Talk:Pai Mārire

I see the Pai Marire page is flagged. Can someone tell me why? Kiwimac

I cannot see anything wrong with it but if you like, I will fiddle around with it a bit and see if that satisfies whoever flagged it. ping 07:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks like it needs a few headings to break up the text and some references. I think Te Ua should go on his own page as well and then reduce the bio a little here. Herne nz 10:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I have corrected numerous infelicities of grammar and the like, and added some references. Someone else can do headings. MisterCDE 06:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Your submission is heavily flawed - that is why it was probably flagged. Hauhau was the political arm of Pai Marire and the Pai Marire belief is still practised today. - it would pay for you to actually go indepth on a subject before releasing a supposition. Read something by NJ Taniwha - the bulk of your admission looks like it was plagiarised from her orginal submission but youve edited key information. You have to hunt the universities for her work - she didnt write a hell of alot but what she did was noted for its accuracy. Shes still alive as well - brilliant but sadly tortured by her own demons - last I heard she was a a pisshead.

thanks

Kisforknowledge —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.72.74.210 (talk) 03:27, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Correct name

In mid 19th century NZ the common name used for this movement was Hau hauism. The community associated this name with new Maori rebellion that attempted to over throw the legitimate government of NZ using extreme violence. The attempt to show the movement as some kind of proto hippies is not only seriously misguided but plainly wrong.It was a strongly xenophopic cult which used widespread terror to try to force Europeans from NZ. Ripping out body parts from living people and eating them is not normal activity in a religion promoting peace! Fortunately there were enough resolute Christian Maori, loyal to the NZ government, to stop the violent cult. Hau Hau was the name that came to be known as a catch all for rebel Maori who rose against the government attempting to restart the 1860s land wars but incorporating an evil philosophic component to justify their heinous crimes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 22:01, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

For starters, please show some courtesy and sign your comments with four tildes.(~~~~) You have been asked this many times.

You are correct that 19th century newspapers and books referred to the cult as Hauhau. However those same sources referred to Maori as "New Zealanders" (as opposed to the British colonists), niggers, natives, savages and rebels. The fact that those terms were used then is no justification for using them now. The proper name of the movement was clearly Pai Marire (the Good and the Peaceful) and that is how this encyclopedia article should call it.

I have trawled through the major reference works I have here to try to find any consensus among writers. If anything there is a trend over time to drop "Hauhau" and use "Pai Marire" (see King, Orange, Belich and NZ History Online).

• Michael King (Moriori, A People Discovered, 1989 rev 2000, pg 104) refers to "Hauhau", and says that "by 1868, 'Hauhau' had become a generic term used by settlers in New Zealand to describe any Maori who was opposed to European colonisation or was simply a troublemaker. Those were were in fact Hauhau were followers of the Taranaki prophet Te Ua Huamene ...":
• Michael King (The Penguin History of New Zealand, 2003, pg 217) writes that as the Waikato fighting died down, "a messianic movement, another syncretic religion, was gaining popularity in Taranaki. Pai Marire (known to Europeans as Hauhau) promised its followers from European domination."
• Michael King refers to Pai Marire in Te Puea (1977).
• Ranginui Walker (Struggle Without End, 1990, pg 130) writes: "The first overtly anti-Pakeha religious cult, founded by the prophet Te Ua Haumene, arose in Taranaki .... his cult, known as Pai Marire (Good and Pecaeful) .... They were also promised immunity to Pakeha bullets if they went into battle crying 'Hapa Pai Marire Hau! Hau!' It was from this battle cry that the Hauhau cult derived its common name." (Walker then goes on to refer to attacks as being committed by Hauhau).
• Keith Sinclair's A History of New Zealand (published 1959, 2000 ed) refers to Pai Marire, but generally refers to the extremist attacks as being committed by Hau hau (two words, in italics, p 145-148).
• WH Oliver's The Story of New Zealand (1960, pg 89) says "the name they chose for themselves" was Pai Marire, but "adhererents ... were called 'Hauhaus' from the exclamation that formed a kind of Amen to their chants." On pg 256 he refers to "the fanatics of Pai Marire".
• Claudia Orange (The Treaty of Waitangi, pg 165, 172) refers only to Pai Marire.
• James Belich (The New Zealand Wars, pg 204) refers to the actions of Pai Marire over several pages, but mentions once that it was "also known as Hauhauism".

• The New Zealand History Online website refers only to Pai Marire.

The proper name of religion was unquestionably Pai Marire, and the sources above make this clear. Those authors also generally note that it was the Europeans (ie, those who understandably feared and despised them) who called the group Hauhau, but that's no reason for this article to alter its terminology. The article notes that Pai Marire became better known for the extremist end of the movement. I concede that the opening paragraph should contain the term Hauhau, and I'll write this in. Subsequent mentions, however, should be limited to the proper name of the movement. I have also removed reference to "rebel" Maori, as I do in all articles pertaining to the New Zealand wars. They were "rebel" only in the eyes of the European colonists. To the Maori, they were staunch defenders of their land, who were trying to resist its steady loss to the colonists. The term "rebel" is clearly not a neutral term suitable for an encyclopedia in dealing with a land struggle between indigenous inhabitants and colonists.

I have no idea what you mean when you say the article attempts to "show the movement as some kind of proto hippies". BlackCab (talk) 23:45, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

You have also added a statement that "The founder Te Ua called the followers of the religious cult Hau Hau."[1] The statement utterly contradicts every other reliable source about the name of the movement. You have cited "Maori Claims and Reinvented Histories.2005 Auckland University Press.p252-255" for that statement. It is certainly an unorthodox view and if included would need to plainly state that this is a claim by the author, Michael Belgrave. Would you be able to reproduce on this talk page a quote from that book that states that please? BlackCab (talk) 05:25, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

"Hau hau, as Te Ua called his adherents, were involved in the killing and decapitation of Captain Lloyd and his patrol at Oakura on 6 April 1864 and a futile assault on Sentry Hill at Waitara on April 30....Hau Hau were involved in the killing of the missionary at Opotiki,Carl Sylvius Volkner." Belgrave is a historian and associate professor at Massey University. He was previously Research Manager for the Waitangi Treaty Tribunal. Te Ua was no doubt a typical Maori matakite mystic like many who appear regularly in Maoridom . His creed was a philosophic base to undo the Treaty of Waitangi using violence ie to empty NZ of Europeans. Talk of arc angels, the new caanan, magic chants , dog barking to stop bullets and the whole 9 yards merely shows the depths of his depraved, xenophic and irrational thinking. It was a reversion to the old Tikanga(which was never really dead) where a tohunga prepared the warriors for battle by giving them a take to undertake the most barbaric acts they could dream up, with an overlay of simplistic miscomprehension of the Christian message of peace. In most ways it is the same tikanga that Ngati Mutunga usedon Moriori but they didnt even pretend that it had a religous basis. Their reasoning was that it was ok because violence,cannibalism and slavery were normal practice in Maori culture. The early contact period between Maori and Europeans is riddled with this sort of "thinking". For example about 1812ish a northern Maori hapu justified the well organized ambush, slaughter and eating of a ship's crew because a year before the captain had dropped his watch in the sea. This "atua"had then caused sickness with some deaths. I could probably relate another 10 times this sort of barbaric act happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 23:40, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the quote. Belgrave's statement, however, contradicts the weight of academic and historic opinion about the real name of the movement. His rather offhand statement alone is not enough to reject what the authors I listed above quite clearly stated about the name of the movement. And incidentally, you have provided the wrong name for Belgrave's book: it is called Historical Frictions. I am going to revert your edit, however. Your version has the following problems:

• It removes from the lead section the important point that Pai Marire was commonly known as Hauhau.
• It deletes page numbers for the cited sources.
• It refers to the movement variously as "Hau Hau", "Hau hau" and "hau hau".
• It contains irrelevant detail about the jailing of Te Kooti on the Chatham Islands (which includes material that flagrantly fails to follow Wikipedia style, mis-spells "hijack", and fails to adequately cite the source of the material).
• It changes a statement that Te Ua "suspected that missionaries were aiding and abetting the loss of Māori land" to a puzzling and incoherent statement that Te Ua "suspected that missionaries were aiding and abetting the government by providing them with letter about Hau Hau activites."
• It changes a subheading about the Ahuahu attack to "Hau hau Ahuahu attack". In an article that deals with precisely that religious movement, the addition of your mangled "Hauhau" is redundant.
• It uses the POV term "rebels" and incorrectly states that "Hauhau" rites continued to develop. The rites, of course, were those of Pai Marire, the proper name for the movement.

If you wish to discuss or address any of these issues, please do so. But there is insufficient support from reliable published sources for your changes. BlackCab (talk) 00:20, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Re: "To the Maori, they were staunch defenders of their land, who were trying to resist its steady loss to the colonists." That should be "some Maori". The reality is that Pai Marire divided opinion somewhat... see the James Belich page you noted earlier in that he talks about the different reactions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.89.99 (talk) 10:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

My reference to staunch defenders of their land refers not to Pai Marire, but to the Maori who fought the British army. I raised that issue only in explaining my objection to the term "rebel Maori", which the IP user kept inserting. My point was that to the government, Maori warriors were rebels; to the Maori people themselves they were simply trying to stop or slow the loss of their land. The term has no place in an encyclopedia in discussing this issue. BlackCab (talk) 04:55, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

You have to remember that "rebel Maori" were in a small minority and that most Maori were neutral or actively supported the government. So to most Maori too they were rebels.In 1863 Nga Puhi offered their services to the government to fight the rebels in the Waikato. They were (and are) by far the largest single grouping of Maori in NZ. That was during the 1860s land wars period. After the "rebel Maori" were crushed by 1864(a large number were killed ,jailed or surrendered) most Maori by far continued to cooperate with the government. The Hau hau were or became the remnant militant extremist fringe. The Hau hau escapees from Chatham islands became the core of Te Kooti's Ringatu guerilla band. The Ringatu was simply Te Kooti's interpretation on the Hau hau. Many of their practices, beliefs and violent anti European actions were very similar. The exclamation Hau! hau! sounded like a dog bark to those who heard it. Given that the Hau hau/Pai marire founder was widely believed to be insane it is perhaps hardly surprising that the Maori that were attracted to this extremist view had strong psychopathic tendencies. Even the Maori king thought Te Kooti was a dangerous, violent nutter and wanted nothing to do with him.

It is interesting that in contemporary Maori life Nz's most violent and extreme criminal gang,the mongrol mob, have adopted the barking dog noise as their signature noise. Evidence was given in court yesterday that several mongrol mob members were barking like dogs as they raped a girl in public before stabbing her 27 times. Claudia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 21:21, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Te Ua Haumene Ref: Te Ara(on line)

In this widely recognized encyclopedia the opening sentence of this section says that the man (who started the church) called the church Hauhau.This seems to be disputed by an editor for some reason. I cant see any reason for a dispute as the information is quite clear and precise-it was his church he can call it what he likes! Claudia