Talk:Bulgarians in North Macedonia: Difference between revisions

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Macedonians identified themselves as bulgarians, are you FOR REAL?!

Quote: "Until 1913 the majority of the Slav population of all three parts of the wider region of Macedonia had Bulgarian identity.[7] In 1912, the region of present-day Republic of Macedonia became a part of the Kingdom of Serbia, thus becoming Southern Serbia. During World War II, most regions of Macedonia were annexed by Bulgaria. All local Slavic-speekers were regarded and self-identified as Macedonian Bulgarians."

This is the worst lie I've read in a while. Macedonians are and always have identified themselves as Macedonians, and every neighboring country tried to change that, but, obviously, unsuccessfully. I demand this section (or the whole page) to be revised or deleted. Thank you. MakedekaM (talk) 18:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are YOU for real? My grandma (баба ми, глупако!) was from Strumitsa, my granpa was from Seres. What were they, how do you think, macedonians??? Or fiRomians, hahaha... Your uncle Hansen ;) 85.130.68.241 (talk) 11:01, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{WPBG|class=Stub|importance=Mid}}
-{{WPMKD}}
-For the statements that "Bulgarians are non-recognized" there is no citation, please provide a reliable source for the statement [[User:Maktruth|Maktruth]] ([[User talk:Maktruth|talk]]) 16:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
-== Bulgarians by Origin ==
-Has anyone ever thought that the 60,000 people who went to bulgaria just wanted an education? That doesnt mean that they are actually bulgarian, i have a cousin who did the same thing. Shes not bulgarian[[User:PMK1|PMK1]] ([[User talk:PMK1|talk]]) 06:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
-:I still haven't got references for the exact number. But if someone has signed a declaration that he/she's Bulgarian, doesn't this mean they're Bulgarian? But if they simply study in Bulgaria and have no Bulgarian passport and have not signed anything, then they're obviously not Bulgarian. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 12:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
-::Well, they say "Bulgarian origin". And no, signing a declaration does not make you Bulgarian, especially if it's just for an EU passport or a better education. E.g. you could have a (racist) Macedonian at your school with a Bulgarian passport that calls you a Tatar. Why would you ''want'' someone like that to be Bulgarian? '''[[User:BalkanFever|<font color="black">Balkan</font>]][[User talk:BalkanFever|<font color="#008">Fever</font>]]''' 13:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
-:::Why do you think I want someone like that? And why do you think '''I''' want someone to be Bulgarian? Actually a signing of declaration does make you Bulgarian - that's why you sign it. You have a choice - to sign or not to sign. And its your personal choice. You say it's because of this and this, but that is your opinion (OR) and the fact is they sign it. I happen to know people that do it because they do feal Bulgarian and can feel Bulgarian without being arrested or something worse only in Bulgaria. But that's OR (and POV) again since this is my view. The fact is that they have signed it. And no, you cannot say they have no Bulgarian roots or something because of the complicated history of the region and the dynamic, let's call it, demographic situation. A big part of the inhabitants of the region did self-identify as Bulgarians at some point of the XX century so I don't see what's the problem. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 13:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
-::::Dynamic demographic situation, yes. It's dynamic to the point where people would declare anything that would stop them getting shot, and in more recent times they declare anything that benefits them (like education, and now EU). If  Serbia were in the same position as Bulgaria, you would see the same thing. It's not a question of "am I Bulgarian or not?", it's a question of "am I [[EU|European]] or not?" '''[[User:BalkanFever|<font color="black">Balkan</font>]][[User talk:BalkanFever|<font color="#008">Fever</font>]]''' 13:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
-:::::Say '''you'''. And I meant the dynamic demographic situation in the past, not at present. At the time when people declared (or were forced to declare) a different ethnicity every 10-15 years. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 13:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
-::::::Well, I'm pretty sure the Macedonian government can find the people who apply for Bulgarian passports, so Bulgarians not declaring that they're Bulgarian on the census (while doing it on Bulgarian paper) because they're "scared" doesn't really apply. So 60,000 - 4,000 = 56,000 people telling Macedonia they're Macedonian and telling Bulgaria they're Bulgarian. And then they go and live in Germany or France. And no, our census is not rigged to keep Bulgarian numbers down - otherwise Albanians would be 10%. '''[[User:BalkanFever|<font color="black">Balkan</font>]][[User talk:BalkanFever|<font color="#008">Fever</font>]]''' 13:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
-:::::::Noone says anything about your census - stop trying to put words in my mouth. Provide me a source with how many of them go to live in France, Germany etc and how many stay here. Again this is what you say. It's nice that you have an opinion on this, but how's your opinion relevant? --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 14:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
-Actually it is not about where they live. Many go to Bulgaria to study, get an education so that they can have better lives. (macedonia is not the greatest country for those kind of thins.) like the cousin that i have. But the 1417 number is the people who identify as bulgarian, although it is a bit low say, 4,000 people identify as bulgarians at the Maximum. This article must mention that the majority of people who identified as bulgarians began to identify as macedonians. Bulgaria got into the EU and THat is why people want citizenship, only a few might identify as bulgarians.[[User:PMK1|PMK1]] ([[User talk:PMK1|talk]]) 23:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
-== Changing the name and expanding the article ==
-Since RoM isn't a synonym of the whole geographic area Macedonia, I'd like to propose the article to be renamed to "Bulgarians from Macedonia".I wish to add information about the Bulgarians from all parts of the region but dividing the information into several articles is useless, IMO, especially when everything could be at one place.In the eventual new article I've the desire to include detailed information about the Bulgarian population through the centuries(since the first Bulgarian penetration  till nowadays) but this is impossible under the current circumstance.Therefore I suggest:
-*the article to be renamed to "Bulgarians from Macedonia"
-*to be included information about the Bulgarian presence in the region under different administrative control
-*to be included information the recent activity of the Bulgarian from Macedonia and their organisations
-*to be included information about some hot issues but of course only on the basis of sourced information
-All opinions will be appreciated.
-Feel free to give new ideas.
---[[User:Bulgarian89|BulgarianPatriot]] ([[User talk:Bulgarian89|talk]]) 14:28, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
-:And we might still have an article especially for Bulgarians from RoM - from the establishment of the Socialist Republic to present day. As for the other article - I absolutely agree. Don't forget to use mainly Western sources though :) --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 16:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
-::I agree it would be appropriate to have two distinct articles; they may overlap partially but that's not uncommon in an encyclopaedia. [[User:Apcbg|Apcbg]] ([[User talk:Apcbg|talk]]) 18:26, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
-::This article is part of a series attempting to cover the minorities of this young Republic. The minority would likely be overlooked in an article covering the historical presence of Bulgarians in the region since the [[1st millennium]]. Why not simply start the new historic article and provide links to those covering modern populations? [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 06:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
-Please explain, while was referenced text removed together with the references. This text now is not referensed, i.e. is a POV. I am going to restore the referenced variant if no reliable explaination is given. [[User:Jingiby|Jingby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby|talk]]) 08:28, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
-==References==
-I was noticed many times to use verifide references, why to have exsepcion here? That article only says that 20.000 Macedonians have Bulgarian passport, not that it is assumed or that they are Bulgarians. I personaly have Bulgarian passport to, and i'm not Bulgarian![[User:Makedonij|Makedonij]] ([[User talk:Makedonij|talk]]) 22:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
-:They got the citizenship based on a self-declaration of Bulgarian descent i.e. they have self-declared as such. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 23:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
-::Where? I know to read bulgarian language, can you please show me? Insert corect reference other way, we will have EWar.[[User:Makedonij|Makedonij]] ([[User talk:Makedonij|talk]]) 23:08, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
-:::Do not threaten to turn the encyclopedia into a battleground. For a user with your history this might just be a blockable offense. I've provided a better source citing [[Die Welt]]. That should be sufficient. Have a nice evening. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 23:22, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
-::::It is not a threat! And you are welcome to block me any time. That reference that you insert is not working, the way you are acting is fanny to. You accuse other people as POV pushers, but you in mean time do that. Please stop with that. And yes this is not a battleground, so please do not use double standards.[[User:Makedonij|Makedonij]] ([[User talk:Makedonij|talk]]) 23:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
-:::::Instead of ranting about the '''Truth''' you could've fixed the reference. I'll be short here: I cannot block you; Yes, this is no battlegroung so don't threaten with Ewars; the reference is fine now; the correct spelling is "funny" not "fany" and "truth" not "treth" and accuse has two "c"-s. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 23:49, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
-::::: Laveol once again you insert another [http://news.bpost.bg/story-read-5800.php  bulgarian newspaper] link which is claiming the same as previus, that 20,000 Macedonians have Bulgarian passport and nothing more, i have it to, do you want me to upload scaned picture of my passport? And pall i'm telling you here that i'm not ''BULGARIAN''. And thanks for wording, tray to discredit me more next time.[[User:Makedonij|Makedonij]] ([[User talk:Makedonij|talk]]) 23:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
-::::::Ummm, sorry but I'm not sure I can follow your line of thought. Neither me, nor the source is telling you you're not (ethnic) Macedonian as you say. The article reads and the source says/claims that 20,000 ethnic Macedonians have acquired Bulgarian citizenship after declaring Bulgarian descent. That's it. If the whole population of the Republic of Macedonia comprised of 20,000 only, I'd understand you, but since that's not the case, try writing it in a clearer way. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 23:59, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
-::::::: This is what you claim as an reference :
-*''Според германския вестник „Ди Велт“ вече 20 000 македонци са получили български паспорти, а молби за гражданство са подали поне още 20 000''
-*''(english translation)According to German newspaper "Di Velt already 20 000 Macedonians received Bulgarian passports and citizenship applications are submitted at least 20 000''
-Where das it say that they are Bulgarians?[[User:Makedonij|Makedonij]] ([[User talk:Makedonij|talk]]) 00:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-:Never mind, i'm not argueing, you can have them 20,000 and live in ilusion that they realy existe, you can come to visit Strumica to, and then claim that half of city population is Bulgarian. :)[[User:Makedonij|Makedonij]] ([[User talk:Makedonij|talk]]) 00:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-::::::::Ok, enough is enough. I'm getting the feeling I write in Albanian or something. If this does not solve the problem I don't know if anything can help you get into the issue:
-::::::::"To get citizenship, Macedonians have to prove that they have some ancestral connection to Bulgaria - but with the intertwined history of the two countries, this is not proving too difficult for many from Macedonia."
-::::::::Get it? Please tell me you do. It doesn't say anything about Strumica, it does say anything about you in particular. It says what you can read and nothing else. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 00:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-::::::::: No i dont, sorry, i'm the stupid one, and i clear my point out, i say have them 20.000.[[User:Makedonij|Makedonij]] ([[User talk:Makedonij|talk]]) 00:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
-''"What's important," according to historian Stefan Troebst, describing the delayed sense of national cohesion among modern-day Macedonians, "is that they know who they don't want to be, namely neither Bulgarians nor Serbs, and certainly not Greeks or Albanians." But even this lowest common denominator is in jeopardy. '''Some 30,000 Bulgarian passports are already believed to be in circulation in this country''' of 2 million people -- valuable documents which allow free travel to EU countries. The fact that the former prime minister and leader of the nationalists, Ljubco Georgievski, now travels with a Bulgarian passport has been the source of biting ridicule among critics of the new Macedonia. And the 500,000 ethnic Albanians in the country in any case traditionally feel more closely aligned with their counterparts in Albania, Serbia and Kosovo than with Macedonia's Slavic majority.'' - "[[Der Spiegel]]" 03/19/2009. [[User:Jingiby|Jingby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby|talk]]) 07:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 == Macedonians identified themselves as bulgarians, are you FOR REAL?! ==
@@ Line 66: / Line 6: @@
 This is the worst lie I've read in a while. Macedonians are and always have identified themselves as Macedonians, and every neighboring country tried to change that, but, obviously, unsuccessfully. I demand this section (or the whole page) to be revised or deleted.
 Thank you. [[User:MakedekaM|MakedekaM]] ([[User talk:MakedekaM|talk]]) 18:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
+: Are YOU for real? My grandma (баба ми, глупако!) was from Strumitsa, my granpa was from Seres. What were they, how do you think, macedonians??? Or fiRomians, hahaha... Your uncle Hansen ;) [[Special:Contributions/85.130.68.241|85.130.68.241]] ([[User talk:85.130.68.241|talk]]) 11:01, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
-== Non-recognised? ==
-A non-recognised ethnic minority... yet the statistical figure is taken from the State Statistical Office of RM? --[[Special:Contributions/101.112.166.177|101.112.166.177]] ([[User talk:101.112.166.177|talk]]) 03:42, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
-:There is a difference between a recognised minority and one that is simply counted in the census. Recognised groups enjoy more rights, while non-recognised enjoy...well, the right to live for a starter. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 06:10, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
-::Where is this distinction used contrastingly in Wikipedia articles? See [[Bulgarians in Germany]], [[Bulgarians in France]], etc. In any case, you're wrong; if a particular community is 'recognized' through legislation, it is worth mentioning that fact. However, if a community which comprises 0.07% of the total population of a country is not 'recognized' through legislation and afforded any special privileges, it is undue to state that it is 'unrecognized'. --[[Special:Contributions/123.3.240.230|123.3.240.230]] ([[User talk:123.3.240.230|talk]]) 04:18, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
-:::Balkan-topic articles are unique in many senses. and this is one of them. As I said, recognised minorities, such as the Serb and Albanian ones, enjoy some privileges that others do not. If a country has both recognised and non-recognised minoriy groups, then the status of the minority is worth mentioning. And that is it. Btw, are you the same user who posted the original question? I am really struggling to keep up with floating IP users appearing from month to month. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 09:09, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
-::::When a minority is 'recognized' it means that particular group has been afforded extraordinary rights. This is a unique category. It is therefore redundant to label every other minority outside of this category 'non-recognized' because it would be so by default. ''The wet water is wet''. 'Non-recognized' is not a unique category and is almost always used to refer to oppressed minorities. These words have explicit meanings and they're not being used correctly in this article. Please consult other native English speakers if you doubt me. --[[Special:Contributions/101.112.170.122|101.112.170.122]] ([[User talk:101.112.170.122|talk]]) 01:27, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
-:::::What you say is that by default no minority is recognised? You are aware that this depends on the national legislation, right? You could also look at [[Ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria]] and argue your case there as well. Somehow I doubt you will. And who says unrecognised=oppressed. Unrecognised means unrecognised. Not liking it, does not make it less of a fact, sorry.
-:::::A side note: If you are about to go on an uncivil rampage, spare us, please. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 15:59, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
-That's exactly right. Unless a minority is given special mention in legislation it is by default 'non-recognized'/'unrecognized' (remember: you insist on these terms, not me). The case of the Macedonians in Bulgaria is self-evidently different because they were once recognized as an ethnic minority but now the existence of the entire nation is denied. Everyone (i.e. every native English speaker) knows that labeling a minority 'unrecognized' suggests something other than legislative non-recognition because legislative non-recognition is not significant or important. It's like saying "the movie ''x'' is a non-[[Academy Award]] wining film", "Bulgaria is a European country which isn't in Asia", etc. --[[Special:Contributions/101.112.183.106|101.112.183.106]] ([[User talk:101.112.183.106|talk]]) 00:44, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
-:We are going in circles again. Does the word minority by default mean "unrecognised minority"? I do not see such a notion anywhere. Do you have sources to back up such a claim? If not, what do you want? Is the Bulgarian minority recognised? No? Than it is unrecognised/non-recognised. The notion European country in effect means that the country is not Asian. Unless you are speaking about Russia, Kazakhstan etc in which case some explaining would be required.
-:I wouldn't imagine that the situation with ethnic Macedonians could be the same. Your reaction is quite telling actually. Not that I had expected anything else. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 21:10, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
-If anyone is going in a circle, it's you. You're failing to understand what 'recognized' means. If a certain minority is 'recognized', then it falls into a special category. The act of legislative recognition is individualizing. For a minority to not be 'recognized' is inconsequential and not individualizing, and stating this is therefore redundant. Not only is is redundant, it is confounding. I'll show you why. Since you like Google Books so much, do a search for "non-recognized minority" and will see for yourself that this phrase is invariably used when speaking about oppressed minorities or minorities that are otherwise discriminated against; ex.:
-*"Another non-recognized minority living in Greece is the Turks.";
-*"the non-recognized minority groups are becoming conscious of their own languages and ethnic identity.";
-*"[...] first to reduce the German Jews to a non-recognized minority in Germany.";
-*"While Bulgaria is assumed to be monolingual, Boneva (1998) noted that there were number of unrecognized minority languages. The most important is Turkish.";
-*"Turkish Cypriots have therefore sought to rectify their weakness as an unrecognized 'minority'.";
-*"[...] homosexuals constitute what can be termed the unrecognized minority.";
-*"[...] people with disabilities claim that they are still an unrecognized minority.";
-*"Obese adolescent girls, an unrecognized minority group.";
-*"Acadians from this time onward lived out the experience of an unrecognized minority. They suffered systemic discrimination and the xenophobia of the dominant Anglophone community";
-*"In Pirin Macedonia, except for the brief hiatus of 1946-48, Macedonian was considered a dialect of Bulgarian, and, after 1958, Macedonian ethnic identity became an unrecognized minority category, which it remains to this day".
-If anything, this is more an issue of appropriate, standard English-language usage. --[[Special:Contributions/101.112.169.8|101.112.169.8]] ([[User talk:101.112.169.8|talk]]) 00:21, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
-::It is more of a question of somebody not liking a certain text. I asked you if minorities are by default unrecognised. Is this the case? You can throw random sentences all day but what do they have to do with the subject-matter. You disregard the only case that is comparable (that of ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria) claiming it has something exceptional to it. Bulgaria by default does not recognise any national minorities. What makes one of them so special as to mention specifically it is non-recognised? --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 10:26, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
-:::I'm not talking about the Macedonians. I'm not talking about Bulgaria. I'm talking about the phrase "non-recognized minority". --[[Special:Contributions/101.112.174.26|101.112.174.26]] ([[User talk:101.112.174.26|talk]]) 10:49, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
-::::And you just gave an example with ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria, claiming the term should be used only in special cases. I just noted that the case in question was in no way special. Do you have proof that the term, as used in this article, is wrong or out of context?--'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 20:30, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
-You're still not bothering to read my comments properly. I proved that "non-recognized minority" does not mean what you think it means. I don't understand why you're being so stubborn, it's not like I'm trying to trick you. I'm obviously not having much luck trying to get through to you, so maybe you can do some of your own research now? I assure you: all native and near-native speakers of English understand that phrase differently to you. --[[Special:Contributions/101.112.142.235|101.112.142.235]] ([[User talk:101.112.142.235|talk]]) 08:22, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
-:You proved? This is not a research field. I am afraid that you fail to see the purpose of Wikipedia. If you have to prove something, then it most probably is your own original research. I want to see a source explaining that the usage of "non-recognised" is not applicable to this article. While I am also interested in your opinion, it is of little relevance to the project and this article in particular. --'''[[User:Laveol|<font color="#007700">L<font color="#009900">a<font color="#00aa00">v<font color="#00cc00">e</font>o</font>l</font></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 21:18, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
-::Actually, the onus is on you to provide a source. I'm not arguing for its inclusion, you are. --[[Special:Contributions/101.112.157.151|101.112.157.151]] ([[User talk:101.112.157.151|talk]]) 01:22, 13 October 2012 (UTC)