Talk:Bill Shankly/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Meetthefeebles (talk · contribs) 14:25, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll review. Before I do so, I notice that the article was nominated by an IP, rather than a registered user. Can I just check that there is someone available to respond to any issues? A little note on this page will suffice...Meetthefeebles (talk) 14:25, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I have an hour spare after work here, so I'll make a start:

• Disambiguation Links: None found
  
• Dead Links: All fine on the checking tool, will comment further when spot-checking refs later.
  
• Quick Fail issues: No evidence of edit-warring, lots of references, no cleanup banners that I can see at first read, no ongoing content issues (subject has been dead for decades now).
  
• Images: The infobox image is licensed under the fair use license and is probably okay, the memorial image is from geograph and is fine, the Shankly scarf img is also fair use licensed and is probably okay (though the link to the original source is dead) and the Shankly statute img is from flickr and is fine as licensed.

Okay, I'll work my way through the article and add comments below:

• The lead is okay, but I'd like to see some mention perhaps of his early life. If it relevant and interesting enough to have a detailed section on it (and it is, having now read it), then a note in the lead might be best. Suggest adding something to the start of paragraph two? (Something like "Shankly, one of five brothers who played football professionally, was a ball winning right hal..." or somthing similar)
• FA Cup is blue-linked twice in the lead. Once will suffice and one should be removed. Ditto Football League First Division (per WP:OVERLINK).
• Suggest slight rewrite to sentence "Shankly's parents, John and Barbara lived in one of the Auchenstilloch Cottages with their family of ten, five boys and five girls" Perhaps "Shankly's parent, John and Barbara, lived in one of the Auchenstilloch Cottages with their ten children; five boys and five girls."?
• I don't think postman needs to be blue-linked. Suggest removal.
• "Preston recovered by reaching the 1938 FA Cup Final in which they defeated Huddersfield Town 1–0 with a penalty scored by George Mutch in the final minute of extra time." Suggest a slight rewrite to start of the sentence (I'm not sure a team recovers by reaching a cup final two years after losing one); "Preston recovered to reach the..." would be better I think?
• Can we add his boxing weights to a conversion template and state in pounds and kg instead of stones? Perhaps use 159 pounds (72 kg) and 6 pounds (2.7 kg)? This would assist the reader not familiar with British imperial measurements of weight.
• Suggest blue-linking WRAF.
• "The great Tom Finney": this is probably WP:PEACOCK (though as a football fan I agree that Tom Finney was, in fact, great!), and the peacock word should be removed.
• Remove the 'But' from the sentence "But Shankly's departure from Preston was resented...".
• Another small suggestion: "He made a speculative shot goalwards from 50 yards and the ball bounced over the England goalkeeper's head and into the net." "Making a speculative shot" sounds a bit odd; suggest simply "He took a speculative shot goalwards..."
• This little section is a little odd. On the one hand, Shankly's goal does sound unusual, but to describe it as "probably the strangest national goal ever" seems like hyperbole even if the source is reliable (and this one seems to be, just). I'm also not really sure what the 'Joe Mercer identification on the tele' adds to the article or why his having spotted him is notable or deserving of a quotation stating that he was so spotted.
• "Shankly was famous for his dedication to football. For example, during the summer of 1933 after completing his first season as a professional, he returned to Glenbuck where he continued to do his own training. Being an early exponent of the long throw-in he would practice by throwing balls over a row of houses and getting the small boys of the village to fetch them back for him" This sentence is a verbatim reproduction of a paragraph in the source material (at ref.23) and requires an urgent rewrite using close paraphrasing (and maintaining the reference link to the original) to prevent a copyright issue arising.
• Where in ref.53 does it state anything to the effect that "Without him, Carlisle slipped back into non-contention"? That sentence either needs some proper support or should be removed.
• I am not sure that "pick up a few bargain buys" is an encyclopedic phrase. Suggest a slight rewrite; "some players for low transfer fees" or similar, perhaps?
• "but finished second, only three points...": the 'only' is a touch WP:PEACOCK and borderline contrary WP:NPOV. Suggest removal.
• "Shankly insisted that his Grimsby team was: "Pound for pound, and class for class, the best football team I have seen in England since the war. In the league they were in they played football nobody else could play. Everything was measured, planned and perfected and you could not wish to see more entertaining football". This seems odd considering his team had were playing in the third division and had failed to win promotion; is it likely that Shankly's view that his side was that good is reliable? I think Bill might have been a little biased in his view here and for balance a reliable, third party viewpoint on the merits of his Grimsby side would help ensure WP:NPOV
• "Shankly also had...a successful method of counter-attacking from corners conceded..." Again, is Bill a reliable source on how 'successful' his own counter-attacking method was? A reliable, third party source would be much better here.
• Just reading "Grimsby had an ageing team which finished a disappointing 5th in 1952–53 after a bright start." highlights my concern re: the early 'pound for pound and class for class' quote. Either they played football no-one else could play, measured planned and perfected (in Bill's opinion) or they were an ageing side who failed again to win promotion the very next season (in Kelly's opinion). It is difficult to see how they can be both.
• "Although Workington is a remote place in football terms": this could do with a reference.
• "But Workington operated on a shoestring..." The 'But' is superfluous- suggest removal.
• "The situation led to "numerous arguments"." This sentence lacks context: with who was he arguing? The manager of the rugby team? The players? The board?
• Describing Ray Wilson and Dennis Law as 'outstanding' is again probably WP:PEACOCK: the source doesn't describe them as such (even if I would agree that both did become very good players). Suggest removal of 'outstanding'.
• There is nothing in the source at ref.68 which supports "Another outstanding prospect in his team was left back Ray Wilson who went on to become Huddersfield's most capped player before joining Everton."

Okay, I've managed to get as far as the start of his Liverpool days and there are a few issues above to consider. In light of the above, and the fact that the nomination came from an IP address, I'll stop here and wait for a response from the nominator. Meetthefeebles (talk) 23:03, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi. I was the nominator. I like your review which is much more detailed than the previous one. This has the potential to be a good article but we need to iron out the creases and I admit there are many of those as the article was really a draft that needed more than one review to get it right. My aim is to get the article to at least GA standard before Bill's birth centenary next year. If we can make it better than GA, who knows, it could one day make FA. So, happy to work with you and I'll make a start now. All the best.

By the way, geolocate my IP and you will find it is both unerringly accurate (though only I know that) and not a million miles from Glenbuck. --81.132.89.114 (talk) 19:49, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

These questions and concerns were very easily resolved and I have addressed all of them in agreement with the points raised. Please check what I have done and let me know if any of the changes are not what you envisaged. Meanwhile, I look forward to your review of Shankly's career at Liverpool. Thank you very much for your time and diligence. --81.132.89.114 (talk) 20:39, 21 November 2012 (UTC)