Talk:Buu

Strongest Form

I feel there is an incredible error on this page. It states that Kid Buu is Buu's strongest form, but this is untrue if you pay attention. Kid Buu is indeed the most dangerous because he has no reasoning or remorse, but Super Buu w/Gohan is his strongest form. Evidence: Super Saiyan 3 Goku went head on with Kid Buu, yet if Kid Buu was the strongest, Goku would've been defeated in seconds since Goku and Vegeta couldn't do anything to Super Buu w/Gohan and had to fuse into Vegetto to do harm.

Super Buu is actually stronger than Kid Buu as well. Super Saiyan Gotenks outclasses Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Goku even admits to this. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks fights evenly with Super Buu until his fusion ends. Then Mystic Gohan decimates Super Buu. This lil tidbit is important because you have to remember Mystic Gohan is the strongest un-fused warrior and hence is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Evidence: Gohan has been stated numorous times throughout the manga to have the most potential of all the Z-Warriors. Mystic Gohan is Gohan at his full potential.

More Evidence that Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu. When Buu became Super Buu w/ Piccolo, Goku smiled saying "Gohan can handle you now." Goku is a saiyan and loves to fight so why not fight and defeat Buu right there? Because he knew he couldn't. When inside Buu's head after pulling Gohan, Goten, Trunks, & Piccolo from their pods, Vegeta wants to blast his way out and fight Buu and Goku warns him not too, citing that even though Buu had lost a lot of energy, he was still far too much for them to handle together and then blamed Vegeta for destroying the Potara. However, he calmly accepted the offer to fight Kid Buu, even saying he could've defeated him had he gone all out from the start.

This article needs to be corrected. Super Buu w/Gohan > Super Buu w/Gotenks > Super Buu w/Piccolo > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Majin Buu > Evil Buu > Mr. Buu

(what if fusions from Budokai 2 included: Super Buu w/Gohan > Super Buu w/Gotenks > Super Buu w/Vegeta > Super Buu w/Cell >Super Buu w/Piccolo > Super Buu w/ Frieza >/= Super Buu w/Yamcha & Tien > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Majin Buu > Evil Buu > Mr. Buu)

Article Images

• Wiki-star: Ok fellow contributors, here me out here. All of the images in this article each serve a purpose. The images under the "Forms/Transformations" section, are there to visualize the form of Buu. There is no reason to not have them there. Now, the images under Buu's abilities are debateable as to which images can be deleted. I'm not trying to say do not delete the images, because i will agree that the article is clogged. However, Zarbond eliminated FAR too many images that did not need to be eliminated. I want you to understand something. Yes, i'm sorry if you're computer takes forever to load the images. However, that is still not an excuse for the article itself to suffer, because you're suffering. (And Zarbond, i don't mean to be rude, but who uses dial-up anymore? I mean, it's the 21st century now man!). Until we debate on why 75% of the images in this article must go, i ask of you all to leave them alone. We'll discuss it here. Thanks!

Wiki-star 06:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

More people use dialup than any other form of internet. Yes, we should all be able to use broadband now that it is the 21st century. We should all also be free of war and poverty, but that simply is not the case. As I can see it now, you have two people saying for the pictures to go (not counting Kafziel, who I saw Zarbon spoke to earlier on his talk page). Readers are not stupid, they do not need pictures to help them understand. Look at WP:NOT and you can see in the talk pages discussions about pictures. There is also the more serious fair use policy, which many people refuse to acknowledge. The pictures of a show are copyrighted. It's ok for you to post them onto your forums or fan sites, but Wikipedia is not a fan site. Wikipedia is a site that has reached the level of recognition and distribution that it has to be careful about what it puts up. The understanding has been that a limited number of screenshots is appropriate if they are critically important. 38 is not limited. 10 is not limited. One picture of Kid buu is fine. Pictures of him emerging from smoke (I does not matter if it seems cool or personifies the character), fighting, using moves, dying, etc. is wrong. These are the pictures the page really needs: Fat Buu, Old Buu, Super Buu, Kid Buu, Uub, that's all I would put. I'd have just put the group shot of the Buu's and the Uub image. So Zarbon did not do something extreme, he actually lies in the middle, keeping 8. And his name is Zarbon. --Orion Minor 19:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

• thank you orion minor for your help on this issue. and thank you also for pointing out that wiki-star should not tease other member's names. on another note, wiki-star i do not use dial-up. i use a very fast cable connection. however, for the people who do use dial-up, it's a better consensus. and more importantly, as orion minor pointed out, having 40 images on a page is rather overdoing it for a wikipedia article. so going by the rules alone, the amount of 7 for this one single character is enough. - Zarbon

• lets keep the max images on the page to 7. This is key to the order of the page, as well as to follow the consensus of the Frieza and Cell pages. - Zarbon

• Wiki-star: Sorry for not replying so long gentelmen, i had tons of stuff to do this summer vacation. Allright, now everyone just calm down and relax. I've realized that we all want our share of the pizza, but instead of coming to a compromise, we're all quarreling as to who should get what! Zarbon, you have eliminated too many images from this article. I have a good mind of re-adding them all, because each of those images have a purpose. There should be no excuse as to why you eliminated images of Super Buu's transformations. Both of those images provide a perfect visualizaion of those Buus. Not everyone learns by reading and listening, sometimes you have to show them to make them understand alittle bit better. I can understand why you eliminated some of the images from the first 4 sections of the article. However, i do not understand why you eliminated all of the images from the Special Abilities. This goes back to what i've been saying before. Not everyone learns just by reading or listening. Even if the picture is there, they'll all still learn because every information is given. I'm going to re-add some of the images you never had to eliminate Zarbon. Give me another reason other that the "this article has too many images" excuse. If this site required faster dial-up connection tomorro, i gaurantee everyone will get it!

Wiki-star 17:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

We don't want a "share of the pizza." All we want is the article to be as good as it can. This goes far beyond load times of articles. When you edit Buu you may notice this message: This page is 68 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable; see [article size]. Editing (the process of trimming down a piece of work to improve it) is a very important process in any form of writing. Wikipedia is a text based encyclopedia, not a picture book. It's two to one, not including other editors who agreed that there are too many pictures. In times of conflict such as this, it comes down to consensus. I told you before, if you want the pictures back, put it to a vote first. Keep up these rash actions and I will petition the article to be frozen, where no one can edit it until you stop. You're only hurting the Buu article with your actions right now, not to mention wasting my time. --Orion Minor 20:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you Orion Minor. It's a good thing users like you exist to deal with these problems. honestly, buu does not deserve more than 7 pics. And wiki-star, if you do keep vandalizing by reverting and adding pics on a constant basis, I'm sure it won't end well for you. However, if you want to re-add his forms, then you'd have to sacrifice the Uub and the other picture on the top, the one where he's dodging Supreme West Kai. Otherwise, there should not be more than 7 pics on this page and even that's too much for a villain like buu, considering the fact that he's even less of a major character than Frieza and Cell. So, for all intent and purposes, do not add more. You can alternate the pics, change them...but keep it to a maximum of 7 pics on this page. I'm sure that my friend Orion Minor will be keeping track of your listening ability from now on. Please pay attention and do not stray from the consensus, which in this case, is to keep the number of pics on the page to a maximum of 7. - Zarbon

• Wiki-star: What the hell? Ok.... let me relax! First and for most, you two surely do not think you're the bosses around here. Both of you are acting like me now, we're you're telling the other user what to do. The only reason i'm still nagging about this article image conflict, is because i care about the Buu article more than any other of the articles i have worked on. Majin Buu has always been my favorite villain of the whole series, including GT. Otherwise, i would've ignored this. I have allready explained to you both that many of the images you eliminated were uneccessary. At least 10 of the colossal amount of images you both exterminated were quite useful. You know what, i'll deal with you too when i return. I have a great summer vacation that i won't let you or anyone else spoil. Try to return at least all of the transformation images, because i will insert them back, along with more when i return. I never had the chance to say this, but i do appreciate you're concerns gentlemen, but we need to come to a compromise, not a vote! Thanks and have a great summer!

Wiki-star 04:27, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Shut you dub drunk bastard. Have a great at your computer you dick.

Ignore him Wiki-star, the editor has a history of getting blocked and is just looking for attention. Harmful comments like his will only get him banned.

• now i don't know who is going to allow you to ruin a page by adding a ton of images...but i will always be here and I'm hoping that Orion Minor will get some other more dignified users to come and deal with you. For one thing, I know for a fact that the page will not be getting more than 7 images, not until all the other dbz villains are treated with at least 10 in this scenario. I know for a fact that Frieza and Cell are both more important than Buu. and it seriously doesn't matter if buu is your favorite character. that right then and there is not enough ground for you to make a decision, because you solely base your opinion on what you think is important while myself and others such as Orion Minor are trying to follow a certain orderly consensus. You will eventually be banned if you persist with this mockery of reverts. - Zarbon

Kid Buu

Ok seriously, this contiual assertion that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu based on his fight with Goku is ridiculous. Goku, an expert at guaging his opponents, was convinced that fighting Super Buu w/ Gohan was hopeless without fusion. He was also convicned that he alone could stand up to Kid Buu. Really people, that's called common sense. People point to skirmishes Goku had with Super Buu and a dub quote by East Kaioshin as further proof. News flash kiddies- FILLER FIGHTS AND FUNIMATION MISTRANSLATIONS DO NOT EQUAL CANON EVIDENCE. In the manga it is quite clear which Buu is the strongest, and Toriyama has never said otherwise. Onikage725 13:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree on most points, but please try to not be so confrontational about it. Discussion and edits for this article seem argumentative enough without adding fuel to the fire. Voice of Treason 16:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

You're right of course. it's just frustrating to have to fix the same thing over and over and over. And after displaying all evidence, the page gets moved and the old discussions lost, and every other new person who finds their way here wants to start telling those who've fine tuned this article how wrong they are. The sad nature of Dragon Ball fandom- everyone has their own theory and everyone is sure there's is right. In this particular case there's strong evidence to the contrary and I'm just tired of beating a dead horse. Onikage725 17:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

-Hey I agree with you totally Onikage725, even when you were 'confrontational', the fact people keep changing the article to sau kid buu is strongest is really stupid

• Wiki-star: It's not that people have their own opinion that pisses me off, it's the fact that they can't back it up! People aree saying Kid Buu is the strongest of all Buu's because he's so dangerous. People don't take the time to analyze all the Buu's and better understans each of their powers.

Wiki-star 16:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Article Misunderstandings

• Wiki-star: See this is why we need a leader and someone who can solve all conflicts within an article. This article has gone to the dogs since i have left (and it was just for 3 days). A perfect example why we cannot afford to leave this article unsupervised. People are adding all sorts of rubbish, and are deleting valuable information within the article!

That leader isn't you. Work with others, or take your complaints to an admin. Voice of Treason 16:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually the article looks great. It is far better than it was originally, though it could still stand to be improved. Some of the useless information that was added should be removed, such as the episode appearances that take up a huge chunk of the article.

Daishokaioshin 22:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It's meatier, I will say that much. And Wiki-star certainly wants to improve articles he's taken an interest in. He just gets ultra-possessive from there on in.

As far as being "great" - no, I really wouldn't say so. There's a lot that needs to be trimmed and the tense isn't so good; it reads as way too wordblocky (if I can create a term) and difficult to scan, to go along with the regular grammar & English errors. Though I'm as much to blame as anyone: I thought anything we so much as touched would be reverted back in as "valuable information". Voice of Treason 00:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• Wiki-star: What are you folks talking about? The article looks much worst than before. People are deleting Buu's episode appearances, and the links at the bottom of the article. And whom-so-ever keeps adding fake absorptions of Super Buu from Budokai 2, please stop. Only add information from the series, because everything there is factual, whereas the game can be a complete opinion. Wiki-star 16:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Galaxy/Universe

The Dragon Ball universe originally contained sixteen galaxies. Each cluster of four galaxies was looked after by a Kaioshin, and each galaxy was looked after by a Kaio. After Buu's rampage, only four galaxies remained (the north, west, south, and east galaxies). It seems that some people are confused about the use of the words universe and galaxy, trying to use the, interchangeably, or with the wrong meaning. A universe is large and contains galaxies. Our universe contains a LOT of them, but not the Dragon Ball universe's, which may be the cause of the confusion, since because it is smaller, it seen as being the same size as a galaxy by those who don't know the definition of a universe.

Hope I cleared that up.

Daishokaioshin 22:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always saw the pre-Kaioshinkai Massacre cosmology as being that of a multiverse, containing the 4 universes that in turn contained 4 galaxies. I think this mainly because of East Kaioshin's domain consisting of a North, South, East, and West galaxy. The other Kaioshins' demesne would likely be seperated similarly in their own sections, and there isn't term attached to our own North Galaxy, for example, to seperate it from what was once West Kaioshin's North Galaxy were they part of the same universe. Onikage725 03:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No, each collection of four galaxies was a "quadrant", not a universe. The North Galaxy is the South Galaxy of the North Quadrant, East Galaxy is West Galaxy of the East Quadrant, etc. However, since there are only those four galaxies remaining, they were reorganized into a new quadrant, and given different names.

Daishokaioshin 03:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Gotcha. Thanks. Onikage725 11:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

One question Dai...do you have a reference? I can't find anything to support my claim. In retrospect, the theory was presented to me by a friend who at the time nurtured my early fandom, yet by now I have more hands-on experience and have changed some of his theories. I saw some verification from sites that have long since been consumed by their own bandwith. I do remember them saying that the North, South, East, and West Galaxies were always East Kaioshin's, and that Buu destroyed each universe as he killed it's Kaioshin (leaving the East Universe untouched, as he was imprisoned before he could destroy it's guardians). If that's an ill-informed simplification, I'd love to read up on the quadrants and restructuring. Onikage725 11:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and just in case you might think that's a subtle confrontation, it's not. There have been many things that 6 or 7 years ago I read on a site like Planet Namek or GGG or the like, or was told by another fan, and took for granted, that over the years I have found to be flawed or in-correct. Easy and funny example- once had someone tell me that Vegeta accidentallly destroyed his Potara, and took that for granted. When I saw the ep for the first time years later...well obviously it was no accident, and I phoned that friend and corrected his misconception. Onikage725 11:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Unequality

• Wiki-star: I'm beginning to not like the way this site punishes it's very own contributors. I believe the consequences are provoked at one individual, and not the other. I seem to be getting blocked because i am voilating this three revert rule. Yes i understand that, but why is it that Voice of Treason did not get the same fate? He was also voilating the rule! This is ridiculous, i don't believe after all the hard work contributors input on such a wonderful site, they still be unfair to them. You folks are deleting and adding useless information to and from this article. I'm trying my very best to make it as explainable, and understandable as i can. I'm trying to add as much facts i am aware of within this article as much as possible. I try to end disputes by coming to a mutual understanding, and yet people still insult and disrespect what i do around here. It's just not right. You know, just permanently ban me. It makes absolutely no sense in contributing something you are very well knowlegeable of, and be abused. But i won't let this article go to the dogs.

Wiki-star 15:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Voice of Treason only reverted 3 times (he reached the maximum but did not break 3RR) and he did so on the lines of community consensus. You reverted six times, which was way over the line. You reverted changes by Orion Minor, Voice of Treason, and Isopropyl. Even when you work very hard on a page—even if you create a page—the rest of the community still has the right to edit it as they deem appropriate. No one can own a Wikipedia article; when you submit content, you agree to allow it to "edited mercilessly" by all other users.

Your only solution here is to discuss, discuss, discuss. Communicate with others when they ask you to, or before you make a change you think others might disagree with. It can be annoying to do that, but you will never be punished for having a calm discussion instead of an edit war. I hope you decide to stay. Kafziel 16:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• Wiki-star: Haaaa.... man. I don't know what to say man, it's extravgantly difficult. Now that you mention it, i'll stop reverting, unless someone can discuss with me why the article should not look the way it is now. Yes it may have far too many images, but i need much more reason that than, because some featured articles have just as much, if not more images than this article! Wiki-star 16:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I know it's difficult. I have the same problem. I think the real issue with the images is copyright. Fair Use allows a limited number of screenshots per article, and only when absolutely necessary, when it can't possibly be described any other way. One or two pictures of Buu gives a reader a basic idea of his appearance, and the different forms can be described using words rather than copyrighted pictures. That was the problem with the amount of issues that were in the original article, and that's why they were pared down. Kafziel 17:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• Wiki-star: Ok, now that clears up alot of confusion i had. However, you're almost convinced me. However, not everyone learns just by reading. The image is there for those that understand what he really looks like. So, you've yet to convice me as to why the Transformation images should not stay. But thanks alot for clearing up some confusion, you're a good man! Wiki-star 17:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I have never seen an episode of Dragon Ball Z, but the sections about his different forms and powers still makes sense to me without pictures. I think pictures like this one are very good; if the caption indicated which form was which, it would take a lot fewer pictures to do the job. You wouldn't need a separate pic for each form. Then you could use just a couple more, maybe one for a particular power that is very very hard to describe and another one for the most important alternate form (maybe Kid Buu), and get rid of the rest. The point is that if somebody really wants to know everything about the character, they should have to watch the show (otherwise we are cutting into the show's viewers and profits). Having lots of pictures makes a good article, but it is not fair to the people who spend their time and money making the show. It's okay to talk about it, but pictures (and even pictures of pictures) are copyrighted so we have to use as few as possible or we can get sued. Kafziel 18:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• Wiki-star: Hm? Ok now you're getting just alittle too sentilmental for me now. If what you're saying is true, then a suppose "My Favorite Games" should be sued for having so much information about Dragon Ball Z. It Does not matter how many images or how many information is inputed within the article. The job that we all are trying to achieve is inputing as much information about Majin Buu as we can possibly give. I believe the more information an article has about it's topic, the less questions we will witness on the talk page. This is one of the goals i'm trying to achieve within the article. Do you understand alittle bit? If not, we can keep going!

Wiki-star 18:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand and agree that the goal of everyone here is to put as much information as possible into the article. But that's not the goal of Toei Animation, and they are the ones who decide when to step in and defend their copyrights. With real things it's easier; if I want to put up a picture of a building or a statue, I just go take a picture and release my copyright on that picture. Obviously, you're not going to run across Buu in real life and snap a photo of him, so you need to use at least a few pictures that you borrow from someone else. In this case, no matter where you get a picture of Buu, you are borrowing it from Toei Animation. We have the same issues in articles related to things like Star Wars and Batman. The Star Wars article only has two screenshots. Even Batman, who has 70 years worth of different costumes, enemies, and actors, only has 16 total pictures. Would they be cooler with more? Absolutely. But we're not supposed to do that. Kafziel 18:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• Wiki-star: Ok i know that i'm a contributor for this article, but i don't have to do everything around here. Some people can help me out with the copyright status. But you see, people are so busy thinking about the exterior feature of the article, than the interior. Thats whats really bugging me. However, you are starting to convince me to convert the article. But.... what if some readers understand better through visualization? Even if the picture is there, the words describe the image, so theres really no difference. So... i mean why not? I am not familiar with a rule on wikipedia that says article images should never exceed such a limit. Wiki-star 18:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's not something you need to do. Nobody can change the fact that the pictures are copyrighted. As far as a limit, the Fair Use licensing tags state that a "limited number" of screenshots can be used in an article. I'm the first to admit, that's very vague, so sometimes it causes problems when we're talking about a specific number, but most editors agree that the amount in Buu is far too many.

On another note, why do you think this should be at "Buu" instead of "Majin Buu"? Have you discussed that with the other users somewhere? Kafziel 19:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, on this talk page, in fact. Here's the diff, before Wiki-star removed every section that he disagreed with: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Buu&oldid=55885448. Compare the lengths of the TOCs. Isopropyl 19:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• Wiki-star: What are you folks talking about? I didn't move the page to "Majin Buu", nor did i eliminate anything within the talk page. God, see this is what i'm talking about. Whats wrong with you people! Another thing, where the heck is the article?Wiki-star 19:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Wiki-star,

Please stop reverting the article. If you would like to change the article in some fashion, we'll discuss it here.

Sincerely, the undersigned:

1. Isopropyl 19:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)