Talk:Islamic attitudes towards science

Reference for Correlations between the Quran and science

• [http://www.islam101.com/science/quran_sc_tv.html The Qur’an and Modern Science

Extracts from the video "The Truth"]

• Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Qur'an
• Science in Islam
• The Qur'an, Knowledge, and Science
• The Bible, The Qur'an and Science
• THE QUR'AN AND MODERN SCIENCE
• Qur'an and Science (unsigned comments from User:Ratherhaveaheart

Thank you from above post but most of those references will not be accepted by wikipedia. Although they might accept following books (I found from amazon.com).

1. Islam and Science
2. Islam and Science (Ashgate Science and Religion Series)
3. The Bible, The Quran and Science. (Paperback)
4. The holy Quran and the sciences of nature
5. The Universe beyond: Spiritual interpretation of the universe : a scientific study in the light of the Holy Quran and the modern sciences
6. Some Secrets of the Quran
7. Holy Quran,: Science and modern knowledge (Monograph)
8. The holy Quran, science and modern knowledge
9. The Enterprise of Science in Islam: New Perspectives (Dibner Institute Studies in the History of Science and Technology)

and so on... --- ابراهيم 00:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Wht won't the above be acceptable? They seemed like reputable articles to me Ratherhaveaheart 03:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

They might be. But according to my previous experiences with Islamic articles, they ask for books only. Even some people reject books written by Islamic scholars (only western scholars). I had many long fights with this things. You know that things changes when applied on Islam articles. --- ابراهيم 12:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

It's perfectly OK to use reputable sources -- that is, for example, online essays, as long as they represent majority views within their field and are not the rants of some wacko. Do not assume that non-Muslims will try to suppress Muslim opinion, since that's not a good attitude to work here. I'm trying to be fair and restrict myself to good reviews of the Qur'an, both from believers and non-believers. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 13:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

POV

I've tagged this article as non-neutral. I believe the article should not be deleted unless it can be demonstrated that it cannot be fixed. I'm going to start working on it; if you disagree, please discuss here. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Just started... Does the belief that the Qur'an is "the literal word and the final revelation of God" mean that it is unchanging and infallible? If scholarly Islamic sources say so, please provide them; it would be better to make it explicit to contrast with science.

I removed this: "However, this article tries to collect of 100s of instances where Quran -- a book more than 1400 years old -- talk about scientific facts." Such declared intentions are apologistic; the article needs to compare scientific facts with the Qur'an, not collect coincidences. Again, this needs scholarly sources. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your contributions. It will be great if you could work on it. "the literal word and the final revelation of God" is copied from Quran article. Yes Muslims (not non-Muslims) believe it is unchanging and infallible. I will find some source about it soon. --- ابراهيم 12:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The article is pretty new and still needs a lot of work, but that does not mean it should be deleted. Instead we should work on improving it.--Islamic 13:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I will be really great if you could help here Islami. I know you could add some good stuff in this article. --- ابراهيم 14:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Bucaille et al

Does anyone here consider "Islamic apologist" a pejorative expression? Maurice Bucaille appears almost always associated with his apology of Islam, rather than with his medical career.

BTW, Bucaille wrote a lot and it's fine prose, but I think there shouldn't be so many long quotations of his. I can work on summarize them later, but I'd rather have other apologists, some Muslim scientists, etc., and of course notable skeptics. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 17:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I found many things that Bucaille said doubtful and leading towards original research. However, you people do not like if I present pure Quran and pure Science making no connection between them. This way a reader could decide itself. So now let have Bucaille and others. I need to put few more things from his writing then I will concentrate on others. Also he was a long time doctor most of this life and head surgeon too. At least thats what his page on wikipedia claims. --- ابراهيم 19:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The term does have unnecessary negative connotations; also, introducing him as "Islamic apologist M.B." while the next two are "historian and philosopher" and "physicist" seems unbalanced. Though his position might be that of an apologist, he is in actual fact a physician and it makes the article more neutral to introduce him as such.

On the other hand, Ibrahim - I think you're mixed up on original research as it would apply here: Mentioning anything that Bucaille has written wouldn't be OR, while juxtaposing Quranic quotes with scientific statements and "letting the reader decide" is venturing into OR territory. In my opinion, this article shouldn't be about showing "the link between Quran and Science" as if it were a fact, it should be about presenting the viewpoint some people have that there is such a link, and the opposing viewpoint, and as such, quotes are necessary. Still, I agree with Pablo about needing to summarize some of the Bucaille stuff. - Valarauka(T/C) 20:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

That's what I meant. For example, it's a well-known fact that ants have a "language", as your scientific cite points out. But I think it's a stretch to link a passage that says "the ant said..." to the scientific fact that "ants can communicate among themselves". "Letting the reader decide" is fine, but when you put A and B together, sometimes the intended connection is obvious.

But in any case my opinion doesn't matter (and neither does yours) -- what we need (in this example) is a scholar who has argued that that passage of the Qur'an predicts the modern scientific discovery that ants have a form of communication. "Original research" means you (the editor) are making deductions and associations by yourself.

I think the article is not going to be deleted this time, but it will be put up for deletion again if those issues are not addressed. Ironically, maybe the best way to save it from deletion is to delete most of it, keeping only what is verifiably not original research. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 23:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

No please do not delete. We are working to find references of stuff hence soon more refernces will be there. Do not delete anything please. --- ابراهيم 06:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

He isn't threatening to do so; simply making an observation about what is likely to happen if the article stays like it is. I think it's pretty clear it's already passed this initial AfD. Hopefully the improvements will soon be good enough that it's not an issue anymore. - Valarauka(T/C) 06:58, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The sun has an orbit?

I'm not really into astronomy, so it's probably my fault here, but "the sun also rotates in its own rounded course" makes me scratch my head. I thought this wasn't the case? --Nehwyn 18:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

As well as I know sun is also moving and obviously all the planets (circling around it) also moving along it. I will try to find some references for it. --- ابراهيم 19:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah it does! the Sun orbits around the center of the galaxy. Here's the line from the Sun article: "The Sun orbits the center of the Milky Way galaxy at a distance of about 25,000 to 28,000 light-years from the galactic center, completing one revolution in about 225–250 million years. The orbital speed is 217 km/s, equivalent to one light-year every 1,400 years, and one AU every 8 days.[3]" - Ibrahim, you could get the ref from there. - Valarauka(T/C) 19:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank Valarauka I am going to add this in the article with the reference (# [3] from sun page). Can you please have some contributions on this article as it needs lot of work. More people working here better it will be. --- ابراهيم 19:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Where the Qur'an and science diverge

• The Qur'an claims that ants can talk:

At length, when they came to a valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which Thou has bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by They Grace to the ranks of Thy Righteous Servants." -- Sura An-Naml [The Ant] (27):18-19

But they can't. Most ants produce no sounds, and the few subspecies that do only produce one or two sounds, which indicate at most a general state of danger to the nest. So the claims of the Qur'an do not make sense.

• The Qur'an teaches that there are seven heavens one above the other [67:3, 71:15], and that the stars are in the lower heaven [67:5, 37:6, 41:12], but the moon is depicted as being in/inside the seven heavens [71:16], even though in reality the stars are much further away from the earth than the moon.

• The Qur'an says that the sun sets into a muddy pool:

Till, when he [the traveller Zul-qarnain] reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring, ... -- Sura 18:86 Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it. -- Sura 18:90

However since the earth is round there is no setting place or rising place. And it is clearly blatantly false the sun sets into a muddy pool.

• The Qur'an claims that mountains prevent the earth from shaking:

The Prophets (Al-Anbiya') 21:31, Middle Meccan, "And We have set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them..."

The Bee (Al-Nahl) 16:15, Late Meccan, "And He has cast onto the earth firm mountains lest it should shake with you..."

Luqman 31:10, Late Meccan, "He has created the heavens without supports that you can see, and has cast onto the earth firm mountains lest it should shake with you.."

The News (Al-Naba') 78:6-7, Early Meccan, "Have We not made the earth an expanse, and the mountains as stakes."

The Overwhelming (Al-Ghashiya) 88:17,19, Early Meccan, "Do they (the unbelievers) not look...at the mountains, how they have been pitched (like a tent)"

However, earthquakes do happen in many parts of the world, and the presence or absence of mountains play no role in them.

• The Qur'an claims that all things come in pairs:

And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction. -- Sura 51:49

In his commentary on this verse Yusuf Ali writes:

All things are in twos: sex in plants and animals, by which we are individual is complementary to another, in the subtle forces of nature, Day and Night, positive and negative electricity, forces of attraction and repulsion: and numerous other opposites, each fulfilling its purpose, and contributing to the working of God`s Universe: and in the moral and spiritual world, Love and Aversion, Mercy and Justice, Striving and Rest, and so on; all fulfilling their functions according to the Artistry and wonderful purpose of God. Everything has its counterpart, or pair, or complement. God alone is one, with none like Him, or needed to complement Him. These are noble things to contemplate. and they lead to a true understanding of God`s Purpose and Message.

However, there are many species which are asexual or are parthenogenic, and there are species of plants which are all of the same sex.

So if you guys want to keep this article please include these things.

24.7.89.173 03:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think mentioning somewhere the very basic idea that the Qu'ran and science disagree on creationism is also quite relevant. --Nehwyn 05:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

There are some bogus things in the Qur'an that sufficient mental effort and self-deception will enable one to believe. I tried to only include things which you have to be crazy to believe. 24.7.89.173 07:36, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I will address above mention stuff soon. --- ابراهيم 06:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

What must be borne in mind, Anon, is that the Quran very often relies on poetic, even lyrical, phrasing, symbolism and similes to make its points. At times it's quite literal. At others its allegories become mystical. This text sits squarely in the midst of the very rich Arab tradition of story telling.

It's no more a textbook than the Torah or Gospels — and can't be treated as such any more than those scriptures can. So asserting that there's "bogus things in the Quran" when viewed through a purely scientific lens misses the point, and betrays a superficial take on the text. The fact that, given its context, it makes any scientifically valid points, far more than the Torah and Gospels combined, is worthy of notation and study.

The problem will be to find a reputable source that a particular reading of a particular passage is literal (The Sun in its orbit) or poetic (Conversing ants). Untangling that has given Muslims problems for generations, and is even behind the current rise of Muslim extremism. Then again, taking allegorical scripture literally is behind Chrisitian extremism too. MARussellPESE 15:58, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Well argued, and a good point, though I'm not sure what allegories in the Bible and what (modern, please) Christian extremism you're referring to. Also if the people writing this article were to accept that large parts of the Qur'an are, as you say, Arab storytelling, they might not have written this article, but then again, they wouldn't be Muslim.

However aside from the talking ants passage, it would be difficult to argue that the passages I quoted make no claims about the natural world, or do not have definite underlying conceptions about it that are wrong. If the Qur'an were from God, it would be, in its own words, free from error (the more glaring contradiction in my mind is that the Qur'an says that Jesus is in heaven, but that everyone besides God who is worshiped is damned along with those who worship him). So it is not from God. Also when you said Torah you probably were trying to say Tanakh; save us all the trouble and say Old Testament next time.24.7.89.173 20:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say that the Quran is a story. I said that its context sits in that tradition. Muhammad's work would never have been effective if he'd ignored his audience.

Actually, I expect that there are a sizable number of Muslims who are perfectly comfortable with the idea that portions of the Quran are allegorical. Just as many Christians are with the Gospels. That doesn't mean that the teachings are any less significant to either; or that those teachings that do collelate with science are any less interesting.

I'm referring to creationism, the apocalypse, and the rapture. A significant amount of U.S. support for Israel comes from right-wing extremists trying to stimulate that at hasten the second coming. This support leave Israelis, at best, ambivalent. This "lets hurry the apolcalypse along" attitude is shared, almost word-for-word, by some Muslim extremists. "Kill 'em all and let God sort them out." Crikey!

You must understand the monotheism of Islam to understand the damning of those who worship Christ. The statement "those who join partners with God" is a very strong epithet indeed. In Islam, Jesus is not God. The trinity is absolutely rejected. Muhammad had to state monotheism this strongly because the pagan Arabs would create "gods" out of just about anything. In the Islamic view, if "There is no God but God", then worshiping anything else is forbidden. To Muslims Jesus is a prophet, as true a servant of God as Muhammad, and didn't teach the Trinity. When Christians created this idea themselves (again, in the Islamic view) they in effect damned themselves.

This is internally consistent. As consistency is the first step to being true, it can not be demonstrated that the Quran is in error on this point. You're perfectly free to disagree with the outcome and consider it extreme or unjust, but you can't argue that it's erroneous from this position it takes.

Actually, I meant the Torah. Jews have the full range of thinking with respect to the meaning of their scripture as Christians and Muslims do. Genesis is in both, is treated as literally true verbatim by some, and has been the source of a lot of confusion over the creation. Psalms, The Song of Solomon, etc,. haven't been central to similar arguments.

We do seem to aggree that the sourcing for this article will make or break it. And that's what wikipedia is all about; if it doesn't get there as often as it should. MARussellPESE 15:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, while being very lucid you manage to fail to address my main points. While you are technically correct that there are Christian "extremists" today, they do not do anything which is morally objectionable. It seems like your point is to say that, yes, Muslim literalists behead people and blow up buildings, but Christians give financial and moral support to Israel, so there...I fail to see your point. My point is that if you take an almost entirely literal interpretation of the Qur'an, as I suspect all major Muslim schools of thought do (correct me if I'm wrong), you get inconsistency. The idea that these questionable passages in the Qur'an can be taken to be allegories is a new one to me. Do any of the major Sunni or Shia schools of thought take this view? When did it arise? Did Muhammad himself indicate that his words should not always be taken literally? I think you're going out on a limb, here, MA.

As regards the Qur'an's statements about Jesus, I was referring to specific suras: Sura 4:158. Nay, Allah raised him [Jesus] up unto Himself; ...

Sura 3:45. ... Jesus, Son of Mary; high honored shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to Allah.

These contradict the following sura (hence rendering the Qur'an inconsistent):

Surely you and what you worship besides Allah

are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come. -- Sura 21:98

There are following suras which Muhammad uttered after someone had raised exactly this issue. It says in the Sirat Rasul Allah that Muhammad in response to a critic basically said, well they only go to hell if they wanted to be worshiped. Well then this new correction contradicts Sura 21:98!

Also the Qur'an clearly states that everything comes in pairs, which has been disproven by science, and it implies that the moon is farther away than the stars, also contradicted by science. Not to mention the fact that it says that the heavens and the earth were created in 6 days, which is not true, and which is not mentioned in this article. At least Christians and Jews admit that creation took longer than 7 days.

One final point. The title of this article is The Quran and science, not Islam and science. We're only looking at the text here. Allegorical interpretations should be minimized.

Dating Science and Technology.

The key issue here is that there is nothing new in the Quran which people around the time (or prior for the previous many 1000s of years) knew anyway. Also, there is little mention of radioactivity, radio spectrums (microwave/Xrays/VHF etc) or even of aluminium (one of the worlds most abundant metal) yet these are all around us. Certainly nothing about computer technology be it valves or silicon. As with say Nostradamus, vague text can be made to fit into many Scientific observation. Keep the article but it needs a serious going over with an eye to what is reasonable. Ttiotsw 05:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

For me reading Quran is always a proof that it is book of God. Because it is preserved since last 1400 years and even it language is still alive (unlike other books). There is no book that is preserved since so long, in its original form. Furthermore, many things in Quran (including scientific facts) are also impressive me a lot and cannot be written by a man 1400 years ago. But you are right it is decision of a person because if it is clear-cut then there will be no Test. If God prove itself like 2+2 then nothing would be left on us to decide and no heaven/hells needs to exist. --- ابراهيم 06:10, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

His point is that as regards science there's nothing in the Qur'an that Muhammad's contemporaries hadn't already figured out, so there's nothing "new" there, and so this article is kind of pointless. It's basically you guys observing that the Qur'an isn't wrong about certain stuff, and that if you try really hard you can interpret some other stuff to be predicting modern scientific developments. 24.7.89.173 07:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly the quran was not written by a man - The quran was scribed and transcribed until it was collated into todays version. If this is wrong then wikipedia articles on the providence of the quran need updating. As for unchangability - the heiroglyphs of Egypt are unchanged (chiselled n stone after all) and yet record details of people and gods long since dead that predate the quran by millenia. The language of the quran can not be unchanged and yet still alive. All languages that are alive change as society changes. The earliest know copy of the quran is uncertain according to our own wikipedia (reading Origin and development of the Qur'an but don't worry neither is the existance of Jesus or the Bible equally clear). Wikipedia shouldn't be turned into a creation-science soapbox. Ttiotsw 14:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This is not a forum...

... for discussion of the scientific validity of the Qur'an. We're only here to report what other people said about that topic. I'm repeating myself, but please please remember that. We've been able to work on this so far only because we haven't turned this into a religion-vs.-science argument. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Thus it is valid that the scientific credentials of the authorities who we are reporting about will be examined. There will be no argument with religion and science; one is faith and one is reason. Though the Catholic church may convince itself that they can be reconciled it is pleasing to see that no such delusion is expected to exist here. Ttiotsw 13:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Why do you think this article exists? It is a few Muslims trying to convince others that their faith can be reconciled with science. Also, for you to so disdainfully dismiss the reasoning of the Catholic Church on faith and reason is exceedingly arrogant. Those ideas have been developed by some of the most brilliant men in history. If you want to get informed I can give you some reading suggestions. 24.7.89.173 00:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Just to make it clear: we should examine the scientific credentials of scientists speaking for science (lest we quote wackos or pseudo-scientists); and we should examine the and theological/scholarly credentials of those speaking for the Qur'an (lest we quote bad Qur'anic academics or unrepresentative fanatics).

What you, Ttiotsw, have to say, please find sources that say it, and integrate them into the article. If you're saying that religion and science cannot be reconciled, be aware that, with regards to me, you're preaching to the choir. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 15:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Straw man or irrelevant conclusion within Quran WRT Big Bang

The section titled, Big Bang, which has one of the translations to English in it, reads like a straw man or an irrelevant conclusion at best. These are often used ploy within religious tracts and quite effective, but it's a fallacious ploy for us to perpetrate such fallacies within an encyclopedia. The plainly visible separation of the heavens (I guess sky ?) and Earth and the obvious fact that all life requires water is used by the Quran to then tell the disbelievers this proves the existance of a supernature through implication. The scientific approach is that the data presented by the quran can be explained by other means without the need to include anything supernatural. In fact science would hold the supernatural as irrelevant. The person proposed as the reference to support the link (Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani) is no doubt (and by me too with respect to religious tolerance) worthy in his own right but it is unclear if he has any authority in the field of cosmology. This section needs to be culled. Ttiotsw 13:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ttiotsw, I will try to improve that section. I just changed my city and have to get new library card in this new city. I will try to search any book possible in this regard and will try to improve it. In the mean time I am going to search Google with "Big Band and Quran" and its variation. I hope to get few URLs to add there and improve it. No body is claiming that it is Big bang 100% sure. It might NOT BE at all big bang. However, it could be. So we have to give different opinions. May be there are some people have to prove it wrong, you can put those people comments there too. You are welcome to do that. --- ابراهيم 17:58, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

External links

Ibrahimfaisal, Answering-Islam has criticism of the Qur'an as a scientific source, despite the fact that it may also be a propaganda site. Please don't remove it just like that; show that it is not reliable, or live with it.

Observation Point, Islam101 is a website about Islam which contains pro-Islam material. It seems to be correctly presented, even if you don't believe in any of it, and is just what we need to compile claims about the Qur'an.

I'm not supposed to be the nanny for this article. Understand what the problem is, leave your prejudices aside, and don't mess this up more than it already is. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 19:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)