Talk:Franklin D. Roosevelt

Plese don't insult Greatest Generation

I can deal with one person telling me that FDR "prolonged" the Great Depression. I can deal with it, but not without commenting. FDR did not prolong the Great Depression. Jsut ask anyone who acctually lived through it. What I cannot deal with is what saying that he prolonged it implies. It implies that the American voters who elected him to a history making four terms were stupid, to put it plainly. I know many people who lived during that era and I hold them in haigh regards. Please don't insult the Greatest Generation. If you do, I'll vote for Hoover! --Hstryin06 00:02, 3 May 2006 (UTC)Hstryin06

Another polemic argument from someone afraid of the facts. I will, yet again, point out that I am not defending FDR's political opponents, who were also misguided. The "Greatest Generation" left future generations with ponzi schemes, debts that still have not been paid, a culture of warring that could not possibly be paid for, and a belief that the government can afford to give you what you cannot earn for yourself. The "Greatest Generation" repeatedly voted for the man who hawked the future to correct the mistakes of the previous misguided administrations, while failing to correct the mistakes of the previous administrations. If such truth is insult, blame the creator of that truth, not the messenger. 01:02, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

No it doesn't mean the voters were stupid. At least not for the first term, because he ran on the Democratic platform which called for, "immediate and drastic reductions of all public expenditures," "abolishing useless commissions and offices, consolidating bureaus and eliminating extravagances reductions in bureaucracy," and for a "sound currency to be maintained at all hazards." Toward the end of his campaign he called to "Stop the deficits!" and said, "Before any man enters my cabinet he must give me a twofold pledge: absolute loyalty to the Democratic platform and especially to its economy plank." In a criticism of Hoover, he said, "I accuse the President of being the greatest spending administration in peace time in all American history --one which piled bureau on bureau, commission on commission… We are spending altogether too much money for government services which are neither practical or necessary." So, obviously, he lied. RJII 01:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

This is all idle speculation

No-one can know with an encyclopaedic degree of certainty what the course of the Depression would have been in FDR had not been President, or if he had applied different policies, so this is all just idle speculation. All the article can say is what he did do, and what respectable economic historians (not cranks and ideologues) have said about the effects of his policies. Adam 06:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Calling them "cranks and ideologues" won't quiet those whose facts you do not like. 206.124.31.221 06:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute

(no making NPOV disputes "go away" by hiding them and everything before them in history)

Objective readers will notice, if they read the article, and the talk page for the article, that the current version of the article could not possibly reflect neutral point of view. This is because two or three authors are repeatedly removing comments added to the article (no edits have been made by this contributor) by those who wish to show alternative points of view to those who would take every opportunity to overstate the flowery bouquet that they believe accompanied the FDR administration. Repeated attempts to balance the article have been obliterated, and a "fan-boy" attitude remains on the talk page for all to see. (signed after the fact) Mark 206.124.31.221 04:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Please sign your comments. Adam 04:08, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd also make the point that this is a biographical article about FDR, and not an article about the Depression or the New Deal. It should not be used as a battlefield for conflicting schools of economic thought. I haven't read right through this article for a while, but when I do I will remove any polemical, unsourced or unnecessarily detailed material. Adam 04:12, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course it is. Relevant claims have been made to the effect that alternative points of view have been censored. No one "owns" the article. I will remind you that I have not written or edited a word of the article. I am responding out of sympathy for people who are being censored. (signed) Mark 206.124.31.221 04:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Example:

"There was little violence, but most observers considered it remarkable that such an obvious breakdown of the capitalist system had not led to a rapid growth of fascism (as happened in Nazi Germany)."

This is not NPOV. I'll happily accept being in the minority, though I'd dare to say that the majority would not consider it an "obvious breakdown of the capitalist system."

I'm refraining from continuing in detail because, frankly, others have already pointed at bias, and I've already invested far too much time in this. The above is simply an example. Mark 206.124.31.221 04:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. That's very POV. What is "the capitalist system"? It certainly wasn't a laisser-faire system as capitalism is commonly defined today ("an economic system characterized by private or corporation ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision rather than by state control, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly in a free market. -Merriam Webster) What broke down was investor confidence, as a result of too much state intervention in the economy. Investors like free markets. RJII 04:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The sentence refered to most observers at the time thought, not what you think. In the 1930s most political debate rotated around the question of whether capitalism or socialism was the superior political/economic system. The Depression was seen at the time as a breakdown in the world capitalist system, which had promised everyone (particularly in the US) prosperity and freedom. In Europe masses of people turned to fascism or communism as alternatives to capitalism. What seemed remarkable at the time was that the American electorate, in the depths of the Depression, rejected these alternatives and elected FDR. Adam 04:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

If the Supreme Court didn't find the NRA and AAA as unconstitutional, then economic fascism is exactly what we would have. (see When the Supreme Court Stopped Economic Fascism in America) Because, that's obviously what FDR had planned. Sure, there were many that saw it as a "breakdown in the capitalist system" but there were also many others who saw it as due to mercantilism, high taxes, and the Fed. RJII 04:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

A) Then the phrasing is sloppy and does not correctly imply that the "obvious" was their POV. B) You better have references—and I don't mean two or three—if you're going to toss around "most observers." They also better not all be from the "same school" or they can't be "most." I'll guarantee you that Ludwig von Mises was not among them—nor, I'll bet—was he in the minority on that aspect of the issue. Mark 206.124.31.221 04:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, last point:

"As stated, I will go on deleting RJII's edits until he/she stops adding opinionated, trivial and unnecessary material to this article. (Why does this article attract so many cranks?) Adam 08:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)"

Your opinion is not necessarily so unbiased as that of the woman holding the scale of justice. The belief that you have the truth and others are opinionated is very dangerous. Mark 206.124.31.221 05:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I see this article is being taken over by cranks (again). Crank edits will be ruthlessly reverted. Adam 05:12, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Listen, <omitted>. I haven't edited a single word, so stash your paranoia. I'm just showing you for what you are.

SIEG HEIL! 206.124.31.221 05:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

QED. Adam 05:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Unless you're referring to yourself, you're misusing it. You proved my point. 206.124.31.221 06:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

While I am generally reluctant to interfere in discussions of this nature, I would like to point our anonymous contributor toward our articles on Godwin's Law and reductio ad Hitlerum. We do at least try to rise above normal internet debating standards around here. ～J.K. 01:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Point taken. I refer the readers to the article on censorship, the use of which provoked the comment. 01:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Point of fact related to NPOV, the NPOV tag was arbitrarily removed, without comment. I replaced it. 04:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposal for "Private crisis" and "Marriage and children" sections

I'd like to make the article more logically organized by: 1) moving first two paragraphs (concerning Roosevelt's marital crisis and extra-marital affairs) of "Private crisis" into "Marriage and children", and 2) renaming "Private crisis" to "Paralytic illness", since the remaining three paragraphs of "Private crisis" are about his illness. Another advantage of renaming the section is that we could eventually shorten the "Paralytic illness" section and have a separate wikipedia article with more detail on FDR's illness. Dagoldman 06:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)