much fixed, at least until the next SPA... '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 19:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
* [[Mannatech]]. An article about a company that purveys ''sugars'', calling them health products (''[[glyconutrient]]s''). <font color="#0000b0">[[User:Antelan|Antelan]]</font><sup><font color="#b00000">[[User_talk:Antelan|talk]]</font></sup> 02:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
:::I tried on this, & only very partially succeeded. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 19:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
* [[Magnet therapy]] and [[Alex Chiu]]. You've got to be kidding. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 14:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
* [[Prostate cancer#Ejaculation frequency]] I'm sorry, but this just cracked me up. I need to read the references, but my side hurts. Juvenile, I am. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 06:07, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
*: The section in question seems okay to me, as it more or less just states the recent research and puts it in context. There might be something to it, might not. However, that study has bolstered support for [[Prostate_milking#Prostate_massage_as_alternative_therapy|these people]], which is, erm, unfortunate... --[[User:Jaysweet|Jaysweet]] ([[User talk:Jaysweet|talk]]) 18:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
* [[Colon cleansing]]{{spaced ndash}}After hearing radio commercials dozens of times for supplements, I had to do something. - [[User:RoyBoy|Roy]][[User talk:RoyBoy|'''Boy''']] 03:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
* [[New Thought]]. Some [[New Age]] medicine/religion attempting to hide it's snake-oil medicine by using religion. Intelligent design used the same method, and it didn't work there. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 06:30, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
* [[Bach flower remedies]] Like [[Homeopathy]] but without even the attempt at balance.[[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] ([[User talk:LeadSongDog|talk]]) 05:00, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
* [[Samuel Hahnemann]]. Bio on seminal homeopath. Needs watching.[[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] ([[User talk:LeadSongDog|talk]]) 18:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
* [[Elimination diet]]. Why do editors think they can add this crap to the project? [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 04:46, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Diets Category:Diets] has a number of dubious articles that get a fair bit of traffic and lack perspective. e.g. [[Cookie diet]] (800 calories), [[Alkaline diet]], [[LighterLife]], [[Cyclic ketogenic diet]] [[User:Phil153|Phil153]] ([[User talk:Phil153|talk]]) 02:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
</div>
|-
|
<!-- Best medical articles -->
<div style="margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 4px; background: #EAEAEA; text-align: left; border: solid #999999 1px">

==Medical Articles==
</div>
<div style="padding: 4px; background: #FFFFFF; font-size: 95%; text-align: left; border: solid #999999 1px; border-top: 0px">

Below are articles that I believe, along with any trusted science and medicine editors who may wish to contribute, meet the simple test of being well-written, do not give [[WP:WEIGHT|undue weight]] to [[WP:FRINGE|fringe theories]], and are either [[WP:GA]] or [[WP:FA]]:

*[[Alzheimer's Disease]]
*[[Rotavirus]]
*[[Helicobacter pylori]]
</div>
|-
|
<!-- The Kerfuffle -->
<div style="margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 4px; background: #EAEAEA; text-align: left; border: solid #999999 1px">

==[[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Orangemarlin|Request for Arbitration]]==
</div>
<div style="padding: 4px; background: #FFFFFF; font-size: 95%; text-align: left; border: solid #999999 1px; border-top: 0px">
If you are here to read about all of the Wiki-drama surrounding the secret hearings (so secret that no one on the ArbCom knew about them apparently), you can read it [[User talk:Orangemarlin/Arbitration discussions|here]]. No editing allowed. One day this will be funny. I hope.
|-
|
<div style="margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 4px; background: #EAEAEA; text-align: left; border: solid #999999 1px">

==Why [[Complementary and alternative medicine]] is pure bullshit==
</div>
<div style="padding: 4px; background: #FFFFFF; font-size: 95%; text-align: left; border: solid #999999 1px; border-top: 0px">
''The fundamental intellectual flaw of “CAM” as a concept is that it is made to include modalities that are extremely diverse, even mutually contradictory, under one umbrella. Very deliberately modalities which are scientific and mainstream, like the proper use of nutrition, are often included under the CAM umbrella by proponents in order to make it seem like CAM is a bigger phenomenon than it actually is, and as a wedge to open the door for the more pseudoscientific modalities.'' —[http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=203 Steven Novella]
</br>
</br>
''There is no alternative medicine. There is only scientifically proven, evidence-based medicine supported by solid data or unproven medicine, for which scientific evidence is lacking. Whether a therapeutic practice is “Eastern” or “Western,” is unconventional or mainstream, or involves mind-body techniques or molecular genetics is largely irrelevant except for historical purposes and cultural interest…''—{{cite journal |author=Fontanarosa PB, Lundberg GD |title=Alternative medicine meets science |journal=JAMA |volume=280 |issue=18 |pages=1618–9 |year=1998 |month=November |pmid=9820267 |doi= |url=http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/extract/280/18/1618}}
|-
|
|}

| valign="top" |
|}


== [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion/Proposed_decision#OrangeMarlin.27s_absence Fuck This Place] ==

Jclemens is absolute douche. Thanks MastCell, you're a good guy. If I were completely healthy, I'd love to see Jclemens in person. Probably a little pussy that would hide in his mommy's basement. Wouldn't have the balls to talk to me like a man. GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU TINY LITTLE MAN JCLEMENS. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 00:24, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
:Orangemarlin, I understand that you are very upset and angry right now. I do think that lashing out in anger is not going to achieve anything positive, and that your feelings on the matter can be expressed better. As such, I have removed your comment from the proposed decision talk page but not the one immediately above here, as this is your talkpage (though I do think that in the cold light of day you yourself might wish to remove it). If you wish to take this further, I suggest you do so calmly and wisely. If you would like any friendly advice, please do not hesitate to contact me. Regards --[[User:AlexandrDmitri|Alexandr Dmitri]] ([[User talk:AlexandrDmitri|talk]]) 02:23, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
::OM, think of it this way: by expressing yourself in these terms you risk creating a sympathy backlash for Jclemens. [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 02:32, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
:::The Harvester makes a good point. Stress relief is what you need OM. I'd suggest killing a puppy every time Jclemens comes to mind. <small> It works. I survived the Bush years using a similar technique involving kittens.</small> [[User:ArtifexMayhem|ArtifexMayhem]] ([[User talk:ArtifexMayhem|talk]]) 12:15, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
::::So ''that's'' what happened to the ''[[Panthera tigris altaica]]'' population!!! [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 14:15, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::He said puppy. Not kitty. Sheesh. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 10:56, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::I have a mental block about puppies dying. That's why [[Nipper]] is now 127 (human years) and going strong. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 14:22, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

OM is not the only one that is totally pissed off. This editor voted me to be banned from the article for using "uncivil hegemony and sarcasm" three times out of about 180 posts and when I go to the page mentioned here I find a post made by him that reads:

''Or should we just drop the pretense, and automagically give everyone who says they have real-world medical problems a "get out of ArbCom free" pass? That seems to be the direction we're heading, and I don't see any collective will within the committee to change it. Jclemens (talk) 02:00, 20 November 2011 (UTC)''

Er, isn't that the kind of talk that he wants me banned for? I am seeing a new side of Wikipedia that I do not like at all and it makes me very discouraged and angry. [[User:Gandydancer|Gandydancer]] ([[User talk:Gandydancer|talk]]) 16:23, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
:That's the sort of hypocrisy we've come to expect from Arbcoms, unfortunately. Alas they are blind to the corrosive effects of their double standards.-- cheers, [[User:Michael C Price|Michael C. Price]] <sup>[[User talk:Michael C Price|talk]]</sup> 17:43, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
::There's no useful set of checks and balances on the admins here. Most adminning is of the drive-by variety--take a quick look, issue an edict, and move on, Judge Dredd-style. I came out well in this latest round and yet I'm hardly encouraged by the process. [[User:JJL|JJL]] ([[User talk:JJL|talk]]) 03:21, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
{{od}}Took it off the page Artifex? Really? So, Jclemens, the pathetic little pussy who probably thinks being a janitor is a step up in life, gets to cast lies against me and get away with it? Then I can't even tell him he's a fucking asshole? Well, how fair is that? And Boris, if the system here actually worked well, I'd believe you on the backlash. However, he'll get support from the asshole crowd who thinks that homeopathy works, so it doesn't matter. Arbcom is made up of a few very good people, a few decent people, and a couple of truly awesome losers. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 10:55, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
:Huh?... I didn't take it off the page (whatever it is). To... uh... tell you the truth officer... she was dead when I got here. [[User:ArtifexMayhem|ArtifexMayhem]] ([[User talk:ArtifexMayhem|talk]]) 05:50, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
::The DNA tests have exonerated you. It appears that Alexandr is the guilty party. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 06:00, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
===Why quacks can succeed: A case study===
If the only difference between science based medicine and quackery were that one worked, and the other didn't, the current proliferation of homeopathy, etc, wouldn't be possible: the benefits of active treatment are normally perceived as superior to placebo. But the playing field isn't level. Humans are social animals, who want to perceive medical treatment staff as caring about them. They respond to things such as friendliness of the clerk at the front desk, the ambiance and decor of the office, and so on. When selling snakeoil, medical marketing factors such as these are everything. By contrast, the average citizen displays an appalling lack of medical knowledge. It is therefore a mistake for physicians to assume that they are so ''obviously'' better than quacks that they need not do everything they can to improve the treatment experience. Moreover, the success (or lack thereof) of a doctor's practice may not provide adequate feedback: the diversion of patients to quacks, and concomitant loss of demand for medical services, might simply be resulting in fewer students attending medical school than would otherwise be the case. Such a trend could easily be obscured (for now) by the current growth in the medical field and proliferation of new and expensive treatments. I assume, Orangemarlin, that you don't tell your patients to fuck themselves. Nonetheless, your behavior here, and for the last several years, illustrates the current attitudinal problems of the medical profession. [[User:Alessandra Napolitano|Alessandra Napolitano]] ([[User talk:Alessandra Napolitano|talk]]) 02:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
:If you're judging the "attitudinal problems of the medical profession" by Orangemarlin's contributions to Wikipedia, then I have to question the validity of your conclusions. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 05:13, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
::???[[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 10:38, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
::It's just an example. I've ample experience with doctors to conclude that there's an issue. Walk into the waiting room in a typical doctor's office and what will you see? A (figuratively) sterile environment brightly lit with fluorescent tubes installed in an acoustic tile ceiling. Beyond chairs, no attempts at decor are made; walls which could be covered with reprints of classic renaissance art or stunning landscapes are instead bare. None of that is really necessary: you don't need sufficient illumination to perform surgery or walls that can easily be sterilized in the waiting room. The receptionist is likely to greet you with an attitude of polite indifference. The doctor will converse with you only to gather enough information to make a diagnosis and formulate a treatment plan - it is absolutely out of the question that he/she would have sufficient time to really get to know you. None of these are favorable attributes for a medical system ''that is in direct competition with quacks''.
::There is also the matter of physicians hanging the "alternative medicine" (i.e. quackery) banner where it doesn't really belong. Systems like [[homeopathy]], etc, are clearly ''trying'' to practice medicine, and failing miserably at the task. But sites like Quackwatch are fond of sweeping all sorts of new-age spiritualism into the "medicine" category, then finding, not surprisingly, that the practices don't meet accepted evidence-based medicine standards. Purporting to cure cancer is clearly a medical claim, and proponents of unproven treatments in this respect should be vigorously excoriated. Claiming to balance someone's chakras or transmit reiki energy? It's about as medical as an exorcism. Continuing to stuff more and more physical, social, and religious activities into the "alternative medicine" category is untenable, and undermines respect for the medical profession.
::Finally, physicians themselves need to live up to evidence-based medicine standards. Far too many, at least outside the academic community, are treating based primarily on their own clinical experience or pharmaceutical manufacturer's advertising, while ignoring the medical literature. It requires a great deal of humility for doctors to admit that their own experience is subject to placebo effect and confirmation bias, so Cochrane may know better than them. [[User:Alessandra Napolitano|Alessandra Napolitano]] ([[User talk:Alessandra Napolitano|talk]]) 08:01, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
:::I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were large national differences on this one. In the UK, most GP's waiting rooms (and many hospital corridors etc.) have pictures and other visual attractions; many GP waiting rooms have small children's play areas, and fish tanks, and so on. Similarly, many individual doctors' consulting rooms have some level of decoration. And again, I think that it's possible that in the UK there may be a bit more of a "consider the whole family" approach. Thirdly (and possibly most importantly), in the UK we have The NHS, which (although not perfect) does mean that people aren't quite so tempted to hunt around for other (and possibly less expensive) modes of treatment. As someone who's had multiple surgeries, I've had quite a bit of experience of waiting rooms, wards, and corridors in the UK; I haven't seen, here, quite the same level of user-unfriendliness as is described above. It could be interesting to get hold of any end-user-surveys of medical care in different countries and compare levels of perceived impersonal-ness (I know there's a real word, but can't quite get to it) with levels of "alternative-medicine-seeking". [[User:ThatPeskyCommoner| <span style="color:#003300; font-family: cursive;">'''Pesky'''</span>]] ([[User talk:ThatPeskyCommoner|<span style="color:#336600;">talk</span>]] …[[Special:Contributions/ThatPeskyCommoner|''stalk!'']]) 12:12, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
{{od}}Alessandra, I have no clue as to your goals or even your logic here. I don't practice medicine, and if you read anything here about me, you wouldn't have made that assumption. As to relating my attitude towards pseudoscience as to what I do in the real world, well, that's why I hide behind a large degree of anonymity. I tell idiots here to fuck themselves, when in the real world, I have to smile and say, "sure, but the evidence doesn't support it." Then I call security and have them thrown through the window out on the street or something. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 10:47, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

== The fat lady ==

The other 29 teams in [[MLB|baseball]] ought to just stay home for the summer. The fat lady is in Miami, warming up her vocal cords for the <s>Miami</s> [[Florida Marlins]]. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 22:18, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
:You'd better fix that - it's a redirect to [[Miami Marlins]]. It will be interesting if they manage to sign Pujols, although I don't know how they plan to pay for their Yankees-style rent-a-big-name-player spree. Apparently [http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7318895/securities-exchange-commission-probing-financing-new-miami-marlins-stadium the SEC is already curious] about the dodges they used to finance their stadium. (Hey, Miami taxpayer! Sorry your house is worth 10% of what you paid for it. Now we need you to cover $2 million in property taxes for the new stadium so the owners don't have to pay them). Good to see them making moves, though, I guess. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 23:03, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
::The alliteration is cute though, you gotta admit. I got a supersize dolphins coffee mug years ago when I visited. My uncle had a holiday house there...and watching ''Burn Notice'' and ''Dexter'' makes me wanna go back :) [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 00:11, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Dexter is filmed mostly in Long Beach and other locations, with a few scenes shot in Miami. Don't get too excited. Burn Notice, one of the best on TV, is full-on Miami. I love it. I'm beginning to miss South Florida, but then it'll be {{convert|95|F|C|abbr=on}} with 100% humidity, giant cockroaches, alligators in my backyard, and 10 freaking hurricanes pointed my way, and I decide I just love California! And MastCell...you're just pissy because of your Phillies. But we both need to laugh at the Mets. Losers. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 00:21, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
::::I only went there the once in winter, and can anticipate the summer being...errr..challenging. Maybe the Mets should move to Miami. [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 00:56, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

::::Wow, did they really only introduce [[Major_League_Baseball_schedule#Interleague_play|interleague play]] in 1997?? Man, it's the local derbies in the UK and Oz that really get the fans going. Amazes me that one wouldn't want to see the locals slugging it out with each other as much as possible...and good for reducing greenhouse gas emission due to fewer planes needed to transport players and fans....[[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 01:01, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::The Marlins won it all in 97! I was still living there then. There are a couple of Aussies in the MLB. Can't name them, but I've heard their accent. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 03:20, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
{{od}}[[Lebron James|Lebron]], errrrrr, I mean [[Albert Pujols]] is in negotiations this evening with the <s>[[Miami Heat]]</s> Miami Marlins. As long as there is no baseball [[Dirk Nowitzki]] wandering the league. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 03:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
* [http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-brown_pujols_angels_agree_terms_120811 I'm so sorry]. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 18:19, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
**Apparently the fat lady preferred my home town. CJ Wilson and Pujols. And I never liked the Los Angeles Angels of Burbank. Or is it San Pedro? Long Beach? Pasadena? Reseda? I'm always confused. Hate them. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 18:32, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
*** It's cute to pretend there's a noticeable distinction between L.A. proper, Burbank, San Pedro, Reseda, Long Beach, etc... let's just stipulate that they play in a warm, smoggy place full of narcissists and plastic surgeons. Calling Albert Pujols a "fat lady" probably violates [[WP:BLP]]. You know Captain Occam probably cut-and-pasted that diff for the case he's building. Anyhow, the Rangers are in trouble - the Angels probably just became pre-season favorites to win the AL pennant. Their rotation looks incredible, at least on paper, especially compared to what the Rangers have left. Pujols can do pretty much everything on the field except lead a team, so we'll see how that plays out.<p>Do you understand the Marlins' thinking? It makes no sense to me. They have a [[Hanley Ramirez|speedy but frequently injured shortstop who hits for average with some power]]. So they went to the free-agent market and spent a fortune on... [[Jose Reyes|a speedy but frequently injured shortstop who hits for average with some power]]. I don't think Ramirez is going to go gently - it's apparently beneath the pride of any serious major-league shortstop to move to third, so he'll probably demand a trade. Does their approach make any sense to you? '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 19:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

== Arbitration motion regarding [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion]] ==

Resolved by <span class="plainlinks">[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification&oldid=464372102#Proposed_motion_.282.29 motion]</span> at [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification]] that:
The [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion|''Abortion'']] case is supplemented as follows:
<blockquote>Remedy 1 of ''[[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion|Abortion]]'' is amended to the following:
* Any uninvolved administrator may semi-protect articles relating to Abortion and their corresponding talk pages, at his or her discretion, for a period of up to three years from 7 December 2011. Pages semi-protected under this provision are to be [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion#Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion|logged]].
</blockquote>

For the Arbitration Committee, <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml"> '''[[User:Salvio giuliano|Salvio]]'''</span> [[User talk:Salvio giuliano| <sup>Let's talk about it!</sup>]] 12:27, 6 December 2011 (UTC)<br>
:'''[[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion|Discuss this]]'''

== Laws and Gifts ==

''For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.
And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.
That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by claw, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.
'' <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.87.63.208|67.87.63.208]] ([[User talk:67.87.63.208|talk]]) 22:53, 6 December 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Verily, you doth full of fucking shit. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 23:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
:Probably a cranky Mets fan. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 23:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
::Don't knock my Mets! [[User:JJL|JJL]] ([[User talk:JJL|talk]]) 23:49, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Well, those verses are from the [[Doctrine and Covenants]], so it's a cranky Mormon Mets fan... '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 00:01, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
::::I'm worried about you MastCell. Doctrine and Convenants isn't something familiar to most individuals. Curious that someone would dump Mormon propaganda on someone who lived many years in Utah, and has quite a high level of immunity to their beliefs. As if a bunch of gold plates actually showed up in Palmyra NY. More like someone was eating shrooms.[[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 00:42, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::Such cynicism. Next you're going to tell me that there's no such language as [[reformed Egyptian]]. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 01:09, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::I prefer [[Egyptian hieroglyphs|Orthodox Egyptian]]... [[User:Dbrodbeck|Dbrodbeck]] ([[User talk:Dbrodbeck|talk]]) 01:14, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::Since I wrote most of the article on [[Martha Beck]], I'm sure I'm not very popular with the [[Hugh Nibley|Teaching of Reformed Egyptian]] crowd. LOL. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 01:18, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

== [[Pregnancy]] ==

Hi there. I happen to have the above article on my watchlist, and I just noticed your [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pregnancy&curid=1771587&diff=464494552&oldid=464494364 reverted] an IP editor as "vandalism" and left a boilerplate message on their talk page to the effect that they had been reverted. I know when you're in RC Patrol mode, it's kinda easy to miss some stuff, but the edit was actually a good-faith edit made by an obvious newbie. Maybe next time, could you maybe use an automated tool to undo their edit with a kinder message (''"undid [[WP:AGF|good faith]] edit by xxxx: whatever issue"'') and maybe add a welcome message to their talk page rather than a warning? I know it's a little extra work, but it's best not to [[WP:BITE|scare them off!]]. Thanks! - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family: comic sans ms">'''A<font color= "#FF7C0A">l<font color= "#FFB550">is</font>o</font>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 02:23, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

:In my experience, few IP's are worth that much trouble. My interpretation of the edit was pure vandalism. I do use "good faith" when it's clear it's a good faith edit. I prefer to scare off newbies who waste our time than spend a nanosecond pretending that they'll do anything more than be a waste of our time. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 02:30, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

::Hear, hear! And then there are those who refuse to register, contributing without fully engaging with the community in what ''often gives every appearance'' of an attempt to evade responsibility and accountability for their edits—while nevertheless fully availing themselves of every opportunity to use Wikipedia policy as a bludgeon with which to beat others over the head and complaining that their anonymous edits are looked on askance. See e.g. [[Talk:Right-_and_left-hand_traffic#Iraq|this crapmess]] and [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive726#Anti-constructive_editing_actions_by_User:Scheinwerfermann|this related plaintive solliloquy]]. —<span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#FFFF00;padding:0 4px 0 4px;">[[User:Scheinwerfermann|Scheinwerfermann]]</span> <sup>[[User_talk:Scheinwerfermann|T]]</sup>&middot;<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Scheinwerfermann|C]]</sub><small>02:54, 7 December 2011 (UTC)</small>

:::I truly don't understand why IP editors are allowed, never have. [[User:Dbrodbeck|Dbrodbeck]] ([[User talk:Dbrodbeck|talk]]) 03:04, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

:::: I agree. Every time I've brought this up, I've never yet heard a good justification for allowing it. No one, not even experienced admins, have provided a decent reason. Requiring registration doesn't prevent anyone from editing. EVERYONE can still edit! The disadvantages of editing as an IP far outweigh any supposed advantages. The advantages are often equivalent to policy violations. -- [[User:BullRangifer|Brangifer]] ([[User talk:BullRangifer|talk]]) 03:11, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
{{od}}Well, since I stirred up the pot, let me continue. I cannot remember a single IP editor who wasn't either a punk at a school just causing trouble, a true vandal, a POV pusher OR someone trying to avoid responsibility as Scheinwerfermann says. Now, I started as an IP editor. But I never did anything to raise the ire of an admin (of course in 04, admins weren't a bunch of sanctimonious, incompetent and arrogant fucktards that they are now). The IP's that end up registering, usually make one or two edits, then register, and we never hear from the IP again. All other IP editors are WORTHLESS. There is no other argument. If I had the power, I'd block an IP after one violation of anything. But we keep letting them fuck around this place causing problems. We waste more time on IP users, but then we ban [[User talk:Badger Drink|Badger Drink]] for nothing. And Jimbo thinks that real editors aren't leaving in droves. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 03:27, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
:This is part of a larger issue: when weighing costs and benefits, the powers-that-be around here (WMF, arbcom) value the time and effort of established editors at very nearly zero. Look at the Scibaby problem in climate change. Look at what MastCell has had to go through with (whoever it was, name escapes me). The whole attitude is "better to waste 10,000 hours of time of good-faith editors than to take the slightest chance of blocking an obvious troll who might, possibly, somehow, someday make one constructive edit." [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 04:09, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
::You depress me Boris. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 04:23, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Thanks for bringing up ''IPs'' and reminding me of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion/Evidence#Two_editors_accounted_for_.7E40.25_of_the_3.2C175_edits_at_Talk:Abortion this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ArtifexMayhem/ArbAbort2011/TheIp67 this]. Next time how about you just give me a paper cut and put lemon juice on it. Depressing. <small>So this baby seal walks into a club...</small> [[User:ArtifexMayhem|ArtifexMayhem]] ([[User talk:ArtifexMayhem|talk]]) 05:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

::::Don't remind me of that Abortion debacle. What amuses me is that DMSBel got blocked and banned. Makes me happy. Oh, that's not what really amuses me. It's that I was involved in that travesty of an Arbcom thing, when I made like 5 edits at most. Oh wait, we're talking about IP's and not DMSTwit. LOL. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 05:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::Sorry to bust in, but if you read the actual stats, it's the IPs who provide most of the content. The regulars only maintain. [[User_talk:Becritical|<span style="color:black;">'''B<sup>e</sup>'''—</span><span style="background:black;color:white;padding:0px 5px 6px 0px;cursor:pointer;cursor:hand;letter-spacing:2px;">—'''C'''<sub>ritical</sub></span>]] 05:57, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::Go ahead and bust in. IP's provide most of content where? The whole project? Or Abortion? Well, if you're stating that they provide most of the content for Wikipedia as a whole, I'd say "lend me some of that dope you're smoking." No way. And if you're talking about the abortion article, then I'd you're wrong. Almost all of the IP's contributions was whining, complaining, POV-pushing, and being overall jackasses on [[Talk:Abortion]]. I counted less than 10 (???) edits to the article itself. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 06:03, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
{{od}}No, WP as a whole, see this article [http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/whowriteswikipedia]. [[User_talk:Becritical|<span style="color:black;">'''B<sup>e</sup>'''—</span><span style="background:black;color:white;padding:0px 5px 6px 0px;cursor:pointer;cursor:hand;letter-spacing:2px;">—'''C'''<sub>ritical</sub></span>]] 06:35, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
:That article doesn't seem to have many facts on its side. I just chose a few random articles, and almost every single article is mostly written by one or two people, with a bunch of people cleaning up or vandalizing (almost always IP's). I cannot believe that IP's contribute any more than a couple of percent to the totality of the project. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 06:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
::I don't have real stats, but it's also my casual observation from doing a little bit of recent changes patrol. [[User_talk:Becritical|<span style="color:black;">'''B<sup>e</sup>'''—</span><span style="background:black;color:white;padding:0px 5px 6px 0px;cursor:pointer;cursor:hand;letter-spacing:2px;">—'''C'''<sub>ritical</sub></span>]] 07:10, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
** The Dartmouth Study of 2007 showed that, ''"Surprisingly, however, we find the highest quality from the vast numbers of anonymous 'Good Samaritans' who contribute only once. Our findings that Good Samaritans as well as committed "zealots" contribute high quality content to Wikipedia suggest that it is the quantity as well as the quality of contributors that positively affects the quality of open source production."'' <small>({{cite journal|last=Anthony|first=Denise|coauthors=Sean W. Smith, Tim Williamson|title=The Quality of Open Source Production: Zealots and Good Samaritans in the Case of Wikipedia|journal=Dartmouth Technical Report|year=2007|month=September|issue=TR2007-606|url=http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/reports/TR2007-606.pdf|accessdate=7 December 2011}})</small>
** And there you are, beating them over the head, Orangemarlin. No wonder editor retention is at an all-time low. I edited anon for many months before trying registered accounts. Had you been doing your [[WP:DICK]] thing back then, who knows who else wouldn't be here now. And as a checkuser, I know too well what ''some'' anons do. But what you did back there was slam some editor - possibly not a native English speaker - who had done their best. That's just not right - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family: comic sans ms">'''A<font color= "#FF7C0A">l<font color= "#FFB550">is</font>o</font>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 07:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
** [http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/March_2011_Update Issues with editor retention], from [[Sue Gardner]], no less; ''"Newbies are making up a smaller percentage of editors overall than ever before, and the absolute number of newbies is dropping as well. That's a problem for everyone, because it means that experienced editors are needing to shoulder an ever-increasing workload"'' - well, I wonder why? - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family: comic sans ms">'''A<font color= "#FF7C0A">l<font color= "#FFB550">is</font>o</font>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 07:56, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

:::Yeah, I knew there were more stats somewhere, I just didn't know where to find them. It seems to me that there is more to it than the steep learning curve or unpleasant environment. Wikis feel very retro, they just don't have the vibe people are used to. They're yesterday's thing, not what people do anymore. Twitter, facebook... that's where it is now, not wikis. [[User_talk:Becritical|<span style="color:black;">'''B<sup>e</sup>'''—</span><span style="background:black;color:white;padding:0px 5px 6px 0px;cursor:pointer;cursor:hand;letter-spacing:2px;">—'''C'''<sub>ritical</sub></span>]] 08:45, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
::::I think the views of OrangeMarlin and many others come from a kind of [[selection bias]]. We remember the disruptive IPs because they waste so much of our time, and because whenever we mention a particular IP, it's practically always a disruptive one. Whereas good IPs rarely edit outside article space, and we rarely have any reason to interact with them or even remember them. That makes them incredibly inconspicuous. Studying [[Abortion]] would also produce a skewed sample of IP contributions, as it's difficult for a casual or new editor to make an improvement to such a well-developed article, so all your left with is the vandals and trolls. [[User:Adrian J. Hunter|Adrian&nbsp;'''J.'''&nbsp;Hunter]]<sup>([[User talk:Adrian J. Hunter|talk]]•[[Special:contributions/Adrian J. Hunter|contribs]])</sup> 12:25, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::If someone is not a native English speaker, and not competent to write in English, why the hell should we be nice? I can read French, I can speak French, but my writing, well let's just say it is at about a grade 2 level.... I know enough not to edit a French language wikipedia article. Why coddle anyone? Oh and registration is not that arduous anyway. [[User:Dbrodbeck|Dbrodbeck]] ([[User talk:Dbrodbeck|talk]]) 12:59, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::@Alison. Sorry, but you're using logic that the anti-vaccination jackasses uses. Using your experience to make a conclusion about the whole Wikipedia experience. The fact is, you probably weren't a bad IP editor, so I wouldn't have treated you with the disdain I treat most other IP's. You see, Adrian is right, I have selection bias. I cannot remember the good IP's because they don't do anything bad, and we forget about them soon, or they register. They don't get treated badly. So your logic is easily dismissed for two major reasons: 1) I do not treat well-meaning IP's as dicks. If I err on the side of abusing them, oh well, not a major loss to the project. But the major one is 2) it's all about statistics. I'm one editor, probably hanging around 1% of the articles of Wikipedia, most which attract dumbfuck IP POV pushers. A nice IP editor fixing some silly video game article, I'm not going to see it. Of course, most of the IP editors on video game articles are adding "this game rocks. If you need more power, just hit your up button three times, while standing next to the green rock next to the dragon's dungeon." OK, I might have reverted something like that a few years ago. All and all Alison, I just don't agree with you. Boris is completely right. We spend a 1000 hours arguing about how we should be nice to fucking IP's. And spend 0 amount of time on how to get rid of fucking IP's and make better articles. Oh wait, we have Jimbo Wales removing a picture on [[Pregnancy]] that's been there for five years or so, because it offends his sensibility or some such shit. That's important to. Oh, wait I shouldn't be snarky to the lord god of Wikipedia. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 19:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::: While you're entitled to your opinion, of course, you're going to have to do a little better than ''"I just don't agree with you"''. As for the not treating well-meaning IPs as dicks, ''you just did that'' - that's why I'm here and we're having this conversation! Seriously. As for the 'why the hell should we be nice to non-native speakers?' - I can't believe I'm hearing that here. Look - I also spend time on French, German, Dutch Wikipedia where I deal with articles related to my native country and add images, fix cats, etc. My French is high-schoolish. Sometimes I SUL in and sometimes I don't even bother. I'm an 8+ year editor on this project - an admin/functionary (BFD - I know) - and when I'm there, I'm just another IP with poor language skills. All I need is for some ban-happy hater on that project to not give a shit, and I'm in the same hot water as the editor you just slammed. See? [[WP:AGF]] runs this place, not [[WP:DICK]] and it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to at least take a look before you decide to slap some anon editor upside the head - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family: comic sans ms">'''A<font color= "#FF7C0A">l<font color= "#FFB550">is</font>o</font>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 02:00, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
{{od}}
===Arbitrary break...I said arb....hehehehehee===
Since our conversation has wander a bit, I thought I'd put in a break. OK Alison, you've always treated me fairly and I've always respected you, but you're starting to piss me off. Neither of us probably cares about that (BFD, in other words), but you're trying to make me prove the negative with IP's. If you can show me proof that IP's are overwhelmingly a benefit to Wikipedia, then I'll never give shit to another one again. Furthermore, you need to prove to me that I'm a dick to worthwhile IP's. I mean we all make mistakes, but if more than 0.1% of the IP's I treat with disdain actually become useful, I'd love to see it. The fact is, as mentioned above, we're wasting way too much time on these IP's. As for how I work around here....did you know I co-wrote almost all of [[Alzheimer's disease]] with a non-native English speaking Spaniard neurologist? An FA article at that. But he wasn't an IP, he registered his account. Oh well, I guess we can dig up all kinds of examples to prove our points. I still don't why we put up with tendentious [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMastCell&action=historysubmit&diff=464666015&oldid=464527755 IP's with an agenda]. Just saying.[[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 04:02, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

* While I'm pretty sympathetic to Alison's point - and am currently discussing the issue of editor retention with MastCell [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MastCell&diff=prev&oldid=464527755] - I dont' really see how [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pregnancy&curid=1771587&diff=464494552&oldid=464494364 the edit], which adds "You will see you growing" in the context of reproductive organs, could be viewed as anything but silly vandalism. My experience in looking at article histories and such also confirms that much of the important contributions come from IPs. [[User:ImperfectlyInformed|<span style="font-family: Times">II</span>]] | ([[User_talk:ImperfectlyInformed|t]] - [[Special:Contributions/ImperfectlyInformed|c]]) 04:37, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
::Or, the edit could have been made by a child, who is excited at having understood the concept of pregnancy. [[User:Cardamon|Cardamon]] ([[User talk:Cardamon|talk]]) 07:46, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

* Much of the problem comes from discussing "IP editors" as a generic group. My experience with IP editors in climate change is filled with memories of comments like "Are most of you who are alarmists & cultists also gay? I'm looking to pack fudge" or "If there was a god, you would go to hell, for being dishonest & immoral." On the other hand I don't doubt that there are IPs who have brought articles on other topics (Family Guy episodes or whatever) up to FA status. But I'm not going to see those.<p>The WMF folks want to believe that IP editors are humanity's gift to Wikipedia. Some of us grizzled veterans of controversial topics think the opposite. We're both right, and we're both wrong. What's needed is a nuanced approach that can encourage the good IPs while protecting us from the bad ones. But "nuanced approach" is not the Wikipedia way. [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 04:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
:Nuanced, as in any IP editor ''with no recent constructive edit history'' gets fast-tracked from {{tlx|uw-vandal1}} to {{tlx|uw-vandal4im}} to [[wp:AIV]]. Be nice, but don't take so much crap before the slapdown.[[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 14:07, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
*What it comes down to is that just about every single grizzled veteran started out as an IP editor (and many of us still edit as IPs from time to time), so beating up on IP editors who make newbie errors is counterproductive. Most people choose not to participate in an activity where they are treated rudely or bullied; therefore, for every potentially decent IP editor who is treated like the dirt beneath someone's feet (and I include the silly autogenerated templates that (loosely paraphrased) say "you did something wrong on xxx article, but we're not going to tell you why you're wrong, you're just going to have to guess") we eliminate one more potential longterm, productive, grizzled veteran. [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 18:09, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
**First, I agree we all started out as IP's. No argument there. But I'll bet a year's salary that not one of us did our first edit as "Julie has big tits" or some such thing. And remember, every grizzled editor gives an IP editor a few chances. In fact, it takes 4 vandalisms in a short period of time to qualify for AIV. Second, I don't "beat up on newbie editors". This is just about vandalism. I guess I have a stricter standard of what constitutes vandalism, and frankly, which button I choose depends on several things: my mood, the performance of any of my sports teams, whether I've had a good dump, and whether MastCell or Boris has cracked me up lately. Seriously, it's a judgement call. and if I don't' have time to review their talk page, I err on the side of calling it vandalism. It's just my way of doing things. AND, if an IP is trying hard to fix something, but screws up, I always put a welcome template, and give advice. So, what are we all arguing about? [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 18:39, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Yes and what about the beating the long term editors receive from IPs. Check out the rants here on my talk page from this "new editor" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jmh649#YOUR_ABUSING_YOUR_EDITING_Privileges] His edits do by the way look very similar to those of a half dozen other new accounts. I have left about 8-10 nice messages on their user pages and am wondering if I should just be blocking on site.[[User:Jmh649|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 06:07, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
::::You and MastCell seem to attract them. He's dealing with someone who has googled every combination of XXX and thiomersal to try to make a point with regards to vaccines. I swear his next step will be "there are 473 hits for anal cancer and thiomersal". Again, I'm not seeing the usefulness of IP's. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 06:19, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
We need empirical data on the issue of IPs. Does anything now if this has been done? Colin is working through this issue of new, intelligent University student. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Colin/Introduction_to_Psychology,_Part_I] We definitely need to have appropriate rewards and sticks in place.[[User:Jmh649|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 06:17, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
:Wouldn't that be useful![[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 06:19, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
::Define "empirical data on the issue of IPs" please. [[User:ArtifexMayhem|ArtifexMayhem]] ([[User talk:ArtifexMayhem|talk]]) 06:34, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
:::The standard Wikipedian's definition of "empirical data": numbers and statistics that support things we're already convinced are true. :P '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 06:37, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
While we have the number on how many begin editing, what percentage of the edits are good or bad on a 5 point scale as seen here[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Colin/Introduction_to_Psychology,_Part_I]. What percentage are appropriately warned / excessively warned / treated too leniently. How many editors are driven away / do not even start editing due to the IP issue.[[User:Jmh649|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 06:39, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

== Moved... ==

...[[User:Orangemarlin/Archives Health Best Wishes|this]] to userspace - hope you don't mind. [[User:NawlinWiki|NawlinWiki]] ([[User talk:NawlinWiki|talk]]) 04:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
:Did I do something wrong? I've done all my archives in the same manner. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 04:39, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
:Never mind. Forgot one dumb slash. Ack. I'll be moving it again. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 04:40, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

== AZ ==
Hey, I saw from a post at WT:MED that you're back-- I hope you're well. Could I trouble you for information about Alzheimer's organizations? What group should I suggest for charitable donations? Time is of the essence (printer deadlines). Best, [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 21:45, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
:Yeah I'm back. Are you hinting at something about my obvious dementia? The [http://www.alz.org Alzheimer's Association] is the leading one, and audits of its use of funds seem to exceed appropriate standards of charitable foundations. Yeah, I'm back. Still cranky however. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 01:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
:: Thanks, we just wanted to make sure you thought highly of them before naming them recipient. You'd be off if you were on Wikipedia and weren't cranky :) Thanks again, [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 01:51, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

== Straw poll on fate of Evolutionary Biology article ==

Hi, this is to notify you that I have started a more indept discussion about whether the Evolutionary Biology article should be restored and in what form exactly. Please see [[Talk:Evolutionary_biology#Restoration_of_Evolutionary_biology]] for the discussion. -- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 03:42, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
:Hope there's a link to the original deletion discussion. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 04:29, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
==Not an advert==
The material I added to the two pages is not an advert. The material clearly meets wikipedia policy in that the statement is referenced with reliable source(s); texts published by well known and respected publishers and authors. If you believe the material is advert, please cite the specific wikipedia standard or policy and relevant section to back up your assertion; otherwise, please restore what you deleted as your deletion may actually constitute vandalism, as I read the relevant wikipedia page on that. [[User:ParanakanDoctor|ParanakanDoctor]] ([[User talk:ParanakanDoctor|talk]]) 12:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
:You've been blocked as a sockpuppet of [[User talk:DPeterson|DPeterson]]. You must think we're idiots. Oh, you can't read this. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 18:29, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
::No no, he can ''read'' it, he can't ''reply''....[[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 21:12, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
:::I'll bet that DPeterson and his/her numerous socks has neither read nor replied to any of these things. It's amusing that every time they do this, one or more of us revert, do the SPI, and they always claim that they're innocent. It's not challenging.[[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 21:28, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

== ANI on [[Evolution as fact and theory]] ==

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. <!--Template:ANI-notice--> Thank you.

You've done a lot of good hard work here. It is appreciated. Did I cross paths with you on my work at [[Dialectical behavior therapy]]? [[User:Alatari|Alatari]] ([[User talk:Alatari|talk]]) 21:41, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
:Probably not. Psychology articles rank only slightly above Marvel comic book heroes as Wikipedia articles that interest me. :) I do watch a couple of articles on attachment therapy, because I watch as many pseudoscience or junk medicine articles as I know. We might have crossed paths there, but your name is unfamiliar to me. I don't usually do anything at AN/I's...but let me see what's going on. I'll probably still ignore it. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 22:50, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Someone found me an interesting tool so I don't have to count on my swiss cheese memory: http://toolserver.org/~pietrodn/intersectContribs.php?wikiDb=enwiki_p&firstUser=Orangemarlin&secondUser=Alatari&sort=0 [[User:Alatari|Alatari]] ([[User talk:Alatari|talk]]) 00:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:Thanks. Saving that. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 00:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

== we're rationally skeptical that there's even a controversy ==

Thanks for the [http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chuckle chuckle]. Orangemarlin you're very good with words, I'll give you that. --[[Special:Contributions/199.60.104.18|199.60.104.18]] ([[User talk:199.60.104.18|talk]]) 23:51, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

== ''The Man from Earth'' ==

A big aloha to you and welcome back. Hope you're doing better and intend to stick around. I was wondering, have you ever seen the science fiction film, ''[[The Man from Earth]]'' (2007). I would be interested in hearing some feedback from you on this film. Thanks. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 01:52, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:Thanks. LTNS. No, I have not seen the movie, but it seems to have a wonderful premise. Now, let me see if I can download it somewhere, since they seem to not mind peer-to-peer networks. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 01:59, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:Heh I never thought I'd hear someone else mention this movie. I was friends with the guy who plays the main character years ago when I lived in LA so I checked it out. I found the premise really interesting but due to the low budget they weren't able to take it very far. The entire movie is dialogue for the most part and they spend most of their time in one room. Interesting idea, but I was disappointed. [[User:Noformation|<font color="black">N</font><sup><font color="red">o</font></sup><font color="black">f</font><font color="red">o</font><font color="black">rmation</font>]] <font color="black"><sup>[[User talk:Noformation|Talk]]</sup></font> 02:19, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
::I liked it quite well. It's on netflix last I looked. <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #DDDDDD">--[[User:Nuujinn|Nuujinn]] ([[User_talk:Nuujinn|talk]])</span> 02:37, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

==A word==
Hi OrangeMarlin, I just want to let you know that you don't help anyone when you give into your urge to verbally abuse people you with whom you have disagreements, least of all yourself. I realize I don't know the full context of your interactions with those users - but honestly I am not sure it really matters, you're a grown up and you need to be able to control your temper when you interact with others, even people you don't like. If you can't do that in the future you will need to avoid those people - because that kind of behavior is just as damaging to the encyclopedia as the kind of behavior you are accusing those editors of. By making the climate that hostile your are making sure that only the most meanspirited and motivated (i.e. pov-pushers) editors are the ones that stick around, and that is not going to solve your problems either. [[User:Maunus|·ʍaunus]]·[[User talk:Maunus|snunɐw·]] 16:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:You probably realize that I won't listen to any advice on this matter. However, I think you have failed to miss the point. I'm all right with creationist POV pushers like the ones that we see at various Evolution related articles. Eventually they get kicked in the ass by several other editors, and their POV edits are reverted. I just point them out to others. I don't "abuse them", as you say. If you're talking about Captain Occam, you need to read EVERYTHING. He made one of the most reprehensible accusations against my person, and he lacks the courage to apologize for it. He deserves all the abuse I give him. You need to see what he had sad, then come back and let's discuss that particular point. If you lack a diff for his exact verbiage in some arbcom discussion, then you're not looking hard enough. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 18:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
::I always try my hardest to fail to miss the point ;). I happen to be quite familiar with Captain Occam and the emotional stress that trying to "collaborate" with him can cause. But what he deserves is besides the point - its about what wikipedia deserves and about what it requires. Wikipedia is much like the real world that way - you cant just go around giving people what you think they deserve, because by doing that then you are all of a sudden deserving of similar treatment yourself, and you'll make someone feel justified in giving it to you. It leads nowhere. I think your behavior was understandable and I don't want to punish you for it - but I don't think it is excusable - no matter what Occam did to "deserve" it - because you don't just hurt Occam - you hurt the project. And if you continue going that way you will eventually force the turn of events against you - without it mattering whether your attitude was at first understandable. [[User:Maunus|·ʍaunus]]·[[User talk:Maunus|snunɐw·]] 18:42, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:::I'm sorry, but I've never collaborated with Captain Occam. Please, once again, you need to see what he said. It goes beyond "real world" behavior. If he had said that to me in the real world, the consequences to him would have been much more than a verbal commentary. The funny thing is that his love buddy, Jclemens on the Arbcom, repeated the same shit. Again, read the original point. Then let's talk. Oh, in my world, there are consequences for lies. Sorry, but I must live in a different environment than you. In my world, lies mean prison at worst, a tongue-lashing at the minimum. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 18:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:::See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion/Proposed_decision#OrangeMarlin.27s_absence these cowardly statements]. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 18:57, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
::::I've read the statements. I don't know where people go to prison for making unsavory speculations about others (I am also not sure that it falls in the category of lies in the world in which I live) - but in any case I am sure that you understand that dealing out vindictive tongue lashings, or other acts of vigilantism or revenge, also have consequences in the real world, just like they will here unless it stops. As I am sure you realize good men have gone to jail for meting out justified but illegal punishments. I wouldn't like to see the wiki-equivalent of that situation happen to you. [[User:Maunus|·ʍaunus]]·[[User talk:Maunus|snunɐw·]] 19:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::Sigh. Never mind. Read what you said. Totally disagree. We're done. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 19:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=465485441].[[User:Maunus|·ʍaunus]]·[[User talk:Maunus|snunɐw·]] 17:30, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::Why the fuck did you do that? Certain editors, who shall remain nameless, will think I influenced you. Probably use the diff to prove that I eat virgins for dinner. Hehehehehe. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 17:36, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::Long story...short penis.[[User:Maunus|·ʍaunus]]·[[User talk:Maunus|snunɐw·]] 17:37, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::::Hopefully you don't have the short penis, because the two nameless editors will use that against you by claiming everything you do is because you feel inadequate. Hehehe. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 17:44, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::::::That pretty much sums up the situation.[[User:Maunus|·ʍaunus]]·[[User talk:Maunus|snunɐw·]] 17:47, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

==A special message for the holiday season==
[http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20111210/NEWS/312100045/0/SPORTS0804/?odyssey=nav|head execute] [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 18:02, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:If I stub my toe on a chair, the offending chair is sacrificed to the gods at dawn. I completely agree, it's an evolved behavior, as is almost all behavior. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 18:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
::That story was propagated far and wide in the press. Must have been a slow news week...[[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 20:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

== How do you spot a nutritional quack? ==

<small>Sorry, but... [http://www.dietitians.org.nz/assets/FactSheets/How-to-spot-a-quack-final.pdf copyvio from here] redacted [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 17:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)</small>

Thank you DietitiansNZ. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 09:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

:You're no fun LSD. No fun at all. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 17:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

::LSD has always been fun for me. Just don't take to much. [[User:ArtifexMayhem|ArtifexMayhem]] ([[User talk:ArtifexMayhem|talk]]) 18:06, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Just say "no" to Dogs. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 19:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

== Not saying fuck ==

My read of the ANI thread that just closed was that you were directed not to be mean to quacks, lest they get their preciously little fee fees hurt. It was also reasonably well acknowledged that there's no reason for DMSBell or Captain Occham to overlap with you.

If you find DMSBell or CO overlapping with you, at all, please just contact one of your friendly neighborhood concerned users, as opposed to being mean to them. Especially do not use the fucking word fuck.

Best wishes! [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] ([[User talk:Hipocrite|talk]]) 14:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
:Sure. I'll not say the fucking fuck word to them. :) Can I have a list of friendly neighborhood concerned users? LOL[[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 17:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

:: I'd start with '''Short Brigade''' (bolded for emphasis), Myself, MathSci, MastCell, Doc James, but basically anyone you have found is reasonably clueful and go with "I don't know why xxx is interacting with me." [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] ([[User talk:Hipocrite|talk]]) 17:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
:::We just call him Boris. LOL. He's a more civil curmudgeon than I am. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 17:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
* You can contact me whenever, but I'll give you the same advice I'm going to give you now. Why care about the opinions of people you don't respect? Captain Occam hasn't edited an article since early July, but he's made nearly 60 posts to [[WP:AN/I]] in the past 48 hours alone. You need to learn to ignore people like that.<p>You know how [[WP:CIVIL]] works on this site. It's perfectly [[WP:CIVIL]] to insinuate that someone is manipulating a life-threatening illness to influence an ArbCom case. To understand why that's offensive would require maturity and empathy, qualities which (while thankfully well-represented on ArbCom) are conspicuously lacking in the community at large. On the other hand, rearranging someone's username to include the word "Cumface" is the sort of playground-level insult that's right in the community's wheelhouse. Most people here can grasp the latter form of incivility, but aren't capable of grasping the former. Just let it go - you'll be happier, and it will frustrate the professional litigators and drama-mongers.<p>There are a lot of good people here - like Alison and Maunus, for example. If they criticize you, it's worth listening respectfully, even if you end up disagreeing with them. The trick is to separate that sort of constructive criticism from the more petty, insignificant stuff, and not to paint both with the same brush. OK, I've reached my quota of pompous moralizing for the day. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 20:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
**I swear to Darwin that sometimes I have difficulty sorting out your snark from your serious. Oh wait, maybe I shouldn't. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 22:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

* Despite everything, I do hope you stick with Wikipedia after deciding to use 'fuck' in only an abstract manner. [[User:ImperfectlyInformed|<span style="font-family: Times">II</span>]] | ([[User_talk:ImperfectlyInformed|t]] - [[Special:Contributions/ImperfectlyInformed|c]]) 02:11, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

== Blocked ==

I can't believe I posted on this page and completely missed [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Orangemarlin&diff=prev&oldid=463587503 this edit]. OrangeMarlin, I'm quite possibly one of the most tolerant administrator/arbitrator going, but this is so far beyond the pale that even I can't find it acceptable.

Clean up your act. This sort of stuff isn't acceptable, even if you're upset and angry. If you're that ticked off, turn off the computer and walk away. I know you are perfectly capable of doing it. When you are prepared to edit without this sort of histrionic personal attack, let me know and I'll be happy to unblock you. Until then, take a break. [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 23:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
:Punitive blocks will, of course, have a lot of effect. Oh well. You do realize, I wrote that 2 weeks ago. No one cared. But Wikipedia works on the whims of individuals rather than on anything logical. Because, Jclemens can, of course, say that I'm a liar, cheater, and basic horrible person, but I can't call him what he is. Works for me. Editing Wikipedia is for others, not for me. Unless someone is paying me for this gig, then my bill is in the mail. [[User:Orangemarlin|<font color="orange">'''Orange'''</font><font color="teal">'''Marlin'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Orangemarlin|Talk•]] [[Special:Contributions/Orangemarlin|Contributions]]</sup></small> 23:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
::Risker, for the record, Orangemarlin [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=465204817 did rephrase his complaint sans swearwords] here. [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 00:22, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
: OM -
: I don't think Jclemens was intentionally out to get you here, but I saw a fair amount of other baiting and so forth.
: It's not being ignored. Nothing may have happened yet, but it's not even vaguely being ignored.
: I would like to second Risker's comment that you should take a break and then come back. You have stuff of value to do here that you seem to like doing. I hope and expect you can again in the future. [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] ([[User talk:Georgewilliamherbert|talk]]) 02:32, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
::Jclemens is temperamentally unsuited to serving on Arbcom. He personalizes things far too much, especially for someone in a position of responsibility. Look at his comments not only to OM but to others, questioning their upbringing[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJclemens&action=historysubmit&diff=460155637&oldid=460134091] and so on, and his characterization of disagreement with his positions as "hate." [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 03:22, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
:::This whole thing is like Kafka wrote a short story about a Dali painting... [[User:Dbrodbeck|Dbrodbeck]] ([[User talk:Dbrodbeck|talk]]) 03:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Short Brigade Harvester Boris, you had the opportunity to counsel Orangemarlin to change his ways. The [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AOrangemarlin&action=historysubmit&diff=463602517&oldid=463601521 way] you chose to do that, interestingly enough, focuses not on the impropriety of his comments, but on the possible ''political'' effects of Orangemarlin's conduct. Why is that? [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 03:53, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
::::When trying to get people to change their ways I find it often effective to appeal to their own interests. Perhaps you are more accustomed to a world where people act solely from the purest of motives and loftiest of principles, but I have yet to experience such a wonderful place. [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 04:06, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
*Those who are concerned about the apparent imbalance in this block should note my recent edits and block log. [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 03:56, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
**Yes, this is Arbcom's usual procedure of randomly banning a few from each side ''pour encourager les autres'' while leaving the [[User:Jclemens|more difficult issues]] unaddressed. [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 04:11, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
***Jclemens has put himself before the community in running again for the committee. The community will have the ultimate say on that point. [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 04:17, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
***So do enlighten everyone... how am *I* the problem here? Did I make Orangemarlin say or do anything? Did I respond in kind to his gratuitous personal attacks? No, all I did was point out how his editing with respect to a single topic area had failed to uphold basic standards of civility. In doing so, I followed the established arbitration processes, provided diffs, and made a case that action should be taken. None was, and I've tried to be a gracious loser and disengage from the topic, carefully ignoring the most vehement personal attack ever made against me by an established editor, only to find that pro-Orangemarlin partisans are blaming ''me'' for the deterioration in his conduct. I'm sorry that he's facing health problems, for his sake, and I'm sorry that he's not able to edit Wikipedia with even the most basic civility, again, for his sake, although also for the damage it has done to civil discourse. [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 04:24, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
****I suggest that Jclemens review his own edits of 24 November to find the answer to his own question. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 05:58, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
*****[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion/Proposed_decision&diff=prev&oldid=462283607 this] one, perhaps? I made several edits that day, none of which strike me as particularly erroneous. I get that some people disagree with my principle that on-wiki processes should not wait indefinitely for off-wiki circumstances, but I simply do not get why the implication that I must wish Orangemarlin ill will for pointing out his inappropriate behavior while he was away. [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 07:57, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
****The inability to recognize and accept ones own errors is highly undesirable in an Arb. --[[User:Stephan Schulz|Stephan Schulz]] ([[User talk:Stephan Schulz|talk]]) 06:59, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
*****I entirely agree, but I don't see the relevance. [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 07:57, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
******'''Wow.''' That's ''precisely'' the problem. Your fellow bear poker has just been banned for a year, and the bear has been indeffed. How about you? [[User:Hans Adler|Hans]] [[User talk:Hans Adler|Adler]] 08:33, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::: It is nice to see the arbs looking out for one another, no? [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley|talk]]) 09:21, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::::I wouldn't tar them all with that brush. Both Casliber and Bishonen subsequently took JC to task for the post he linked above, though perhaps not as forcefully as I think it merits. JC wrote:{{quote|::***'''Editors are responsible for their own editing''', essentially indefinitely, but especially in a proximate ArbCom case. Whether they're inebriated, emotionally disturbed, mentally incompetent, suffering physical pain, facing their own mortality... none of these external circumstances (and to be clear, I am not implying that any or all of these apply to Orangemarlin, although I know of several other cases where one or more has applied...) absolve an editor from the responsibility to edit in an appropriate manner, which includes collegiality.}}
::::::::With these words, JC insinuates that OM's uncharacteristic and protracted cessation of editing was not, as OM said, due to [[force majeur]] but rather was an attempt to evade responsibility for his spring outburst. Evidently not willing to be responsible for ''his own'' words, JC's insinuation was carefully guarded, baiting OM's recent comment on cowardice. While that comment was put in OM's usual colourful language, there should be no doubt that it was the cowardice charge which got the reaction. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 14:29, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::No, actually. All I said was ''it doesn't matter'', which is the position I continue to hold to this day. As an admin or an ArbCom member, my responsibility is to the project, which is impacted by such incivility, and not to the editor who may have legitimate IRL reasons for failing to conduct himself or herself appropriately. I'm sorry that some of you ''do'' think it matters; I think that position is incompatible with being an impartial referee, because that places ArbCom in the position of e.g. collecting doctor's notes from disputants, which is abhorrent from a privacy perspective, or simply taking everyone at their word, which has been our de facto recent course and given us a disproportionate number of editors who have been "unable" to participate in cases. I'm not sure how "I don't care" got morphed into "I don't believe him", but allow me to elaborate a bit: I've worked in security enforcement for 10+ years, and medicine for 5.5. If there's an excuse for a behavior, I've heard it. I've seen people dying, seen people on the brink of losing their jobs, or going to jail, and none of it compels me to treat people differently. If some folks just can't understand the concept of impartiality... I'm not sure how I can help you. [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 14:52, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::I've read this line about 30 times now and taken out of the context of that ArbCom it is saying that even though you maybe dying there is no reason to be uncivil on WP. We have to hit enter before we post and we can always walk away from the computer. No one here is responsible for my illness, insobriety, tiredness or mental deficit. It's on me. [[User:Alatari|Alatari]] ([[User talk:Alatari|talk]]) 15:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::Let's continue discussing [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion/Proposed_decision&diff=prev&oldid=462283607 this edit] of yours. As you said there, "Edits speak for themselves", and "Editors are responsible for their own editing". Following your own words, it simply does not matter what you were full of when you wrote that because your edit must stand on its own. So let's see what it says:
::::::::::* "Whether they're inebriated, emotionally disturbed, mentally incompetent, suffering physical pain, facing their own mortality... none of these external circumstances (and to be clear, I am not implying that any or all of these apply to Orangemarlin, although I know of several other cases where one or more has applied...) absolve an editor from the responsibility to edit in an appropriate manner, which includes collegiality." – I will try to ignore the fact that this paints a picture of an organisation that is so dehumanised that I would not want to have anything to do with it. I will instead pick out some parts and highlight some to show Orangemarlin was bound to explode:
:::::::::::* "Whether they're [...] suffering physical pain, facing their own mortality... none of these [...] (and [...] I am ''not'' implying that any [...] of these apply to Orangemarlin [...])" – sounds like an insinuation that Orangemarlin is dissembling, especially in the context of the entire thread, for which Risker has meanwhile indeffed [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Captain_Occam&diff=prev&oldid=465582218] the person who started it.
:::::::::::* "Whether they're inebriated, emotionally disturbed, mentally incompetent [...] (and [...] I am not ''implying'' that any ''or all'' of these apply to Orangemarlin, ''although'' [...]" – sounds like an insinuation that Orangemarlin is drunk and mad in two technical senses of the word.
::::::::::* The rest of your post shows an amazing imbalance between your consideration of speedy justice in comparison to other procedural rights, especially in the light of the following:
:::::::::::* Was there really such a big difference between (1) an immediate indef topic ban and (2) "potential remedies are suspended [...] instructed to contact [...] before participating in the topic area" plus most arbitrators making it clear that the reason they didn't support the indef topic ban instead was OM's absence?
:::::::::::* Orangemarlin isn't just a random user with civility problem but one who was subject to a massive breach of natural rights in a 2008 secret Arbcom case that caused a scandal. At the time, Arbcom [[WP:Requests for arbitration/Orangemarlin|took collective responsibility]], although I am getting the impression that history is gradually being rewritten.
::::::::::[[User:Hans Adler|Hans]] [[User talk:Hans Adler|Adler]] 16:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::Except, Hans, that you're not taking my edits on their own: you've added all sorts of assumptions on my motivation, which are completely incorrect. In positing why I brought up other behaviors that aren't excuses for poor conduct, I suppose it is ''possible'' to assume that I am speaking about OM, but that would require a large dose of [[WP:ABF]]. The more straightforward (and actually correct) interpretation would be to surmise that I am talking about other editors whom I have encountered in the last 3+ years as an administrator, or my current term as arbitrator. Each problem, including OM's personal attacks, needs to be solved in a way that takes second- and third-order effects into consideration and does the right thing for the encyclopedia. You're entitled to disagree with me, of course, but I find the level of personal antimosity directed at me for trying to do the right thing for Wikipedia inappropriate. [[User:Jclemens-public|Jclemens-public]] ([[User talk:Jclemens-public|talk]]) 16:38, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::::(1) It is not just "''possible'' to assume" that you were talking about Orangemarlin. That's a stupid excuse. The entire thread was about Orangemarlin and nobody else. (2) Are you going to respond to my second point, concerning relative weight of speedy process and other fair hearing? [[User:Hans Adler|Hans]] [[User talk:Hans Adler|Adler]] 16:47, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::::(1) You have the right not to believe me, but I'm still not convinced that's actually a reasonable interpretation of what I said. I'm OK with us disagreeing on that. (2) That would be an entirely separate discussion, which I'm not loath to have, but wonder if here is the right venue for it. I've been keeping this conversation here because it's the only place Orangemarlin can participate. Want to move this facet to somewhere else? How about my talk page? [[User:Jclemens-public|Jclemens-public]] ([[User talk:Jclemens-public|talk]])
::::::::::::(ec)Talking about "the right thing for Wikipedia" as if God (or at least a god) deposited it, unfailingly, directly into your consciousness, is what I think of as a large part of the problem. I typically find your analysis (as fas as I can see it) shallow and missing the point. We probably also disagree about what's "the right thing for Wikipedia". That's not perfect, but not, in itself, too much of a problem. We all err. But you deliver the flawed result of that process like Moses bringing down the ten commandments from Mount Sinai. That is a problem. Or, as someone else put it, "If you haven't changed your mind in 5 years, it's time to check your pulse. You might be dead." --[[User:Stephan Schulz|Stephan Schulz]] ([[User talk:Stephan Schulz|talk]]) 16:53, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::::If it's not obvious that "the right thing for Wikipedia" is a personal opinion, I'm not sure what would be. Yes, I have beliefs about what is right and wrong for Wikipedia. I don't go about prefacing every opinion I state with "In my opinion...". I ''do'' abide by consensus when it's against me, but I reserve the right to continue to believe that my way is better, just like I do to change my mind. Just because I was outvoted on a sanction doesn't mean I have to go reexamine my core principles and repent of them. ArbCom is not a hive-mind, and disagreements amongst the committee keep the dialogue fresh and lively. Indeed, among the only thing we all have in common is a desire for the project's greater good that exceeds our individual egos. [[User:Jclemens-public|Jclemens-public]] ([[User talk:Jclemens-public|talk]]) 00:57, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Whilst OrangeMarlin's incivility has merited a permablock for years, I find it sad that it is only when his incivility is directed at an arbcom that anything happens.-- cheers, [[User:Michael C Price|Michael C. Price]] <sup>[[User talk:Michael C Price|talk]]</sup> 08:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
:Precisely. It was my opinion for years that OM needs indeffed, and in fact at some point he stopped editing while I was preparing an RfC/U on him. (To be fair, during these preparations I first found that he can also be a relatively nice and companionable editor and act rationally in disagreements.) As far as I can tell, his behaviour has been much better recently. The main thing that is new here is the unethical behaviour of an arbitrator as a publicity stunt in his attempt to get re-elected. (Or maybe Jclemens is always like that. Then it's even worse.) It was absolutely predictable that this would lead to such outbursts. The one-year ban for Captain Occam is very encouraging, but I really hope Arbcom is not going to take the position that merely not being re-elected is enough feedback for Jclemens. (Jokers like NWA.Rep might get the message that such a candidacy is a get-out-of-jail-free card.) [[User:Hans Adler|Hans]] [[User talk:Hans Adler|Adler]] 08:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
::Our paths cross on the talk pages of contentious medical articles and I, too, have noticed more patience and politeness in OM's dealings with POV pushers lately. His reaction toward Jclemens and Captain Occam was a little over the top, but not by much. --[[User:Anthonyhcole|Anthonyhcole]] ([[User talk:Anthonyhcole|talk]]) 10:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)


{{od}}
Only on Wikipedia do you find EMT-B's and Nurses lecturing people with serious medical issues about how they deserve no sympathy. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] ([[User talk:Hipocrite|talk]]) 14:59, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
:Yes. On the other hand the practice of stating something while simultaneously declaiming that "it doesn't matter" crops up IRL too. Although I am sadly unsurprised that JC doesn't acknowledge the hypocrisy in such statements, it is none the less evident on both faces. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 15:57, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
::This is OM's statement from 2008 ''I will not make any excuses--that RfAR has opened my eyes to what I've done right and what I've done wrong; it is clear that I've tested the patience of this community, and the goodwill I have created through adding to the project is being eroded by my behavior. It is time to end this drama, and to move on.'' but after mentoring by JPGordon and 3 years time he was still involved in 11 ANI cases against his behavior. He had a lot of forewarning, allowances made by the community, a lot of crisis moments in order to avert this outcome. How can anyone argue that he's not responsible for this outcome? [[User:Alatari|Alatari]] ([[User talk:Alatari|talk]]) 16:33, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Re LeadSongDog's mention of me [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Orangemarlin&diff=465641671&oldid=465618890 above]: I'm not an arb. Glad to be noticed, though. I also took JC to task on his election questions talkpage, and I've been as forceful as I know how (perhaps not saying much, OK). But I and others who prefer to only say things once are liable to get drowned out amongst all JC's variations on his ''Nobody understands me, it'll probably help if I say it again'' theme. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] &#124; [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 01:42, 14 December 2011 (UTC).
:My error, sorry to leave that impression. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 04:32, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

== Have a Wolf lick ==

{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Raven_Greeting.jpg|100px]]
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Wolfly lick it better wossname'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Anyone with ongoing health issues has my heartfelt sympathy! And liars should be nuked on sight. But possibly not in here, where there are repercussions. Can't help liking you despite your prickles :o) [[User:ThatPeskyCommoner| <span style="color:#003300; font-family: cursive;">'''Pesky'''</span>]] ([[User talk:ThatPeskyCommoner|<span style="color:#336600;">talk</span>]] …[[Special:Contributions/ThatPeskyCommoner|''stalk!'']]) 06:38, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
|}

== Big Bad Blues ==

...
{{sc|<poem>Say what you want
Never say what you will
Jack of Diamonds
Is built for the kill
One to the head
Sister, one to the heart
When you start
Without mercy or art

Jack of Diamonds
He got only one eye
Lost the other
In a bedroom fight
Good night's work
Never said goodbye
Just don't walk
In the dark of the night

Big bad blues
Keep rolling along
Never found a place
Where I belong
Never been right
But it turned out wrong
So hold on tight
While I sing my song
...
[http://www.tristudios.com/default/index/detail/id/26 Big Bad Blues {{bull}} Bob Weir]
</poem>}}
*Joke 'em if they can't take a fuck. {{mdash}}[[User:ArtifexMayhem|ArtifexMayhem]] ([[User talk:ArtifexMayhem|talk]]) 10:53, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

== Welcome to Kentucky ==

And enjoy your stay.[http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/12/kentucky-evolution-challenge.html] Sorry to hear about your block. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 20:28, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

{{Quote box|width=30%|quote=The antecedents of today's decision are many, and unmistakable. They are rooted in the foundation soil of our Nation. They are fundamental to freedom.<br/><br/>Government in our democracy, state and national, must be neutral in matters of religious theory, doctrine,and practice. It may not be hostile to any religion or to the advocacy of no-religion, and it may not aid, foster, or promote one religion or religious theory against another or even against the militant opposite. The First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion.<br/><br/>As early as 1872, this Court said: "The law knows no heresy, and is committed to the support of no dogma, the establishment of no sect."|salign = right|source={{mdash}}SCOTUS [[Epperson v. Arkansas|393 US 97]] at 103 (1968)}}
:Dude! Talk about kicking a man when he's down. I'd say school <s>Dickweed</s> Superintendent <s>Dicky R.</s> Ricky D. Line needs to take a long ride on the clue bus (probably the shorter one) with a copy of Amendment Uno and a firm reminder that the Supremes are the final arbiters of what it means. Jeepers, it's like 2012 already Dick..er..Rick. {{ndash}}[[User:ArtifexMayhem|ArtifexMayhem]] ([[User talk:ArtifexMayhem|talk]]) 22:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
::Blechh! No, guys, religion belongs in the R.E. class, science belongs in the science class. I'm sure you must have seen [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq4Srd0P2k0 this one], OM, but here it is again for your stalkers! [[User:ThatPeskyCommoner| <span style="color:#003300; font-family: cursive;">'''Pesky'''</span>]] ([[User talk:ThatPeskyCommoner|<span style="color:#336600;">talk</span>]] …[[Special:Contributions/ThatPeskyCommoner|''stalk!'']]) 07:36, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

== Well done ==

Well done on the Burzynski article. You've done Wikipedia proud, dealing with bashers and boosters equally firmly. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 22:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

== [[Evolution as fact and theory]] ==

Hi-- I've added a few comments to the talkpage for this article, and invite you to take a look. Thanks. I'm sorry to see that you have been blocked. Can you still respond on talkpages? [[User:Milkunderwood|Milkunderwood]] ([[User talk:Milkunderwood|talk]]) 19:14, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:38, 21 June 2012

Retired
This user is no longer active on Wikipedia.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Orangemarlin&oldid=498714535"