Talk:Census of Quirinius

Creation

Greetings,

I created this article out of a perceived need. This is specifically to explain the problems surrounding the census of Quirinius as described by Luke, Josephus, and also the relation to the Gospel of Matthew. Both the Chronology of Jesus and several other pages on Jesus, as well as the Gospels, took up this matter piecemeal and briefly. This, I think, it a helpful outlet for them. Lostcaesar 01:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Great article! You think we could move it to just Census of Quirinius?--Andrew c 02:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Andrew - yes I think the title is poor, this being my first article creation and all. Lostcaesar 08:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Did the census include Syria? I personally don't know, so I'm asking. Josephus would be the source.

Nevermind, answered my own question:

Antiquities 18

HOW CYRENIUS WAS SENT BY CAESAR TO MAKE A TAXATION OF SYRIA AND JUDEA; AND HOW COPONIUS WAS SENT TO BE PROCURATOR OF JUDEA; CONCERNING JUDAS OF GALILEE AND CONCERNING THE SECTS THAT WERE AMONG THE JEWS.

Area of needed aid

I translated "proconsul asiam provinciam op… divi augusti iterum syriam" myself, but I could use someone who is expert in reading inscriptions to check this out; inscription, with their missing letters and shorthand script at notoriously hard to read. Particularly, I wonder if my rendering of asiam as the adjective modifying syriam is a mistake, and if it should just be the noun, meaning Asia Minor; I think there is room for interpretation here but if so I could at least use a scholarly source for this. Lostcaesar 08:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there an image of the inscription somewhere? It would help to know how much is missing..."op" could be a lot of things. Adam Bishop 15:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

http://www.harrington-sites.com/Carrier.htm - This contains an image purporting to be the inscription, and a translation. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/ramsay/bethlehem.vi.i.html - has no image but a rendering of the words; they take "op" to be "optinuit". I get a library card here in September, and I'll look in the dusty old books then. You know, come to think of it an image would be pretty cool for this article. Lostcaesar 19:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think asia can be used as an adjective, and doubt that the words asiam provinciam and syriam belong together. It is "the province Asia" and later "(the province) Syria". Both are in the accusative case, which means we need verbs of which they can be the objects, or prepositions like in, indicating motion towards. This does not evidently fit with the current translation in the article. The missing part is usually assumed to be op[tinuit legatus pr(o) pr(aetore)]; see CIL 14, 03613 on [1]. It is quite possible that divi is the first word of a new sentence. Optinuit would be a variant spelling of obtinuit, "held", "occupied"; see [2]. --Lambiam^Talk 19:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes supplying a verb makes more sense out of it all. There is an adjective, asius, a, um; though I thought this was dubious enough to ask for aid. We should work this into the article I think. Lostcaesar 19:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Question

What is our source that Herod died in March / April - the only info on this I could find was another wiki article (and that one didn't reference this). Lostcaesar 09:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Antiquities 17.188

17.190 When he had done these things, he died, the fifth day after he had caused Antipater to be slain; having reigned, since he had procured Antigonus to be slain, thirty-four years; but since he had been declared king by the Romans, thirty-seven. Translator's Note: These numbers of years for Herod's reign, 34 and 37, are the very same with those, Of the War, B. I. ch. 33. sect. 8, and are among the principal chronological characters belonging to the reign or death of Herod. See Harm. p. 150--155.

Antiquities 17.146

17.167 And that very night there was an eclipse of the moon. Translator's Note: This eclipse of the moon (which is the only eclipse of either of the luminaries mentioned by our Josephus in any of his writings) is of the greatest consequence for the determination of the time for the death of Herod and Antipater, and for the birth and entire chronology of Jesus Christ. It happened March 13th, in the year of the Julian period 4710, and the 4th year before the Christian era. See its calculation by the rules of astronomy, at the end of the Astronomical Lectures, edit. Lat. p. 451, 452.

Two other sites for Antiquities: Antiquties 17, Antiquities 18—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.14.221.195 (talk • contribs) 17:58, 3 August 2006.

Thanks for adding the ref to the article. Please remember to sign all comments on talk pages by typing 4 tidles (-~~~~). Also, if you would like to contribute on a regular basis, you may want to consider registering a username. It's free and easy. Anyway, thanks for this information on Josephus and Herod's death.--Andrew c 19:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, so this comes from astrological calculations of an eclipse two thousand years ago? I had hoped for something less speculative than that; sigh – we should probably work this into the article. Lostcaesar 19:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Rename article Census of Quirinius

Excellent idea. Google search—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.14.221.195 (talk • contribs) 18:39, 3 August 2006.

Picture Request

Does anyone have a picture of the Grotto in Bethelhem? That might be a nice addition. Likewise, and images of the inscriptions or stones mentioned in the article, or maybe old papyri with census info on them. Lostcaesar 20:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Objective

My objective here is to get this article up to first rate standards by November or so. There is, of course, much interest in this around Christmas, and there happens to be a major movie coming out about the Nativity this Christmas. So I suspect there will be all sorts of TV documentaries and inquiries about this subject. Having a first class scholarly and unbiased view of the material in question would be a bit of a media coup for Wikipedia, I think, silently expanding the good reputation of the entire encyclopedia. Lostcaesar 22:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Possibly useful online reference for Herod chronology

http://www.ctsfw.edu/events/symposia/papers/sym2006steinmann.pdf

Proposes:

Late 39 B.C. Herod appointed king by the Romans

Tishri 38 B.C. Beginning of Herod’s first regnal year

10 Tishri 36 B.C. Herod conquers Jerusalem; Antigonus executed

Tishri 35 B.C. Beginning of Herod’s first regnal year in Jerusalem

20 B.C. Herod begins work on the temple in Jerusalem

Late 19 or early 20 B.C. Work on Temple building completed

12 B.C. Work on Temple precincts completed

11 or 10 B.C. Work on Caesarea Sebaste completed

4 B.C. Murder of Herod’s brother Pheroras; Antipater deposed as Herod’s heir; Archelaus named Herod’s heir

2 B.C. Jesus born

First quarter of 1 B.C. Antipater executed; Herod dies