Talk:Swift Vets and POWs for Truth

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Introduction

Apparently the ideologues have been at play since my last visit and the opening paragraph (which had been acceptable to all for quite some time) was changed to reflect POV negative connotations. Characterizing the SBVT's initiative as an attempt to "discredit" John Kerry's military service is not only innaccurate and disputable but decidedly POV with obvious negative connotations. With thanks to James Lane for the refresher course... JakeInJoisey 04:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted James Lane's edit in an attempt to find some common ground as a starting point for what I can only describe as the gratuitous POV editing of (as I recall) an opening paragraph which a general consensus found to be acceptable for quite some time. I'll research more tomorrow for specifics and documentation but it seems apparent there are those not content to leave well enough alone. JakeInJoisey 04:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

You are mistaken. Derex 18:11, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

"You are mistaken" hardly qualifies as justification for an edit by anyone's definition. Please direct me to your justification for this edit. JakeInJoisey 18:21, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It's considerably more lucid, and less obnoxious, than "Apparently the ideologues have been at play since my last visit" .... But, it was very nice of you to revert James "in an attempt to find some common ground as a starting point". You're a swell guy. Derex 18:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Your opinion or my opinion as to the motivation of editors is irrelevant to the process itself. Please provide justification or a link to justification for your edit or I will revert to what was a consensus opening paragraph arrived at quite some time ago. JakeInJoisey 18:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, we do not have a consensus for either version. Please discuss the merits of your change before further engaging in a revert war. Derex 19:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, I myself expressed no opinion whatsoever as to anyone's motivations. But you are indeed correct that your expressed opinion is wholly irrelevant. Derex 19:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Jake, my edit summary said, 'I don't care about "discrediting" but the lead needs to note that SBVT focused on Kerry's military record (as opposed to his tax policy or whatever)'. That's the justification. Derex made the same point in his ES. You've provided no explanation except your assertion that the article didn't always read that way. No, it didn't. It's been improved. The specific issue of whether the lead section should particularize SBVT's attack on Kerry hasn't been the subject of discussion, as far as I remember, so it's misleading to imply that there was a prior consensus on the point. A dozen or so people have edited the article since that description was added. We've tried to accommodate you by removing the word "discrediting" (though, to my mind, it's perfectly accurate). If you think the current text reflects a bias, please explain why. JamesMLane t c 14:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

As I already stated, I have no objection to re-considering the opening paragraph, but you offer no justification other than your assertion that it "needs to note that SBVT focused on Kerry's military record" (which, I would also argue, is an inaccurate descriptive in and of itself.) Why, exactly, does the introduction "need to note" that? At what point do you draw the line as to introductory content? Isn't it more prudent for the sake of introductory conciseness to assume that a reader is, at least, somewhat familiar with the nature of this rather hi-profile controversy? I'm all-modem...please elucidate.

I am also somewhat puzzled as to why this "necessary" edit wasn't somehow addressed by you in earlier deliberations in which you were a rather vocal participant. In fact (if my research is accurate), the opening paragraph has remained essentially the same since it was edited by Derex on 17 September 2005, Revision as of 19:43. (I've not yet identified the date of it's original composition or editor). Now, you may assert that there was no consensus, but I'd offer that, in an article with this level of contention, 7 months of survival is a rather remarkable period of longevity.

As to whether I stated or implied some bias in YOUR text, please read my statement more carefully. My remarks were directed towards the edit (and the editor) containing the word "discrediting" and I appreciate your apparent concurrence as to it's NPOV? character. (On edit: Re-reading my note, I was unclear as to my POV objection. It didn't apply to your subsequent edit. I am objecting to your edit on the grounds that it is an unwarranted expansion of the introductory)

Pending further discussion, I'm reverting to the version that achieved agreement (at least between Derex and myself) on 17 Sep, 2005 and remained essentially unaltered up to the date of this most recent editing adventure.JakeInJoisey 19:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

It needs to note that because this is an article intended to convey information. And that is what the Swift Vets did — they criticized Kerry's actions regarding the war. That is why they are notable, and that is why an article exists on them. Wikipedia articles should serve the reader, and you need to indicate how removal of this fundamental part of the SBVT's prominence from the lede serves the reader. Derex 20:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I have my own opinion as to what this article, as currently comprised, is intended to do, but that's another matter altogether. Be that as it may, I assure you that your perception of "what the Swiftvets did" and "why they are notable" varies considerably from mine and I will do my best to see that opinion also reflected in any consensus expansion of the introductory. But that's placing the cart before the horse...

What serves the reader is logical presentation of facts, conciseness and good writing. I am at a loss to understand how such a "fundamental" element of the introductory managed to escape the purview of dedicated editors such as yourself and JML during the 7 months of its existence. I'm unconvinced by your argument that it's "fundamental" at all and any expansion of the already well-written introductory is unnecessary, unwarranted and to the detriment of the article.

edit: I noted that you reverted again. Please do me the courtesy of allowing JML (the author of the edit) and I to continue this discussion to its conclusion. I have disputed JML's edit and I expect he is more than capable of responding to my objection without your assistance. Until such time, please refrain from arbitrarily inserting your voice or your edits in a dispute between the 2 principles involved. You'll have ample opportunity for your own skirmishes down the road. Reverting JakeInJoisey 21:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

James is well more than able to defend his own position — honestly it's a marvel to behold, which I wouldn't say about anyone else here. Nevertheless, I've seen little enough courtesy, and asking a fellow editor to shut up is hardly a start. I'd be more than happy to agree with your edit, if you'd make a cogent case for it. You have not done so, in fact you haven't even made a weak case for it; perhaps an empty case. Derex 00:38, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Very well. I have added the "Controversial Topic" template to this talk page. Please refrain from marking anymore of your substantive reverts as "minor" for the forseeable future.JakeInJoisey 02:30, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Alright then. Since I trust him, and since you prefer to talk to him, I'll let you and James sort it out for now. That's so long as you do it here on Talk, rather than by attempted fiat on the article. Revert wars are frowned upon, but I have such a terribly strong aversion to bullying attempts that I am quite willing to sin. Derex 03:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Background

• The following entry mis-states and factually misrepresents SBVT's "assertions" and mandates revision...

SBVT asserted that Kerry was "unfit to serve" as president based on his wartime conduct and later activism in the anti-Vietnam war movement.

What the SBVT "asserts" is what they say they assert, and they are quite specific about it...

It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us). Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war. Letter to John Kerry, May 04 2004

Their assertion of unfitness is NOT based on some generalized notion of "wartime conduct" but specifically on their allegation that he "withheld and/or distorted material facts" as to his own conduct in that war.

Nor is it factually accurate that SBVT asserted Kerry was unfit because of his anti-Vietnam War "activism". Their allegation is that he "grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct" of American servicemen in that war during that period of activism.

I offer the following edit...

SBVT asserted that Kerry was "unfit to serve" as president based upon his alleged willful distortion of the conduct of American servicemen during that war and his alleged withholding and/or distortion of material facts as to his own conduct during that war JakeInJoisey 19:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

• The following entry warrants editing as it presents an opinion as to the rationale for the "tremendous" controversy" that is decidedly POV and contains numerous factual errors.

This claim caused tremendous controversy during the election, particularly because the veterans were perceived as partisans who had not been in a place to assess Kerry, while several other Vietnam veterans who served alongside Kerry or under his command disputed the criticisms and supported Kerry in his presidential aspirations.

• • First, one might easily and quite legitimately posit that the "cause" of the "tremendous controversy" was the nature and credibility of the allegations themselves. That the controversy ensued because the SBVT was "partisan" is arguable at best and decidedly POV.
  • Second, to suggest that the veterans? (should read SBVT?) were universally "perceived as partisans" is absurd on it's face .
  • Third, a suggestion that none had been in a place to "assess Kerry" is factually erroneous.

Comments please? JakeInJoisey 19:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

• The following entry mandates editing as it contains an error of fact.

In their initial letter, SBVT stated "Kerry's phony war crimes charges, his exaggerated claims about his own service in Vietnam, and his deliberate misrepresentation of the nature and effectiveness of Swift boat operations compels [sic] us to step forward."

The above statement was not extracted from their initial letter but from the opening page of their website. Also, the grammatical error has apparently been corrected. I will make the correction with an appropriate link. JakeInJoisey 19:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

• The following is transparently POV and mandates correction...

After the election, the group was praised by conservatives for contributing to the success of the George W. Bush campaign, while critics consider the group an example of a successful political smear campaign.

This entry is a transparent POV attempt to lend credibility to the allegation of SBVT direct ties to George Bush in the guise of a "balance" to the insertion of the "smear" allegation.

Let's play fair here with a compromise of a sort.

After the election, the group was credited by media and praised byconservatives for contributing to the defeat of John Kerry, while critics consider the group an example of a successful political smear campaign. JakeInJoisey 19:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I also included a link for the part about "conservatives" thinking SBVT helped win the election - but I think it is more accurate to say they think they helped defeat Kerry than that they helped GWB win, as JinJ points out - and a link for the view that SBVT was an example of a smear campaign. --EECEE 02:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks OK to me...amended JakeInJoisey 14:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi JinJ - Thanks for the cleanup. However, I think being "credited by the media" (with contributing to the defeat of JK), as opposed to "praised by conservatives" needs its own supporting link. The only "nonpolitical" articles I saw talked about Kerry's late response to SBVT being damaging to the campaign (for instance,: [1]), especially as the polls showed the ads had little effect on voter perception, but maybe you can find a few links out there? In addition, plenty of "media" also described it as a smear campaign, so if included maybe it should be included for both views. Your thoughts? EECEE 00:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd be interested in learning how one defines a "non-political" article (or source). I suspect that there's no such entity in contemporary media and it relates more to how you perceive whose ox is being regularly gored. Nor am I surprised that you choose as your example an article from the "Globe". Pardon my cynicism, but you might as well have sourced the NYT or the LAT as your example. Can we come down to earth a bit here EECEE?

Be that as it may, you appear to be arguing a finer point than the one currently being made. Perhaps you're objecting to the word "crediting" as some derivation of "commending"? If so, I believe you are mis-interpreting the use of the word, but I have no heartburn with looking for a suitable alternative. Whatever the terminology used, SBVT's impact on the election was factual (you might argue the degree) and needs to be recognized.

As to a link , quite coincidentally, here's an AP offering from today...

Kerry had hoped his military background would be a pillar of his 2004 presidential bid. But his campaign failed to effectively counter charges by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which attacked Kerry's war record.

I'd say that's a good example of "credited by the media" as having been a factor in Kerry's loss.

More likely, I assume, is your desire to attribute whatever "success" SBVT might have had to circumstance rather than substance (which, of course, is Kerry's position) but on that point I'm afraid we'd have to "go to the mattresses". Frankly I believe it would needlessly expand an already bloated "article" with more point/counterpoint...but I'll play if you wish.

As to some "media" refering to SBVT as a "smear", you are, of course, quite correct and I've no objection to recognizing that reality. The paragraph, quite obviously needs to be re-worked. JakeInJoisey 03:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think the example you chose actually underscores my point, which is that most media commentary says it was the tactical error of Kerry's failure to respond to the charges rather than the charges themselves that harmed his campaign. By "nonpolitical" articles I simply meant those not authored by someone trying to make a political point, as in a commentary at a political site. A "nonpolitical" article would be a noneditorial piece through a recognized news outlet. As is the Boston Globe, although in this case it is merely paraphrasing Kerry, so that probably wasn't the best example.

So if one wants to posit that the "media" credited SBVT itself - the substance of the claims, as you say - with contributing to his loss, one should provide some noneditorial, recognized media links to back it up. As I say, the only pieces I find put the blame at the tactical error of Kerry's ineffective response, not the substance of the SBVT claims themselves.

And yes, the paragraph needs to be reworked. EECEE 03:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

After some thought, I suggest we simplify the sentence to reflect the important distinctions. Maybe something like this:

Some consider the group, or Kerry's slow response to the group's claims, as a factor in his defeat in the 2004 election (links), while others consider the group an example of a successful political smear campaign (links).

Your thoughts? EECEE 16:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

When my time permits, I will respond to each of the points you raised above. As to your most recent suggested edit, I think we need to come to some resolution as to the issues raised above before deciding on suggested revisions. I will, hopefully, have something up this evening. JakeInJoisey 17:30, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

You've raised several points and I'll try to be responsive to all when time permits...

• Well, I think the example you chose actually underscores my point, which is that most media commentary says it was the tactical error of Kerry's failure to respond to the charges rather than the charges themselves that harmed his campaign.

Perhaps that's your (a?) point as well, but it addresses a different issue than the one we were initially discussing and about which, I thought, we had achieved consensus given your response of 14:55, 25 April 2006. Pardon me for saying so, but you appear to be moving the goalpost. You stated...

However, I think being "credited by the media" (with contributing to the defeat of JK), as opposed to "praised by conservatives" needs its own supporting link. The only "nonpolitical" articles I saw talked about Kerry's late response to SBVT being damaging to the campaign

I provided you a link that certainly appears to acknowledge consequence to the Kerry campaign without getting into the nature of that consequence, and that was just from yesterday. That one article alone appears to rebut your assertion.

Are you now suggesting that even an acknowledgement of SBVT consequence must be qualified by your rather vague and unsupported personal perception of what "most media commentary" stated to be the causation of that consequence? The very fact that you qualified it as "most media" implies that media opinion wasn't universal on that point and without supporting documentation would render your statement to POV supposition. Frankly, I don't know how you would legitimately quantify such an assertion.

What WAS universally held (I'll go out on a limb here) was that SBVT played a significant role in the outcome of the election and that's ALL that sentence is stating.

Nor, BTW, am I buying into your rather creative concept of the "nonpolitical" article. More on that when I can get to it. JakeInJoisey 03:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, let's recap. You introduced the idea that "media" drew a conclusion about the effect of the substance of the SBVT claims on Kerry's campaign. I suggested that any such statement should be supported by links to objective "media" sources. It is up to the person making the claim about media conclusions to provide the source. As I said, I have not seen anything that has suggested such a conclusion on the part of "media" (which in itself is a pretty generalized assumption, isn't it?); rather, what I have seen are discussions of the effect of Kerry's delayed, or ineffective, response to the SBVT claims.

The sentence you provide from the AP article has a subject - Kerry's campaign - and a predicate - "failed to effectively counter" -counter what? - the SBVT charges. The effect of that failure, according to the article? Kerry was hampered in capitalizing on his military background during the campaign. By whom or what? His campaign's ineffectiveness.

If one wants to claim that the media drew a direct connection between the substance of SBVT claims and Kerry's loss, one should provide a link or two that makes that direct connection.

So once again I suggest making the point a simple one. Some credit SBVT with contributing to Kerry's loss (links), while others view it as an example of a successful smear campaign (link). EECEE 06:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• Hi - I edited in a few places for accuracy, including deleting the part that states that some people thought the SBVT brought important views into public discussion (paraphrasing here), as there was no supporting evidence provided. If someone can provide some links showing that this was a perception of anyone without a political dog in the fight, I have no problem including it.--EECEE 02:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll reserve comment on the edit by 70.112.27.252 as it wasn't discussed here prior to edit. I posted a note on his/her talk page requesting compliance with the "controversial" template requirements. JakeInJoisey 15:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'll try to remember not to be so quick with the edit...without checking the talk page first at least. EECEE 00:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• By the way, am wondering if this whole paragraph really belongs in the FEC complaint section.--EECEE 02:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• Other edits: I don't think The Note actually "proclaimed" as much as stated what in fact appears to be a news summary.--EECEE 02:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• Also, I think the contradictory "contemporaneous" statements were by SBVT members rather than "supporters." For example, Schachte is a supporter, but his contradictory statements were made years later. --EECEE 02:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• I appreciate your response and, in order to keep some semblance of order here, I'm proposing that we use a bullet point to frame areas of discussion? I find it very cumbersome to be responsive in an orderly fashion to single paragraphs containing multiple subjects for discussion. With your indulgence, I've "bulleted" your points for comment as interested parties see fit. I'll add some input when time permits. Please feel free to revert or edit or suggest another alternative as you see fit.JakeInJoisey 04:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, anything that helps keeps things sorted is fine with me. Thanks. EECEE 07:22, 25 April 2006 (UTC)