Talk:Ted Haggard/Archive 1

The Root of All Evil? interview

I'll post the full transcript of the interview (as presented in the program) here for reference.

Dawkins: Well, that was really quite a show you gave us today. A fair bit of money seems to have been spent here.

Haggard: Yes. I wanted people to be able to worship and enjoy it and then be in a setting where the speaker is close to them – that's why it's in the round – and so they can be up close to me, and so I can look at them.

Dawkins: Well, it's certainly very effective, what you do. I mean, it seemed to me to have all the, the arts of – I mean, I was almost reminded, if you'll forgive me, of a sort of Nuremberg Rally. I mean, such incredibly – Doctor Goebbels would have been proud.

Haggard (laughing): I don't know anything about the Nuremberg Rallies, but I know lots of Americans think of it as a rock concert.

[Cut away to scene from the service. Haggard wandering around the congregation, shaking hands and talking to people, while a cheesy Christian hair band with a gorgeous female lead singer blows inoffensive pop from the pulpit. Lots of embarrassing whiteboy dancing. A shot of Dawkins standing stoically among the Jesus freaks, hands behind his back, dour look on his face.]

Haggard: When I prepare a presentation, I don't prepare it to get a group of lunatics to come in and just say, "Oh yes, Pastor Ted, you're just so wonderful, I believe everything you say." I would be opposed to that.

[Cut away to scene from the service. Haggard stands at the pulpit and reads the following:

Haggard: Here the Bible says, "Who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father." This is talking about us. We've been chosen for … what's that word there, everybody?

Crowd (quietly): Obedience.

Haggard: Say it out loud.

Crowd (louder): Obedience!

Haggard: Okay. So, we have been chosen …

Dawkins (voiceover): Every person needs, at the center, some sense of meaning about existence. It is life and death to us – it makes us who we are. Yet most of us, as we grow up and become responsible adults, accept that life is complex – that we live in a world of subtle shades, not sharp black and white. I worry that these born-agains are being persuaded to return to childish certainties. The only truth they need is God; God as interpreted for them by their pastor.]

Haggard: Everybody knows that we believe the Bible's the world of God. And today I talked about … love your neighbor as yourself. Now, I didn't have to produce evidence – sociological evidence or psychological evidence …

Dawkins: But you have a book …

Haggard: The book is true.

Dawkins: How can you say they're asked to think for themselves and they're told everything in this book is true?

Haggard: Because they don't have to believe that.

Dawkins: I mean, the evidence I present is you can go and read this book, it says one thing, that book says another, that book says another …

Haggard: Well, the evidence I can present is we've got a book, written over 1,500 years by 40 different authors on one subject, and it doesn't contradict itself. Where you can't …

Dawkins: It doesn't?

Haggard: You can't give me two – two – experts in certain areas that are in the same generation, in the same area of study, that don't contradict themselves.

Dawkins: That's the beauty of science. We have lots of evidence, and the evidence is all the time coming in, constantly changing our minds. Whereas you have one book which you say, it doesn't change. That's not teaching people to think for themselves.

[Cut away to scene from the service:

Haggard: And we've all decided as a group to go into the holy place – true or false?

Crowd (quietly): True.

Haggard: True! Everybody say: True!

Crowd (loudly): True!

Haggard: All right, then. That's the vote.

Dawkins (voiceover): But my biggest concern is that evangelicals like Haggard are foisting evident falsehoods on their flock. The evangelicals are denying scientific evidence just to support Bronze Age myths.]

Haggard: We fully embrace the scientific method as American evangelicals. And we think as time goes along, as we discover more and more facts, that we'll learn more and more about how God created the heavens and the earth.

Dawkins: But the scientific method clearly demonstrates that the world is four and a half billion years old. I mean, do you accept that?

Haggard: Yeah, you know what you're doing is you are, you are accepting some of the views that are accepted in some portions of the scientific community, as fact. Where, where in fact, your grandchildren might listen to the tape of you saying that and laugh at you.

Dawkins: You want to bet?

Haggard: Sometimes it's hard for a human being to study the ear or study the eye and think that happened by accident.

Dawkins: I beg your pardon. Did you say "by accident"?

Haggard: Yeah.

Dawkins: What do you mean, "by accident"?

Haggard: That they eye just formed itself somehow.

Dawkins: Well, who says it did?

Haggard: Well, some evolutionists say it.

Dawkins: Not a single one that I've ever met.

Haggard: Really? Oh …

Dawkins: Really. You obviously know nothing about the subject of evolution.

Haggard: Or maybe you haven't me the people I have. [laughs] But you see. You do understand. You do understand that this issue right here of intellectual arrogance is the reason why people like you have a difficult problem with people of faith. I don't communicate an air of superiority over the people, because I know so much more. And if you'd only read the books I know, and if you only knew the scientists I knew, then you would be great like me. Well. Sir. There could be many things that you know well. There are other things that you don't know well. As you age, you'll find yourself wrong on some things, right on some other things. But please – in the process of it – don't be arrogant.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.203.113.142 (talk • contribs) – the comment added a transcript from 13.43 to 22:29, 3 May 2006.

All Saints Church

Remarkably, Ted_Haggard#Relationship_with_President_George_W._Bush this mention of the All Saints Church tax status issue is the first in Wikipedia. Does someone have a citation for Haggard's view? And does someone want to start an article on the broader matter? Jmabel | Talk November 23, 2005

Unfair Perspective

As an encyclopedia article, one would expect a fair, unbiased look at a subject. It is obvious by some quotes used, as well as by the links provided, that this article was written with an agenda in mind. Also, the theology section is far from what Haggard believes and teaches. (I admit, I am a New Life Church attendee and I have NEVER heard the terms "Third Wave" or "Open Theism." If you are satisfied with reading an article written by a critic, with the agenda of a critic then you should be happy here. If you would rather read Ted Haggards beliefs first hand, go to newlifechurch.org. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.177.130.98 (talk • contribs) 25 Jan 2006 (UTC)

This is a wiki. You can edit. If you think the article is wrong, and especially if you think it is missing important material, get in there and edit. It will help a lot if you cite your sources when you do that. On the other hand, simple removal of material without explaining the basis on which you are challenging it is simply not acceptable.

Several different people have worked on this article (take a look at its history) and I would agree with you that some have had an agenda hostile to Haggard.

I believe that the "Open Theism" remark is correct. He may not use the term himself, but I'm pretty sure that this is an accurate description of his theology: he does not believe that the future is predetermined. If you think that is wrong, I'd really want to see a citation to the contrary. I think "Third Wave" is correct; if you are part of his congregation, you could probably easily get a definitive answer one way or the other on whether he considers himself a part of it. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

A New Life attendee trying to learn factual information from an encyclopedia? You’ll burn in hell for committing a heinous sin like that! Miller 20:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Huh?

I as well, go to New Life Church. But Ted Haggard has never stated that he believes God doesn't know the future. He's stated multiple times that he believes God knows what will happen. Don't you think the crucifixion of Jesus Christ would be a little pointless if he wasn't sure that the "master plan" would work? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.248.122.86 (talk • contribs) 21 April 2006.

Unattributed comment

The following comment was added in the middle of the second "The Root of All Evil?" quotation:

However, Jacques Monod in Chance and Necessity wrote:

The ancient covenant is in pieces; man knows at last that he is alone in the universe's unfeeling immensity, out of which he emerged only by chance (emphasis added).

There is no attribution for this comment, and it certainly wasn't part of the programme. It clearly adds information to make an argument, and so is a violation of WP:NOR. If properly sourced it could be added after the whole quotation, making it clear who is making the argument, but certainly shouldn't be in the middle. ..dave souza, talk 18:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Media appearances

I have removed the section on media appearances for the second time. I feel it is unsatisfactory to include a large section which is merely copied from another article, and to which this article already refers. I also feel that having so much of this article based on ten minutes of video is unbalanced. I would suggest we create this section when we have at least more than one media appearance to describe. Laurence Boyce 10:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The article needs to discuss his appearance and the context, but not as lengthy as it is in the main article. ErRe 03:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

As well, it should be cited. Rkevins82 19:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Considering it was aired on public TV, it is really easy to find several sources of Haggard's outburst. As an example, here is the full show.[1] ErRe 03:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)