Talk:Rei Ayanami

Death?

Can there be a section added on Rei merging with Lillith and then her fate afterwards? Its not very clear.

Her fate afterwards will never be known. This is a common problem for events that happen after a movie has ended.

Its the same with humanity. The movie states that anyone can come back, but its up to you if Rei or anyone else came back.-Ganderman

Reincarnation

There seem to be several points to suggest that Rei's "soul" has been implanted into at least 3 different bodies.

I've tried to re-sort the discussion into a nested structure focused on specific points, which I hope makes this easier to follow and discuss. The original structure can be seen here.

Instead of simply culling out redundant entries, I kept almost everything that was previously posted just divided into specific points and arguments. I think I've succeded in putting them in order. I did remove some unpleasent comments made by other parties, but kept in everything that is at least a little contructive.

I think the best option would be to start this discussion over again, but I'd like to hear G-Max and Folken's input before removing all their postings.

DesireCampbell 24.222.232.225 08:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Now, I find it difficult to follow. But if you want to do like that...Folken de Fanel 11:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Rei's words

Claim: In episode 19, Rei says "If I die, I can be replaced" Counterargument: "replaced" does not imply "reincarnated". For example, Asuka was replaced by Kaworu.
71.198.156.164 03:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

Claim: After the battle with Armisael, Rei has no memory of what happened. Counterargument: After the battle with Sachiel, Shinji has no memory of what happened. That doesn't mean he died.
71.198.156.164 03:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

Claim: Rei says "I think I'm probably the third one" Counterargument: "Think" and "probably" are not words of certainty.
71.198.156.164 03:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

Ok, but the multiple incarnations of Rei has already been confirmed in the canon, through episode titles, explicit deaths, soundtrack titles, statements from Rei herself (and negating them by saying "she's wrong" is too easy)

Folken de Fanel 23:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Whenever a character says "I think that X might be true but I'm not sure", that's not proof of anything.

71.198.156.164 00:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

Third, when a character says something, it's not the character who says it, it's the script-writer of the show: why would the script-writer say such a thing, if he doesn't mean it to be a proof of something (and your personal theory that "Rei is wrong" is NOT valid because it doesn't belong to you to decide when a character his right or wrong).

Folken de Fanel 08:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Rei talks to other 'Reis' in episode 25 but this event happens completely inside her mind, and can also (more simply) be explained as her examining her thoughts about different 'parts' of her. Each, in her mind, representing different aspects of her life - not different physical bodies she's had. These statements can also be explained in less fantastical terms, and we can not assume that this character (who is plagued with memory-loss and confusion) is always correct.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 06:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Rei explicitely say that she is "the third".

Folken de Fanel 12:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

And you said we saw Rei's arm - anyone can be wrong.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 14:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

As I said, this line wasn't from Rei, but from the script-writers. They aren't mistaken about the show, they know what they are doing, and if they give a line to a character, there's always a meaning to it...
Moreover, Rei, as a "real" person in the Eva world, knows better than anyone else what happened to her and what are the mysteries being her creation.

Folken de Fanel 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen these 'scripts'. Can you share some more information on them? And Rei doesn't "know better than anyone else" about a lot - even that scene specifically she wonders aloud what happened, she constantly shows she is unaware of many things about herself - I'd say Ritsuko or Gendo know a hell of a lot more than she does.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 01:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, these scripts describe the episodes, cut by cut, with the dialogues and sound effects. Here's an interesting page from ep. 25 script: http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2848/pdvd019xu0.gif. As for the script-writers, sorry but they really know what they're doing. And Rei knows at least better than anyone else what is happening in the Terminal Dogma, in this big "something" where she is always floating... You would need very solid proofs to assume that Rei (and the script-writers) are wrong... Folken de Fanel 11:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

A GIF image of some squiggly lines in boxes doesn't prove anything. The script-writers frequently throw us deliberately misleading information... or do you still believe that Adam is nailed to the giant red cross in Terminal Dogma? 71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not "a GIF image of some squiggly lines in boxes ", it's an official episode script from the Renewal Box set. Now you're being subjective...

You don't understand. The misleading information occurs only in the internal Evangelion universe. We, as viewers, are the only ones to know every truths in the Eva universe.

It's the script-writers who said that it was Lilith crucified in the Terminal Dogma. Are you implying that they are are lying and that it's still Adam on the cross ?

Maybe Shinji's name is not Shinji, afterall. Maybe Evangelion is not the name of the TV series !

Please, stop being stupid.Folken de Fanel 13:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be a revert conflict going on between Folken de Fanel and 71.198.156.164. And I have to side with 71.198.156.164. That stuff simply should go into the article. --Ashanthalas 01:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but no. There are undisputable proofs, so it's useless to add original research... Folken de Fanel 10:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

"Undisputable"? You obviously haven't been paying attention. 71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Not it's you who haven't been paying attention. Folken de Fanel 13:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There is very little proof if any on both sides of the argument. It is highly possible Rei is not a clone and also highly possible she is and is "the third" one. this is something that the viewer has to decide on his/her own and is interpreted differently person to person. There is no one and only "truth" of this, as there is no one and only "truth" of life in gerneral.The details of Rei and where she came from are left out for a reason. ( Prede 12/06/06 )

Actions of Others

Claim: Ritsuko isn't thrilled to examine what's inside Unit 00's entry plug. Counterargument: Ritsuko hates Rei and wants to kill her. If Rei had died, Ritsuko would be throwing confetti and popping champaign bottles.
71.198.156.164 03:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

Claim: Gendo's nearly obsessive concern for Rei's safety would be completely irrational if she could be replaced so easily. Counterargument: The RCB says...
71.198.156.164 03:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

Also Gendo is not concerned by Rei's safety when he is sending her again to fight the angel in episode 1, or when he severes Eva 00's arm in ep 18, not caring about Rei's pain...

Folken de Fanel 19:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Your "pain" argument is irrelevant; Gendo still places a very high priority on keeping Rei alive, which is something that you still have yet to offer an alternative explanation for.

71.198.156.164 20:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

We do see Gendo give orders that would cause Rei great harm but we also see him show fear of her dieing.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 06:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That's because she has been created in the image of Yui, and though Rei has other purpose for him, he can't stop thinking about Yui. He knows she is a clone, but he also remembers that she has Yui's face. In any case, Gendo's behaviour can't be taken as a proof of anything, since he did contradicory things...

That is interpretation, not fact. For all of your ranting and bitching about original research, you seem to throw quite a bit of it around yourself... 71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

That is fact, not interpretation. Please watch again episode 23'. Folken de Fanel 13:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Apparent Deaths and Major Injuries

Claim: After the battle with Armisael, Rei's arm is shown in a badly burned state. Only a few hours later, she is in perfect health without even a scar. Counterargument: End of Evangelion shows that she can regrow severed arms in a matter of seconds.
71.198.156.164 03:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

Rei has died 2 times in the series: the first, stangled by Naoko Akagi (we see her arms dangling, without life), the 2nd, against Armisael (we see her carbonized body). You're just making assumptions and what-if. We never saw Rei alife just after being strangled by Akagi, neither do we see her getting out of her destroyed entry-plug in Ep 23.

Folken de Fanel 19:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The only assumptions here are being made by YOU, not me. Your carbonization argument has already been discredited (or have you never watched End of Evangelion?).

71.198.156.164 20:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

I see you fail to find counter-arguments...You are only making guesses and assumptions. We see Rei's body carbonized. We see her stangled to death. Want to say otherwise ? Show proofs.

Folken de Fanel 20:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

We never actually see her die. Yes she's chocked a bit, and yes Unit-00 is destroyed, but we are never shown, explicitly, that she's dead.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 06:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The deaths are never "explicit", they are just vaguely implied (except in the manga, which is not canon with respect to the anime).

71.198.156.164 00:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

Second, I consider a death explicit when we see lifless arms dangling, and when we see carbonized remains...

Folken de Fanel 08:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

What episode is that from again? I'd like to see that again for myself (without going through every episode). If I remember correctly it's just a little choke, Rei goes limp - nothing that even suggests she died. This is no proof, limp arms do not mean "liflessness" they mean "unconciousness".

"This is no proof, limp arms do not mean "liflessness" they mean "unconciousness"." Excalty. It means unconciousness , anything more then that is for YOU to decide. This is something that is left out so the the viewercan decide if she died or not. She could infact just be unconciousness or she could be dead. We are not shown what happened therefore it can be either way, although I myself belive she probally did not die. ( Prede ) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.83.177.190 (talk) 03:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 14:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Episode 21: Naoko chokes Rei, then we see her arms limp...Yes, when we see a character who doesn't move anymore (and who isn't seen alive again) after having been choked, that suggests death. Moreover, Naoko would have to do something more terrible than a "little choke" to kill herself.
All this scene is made more explicit in the manga, and it is written that Rei died.

Folken de Fanel 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

We see Unit-00 self-destruct but we never actually confirm Rei died there, Ritsuko finds her body afterward but we are never told if she's alive or dead. Also, We see Toji's plug get crushed and he lived too.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 06:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Truly, we see Rei get choked and we see her limp arms - saying "she died" is interpretation. "when we see a character who doesn't move anymore (and who isn't seen alive again)... suggests death" but she's only "never seen alive again" because you said she died - if you don't assume she was choked to death we can use that say that "when we see a character who doesn't move anymore (until we see her in the next scene) suggest not dieing." Naoko killing herself afterwards isn't proof that Rei died either, there are other equally plausible explanations - Rei only appeared dead, Naoko felt terrible guilt from simply choking a child, she was unbalanced enough to try and kill a child perhaps suicide wasn't far off anyway. I'm not saying it's impossible that Rei died, I'm just saying there's other explanations. And the manga, while excellent in it's own right, diverges from the anime on several points (Asuka being a test-tube baby, Toji dieing, etc..) this could be another such inconsistency.

Also, watching it again - the young Rei seems very different from the Rei we usually see. She seemed to taunt Naoko, and smiled slightly. This strikes me as very unusual.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 01:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Shortly after Unit-00 self-destructed Rei had no visible wounds but as we see later, Rei possess extra-natural regenerative and healing abilities.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 06:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Hum, hum...

We have proof that she died in 2010 (she is chocked, and we see her lifless arms). This is has been made even clearer in the manga.

We have proof that she died in 2015 against Armisael (we see the destroyed Entry-plug, we see a carbonized arm.

Folken de Fanel 12:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

No we don't. We see a rather intact plug (compared to Toji's plug, who survived) and not any sign of Rei aside from Ritsuko's reaction.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 14:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

No, we see an Entry-plug torn appart, and when Ritsuko looks inside, we see a carbonized arm in the shadow. Screenshots: http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/82/entrysm7.png http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/7293/entry2xj7.png

Folken de Fanel 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I didn't notice that hand before at all! But... that still doesn't prove death. It proves she got hurt and does indeed suggest that there was greater injury - but nothing is proven. Secondly, the plug's appearance proves nothing. Her plug was in great shape compared to Toji's plug after being crushed, and Toji survived - if anything, her plug being intact suggests she survived.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 01:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

But we never actually see her getting up and saying "I'm alive" after these 2 incidents...

Oh come on, that's the stupidest thing I've heard yet. We don't hear anyone say "she's dead" either.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 14:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It's as stupid as saying that there is only one Rei because we see Rei alive after...

Folken de Fanel 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Not as much as saying that she died because she doesn't say different. :P

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 01:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Rei has around 4 in the 2010 flash back. Which would make her around 9 or 10 in 2015. Yet she is really 14.

In Ep 23, after the explosion, Rei has no visible injury. She didn't recover by herself, because she discovers the power of her AT-Field and her true indentity only after her encounter with Kaworu. We have other instances where she has been injured, yet couldn't recover by herself and needed bandages, bandages under which there was blood. It's a proof she couldn't recover all by herself.

Folken de Fanel 12:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

A very valid point, not 'proof', but very suggestive. I'm inclined to agree with you about not being able to heal herself without having become, at least subconsciously, aware of her powers. But, the instant before Unit-00 explodes it transforms into a giant white Rei (much like End of Evangelion). This suggests that she has started to use her powers.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 14:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Good ! At least one thing on which we agree ^^ As for the white Rei, it was only a manifestation of Armisael's power granting Rei's most intimate wish to be united with Shinji...It was made explicit that she didn't want it to happen and she even self-destructed so as to prevent this. But it was surely because of Rei's nature that the white Rei appeared.

Folken de Fanel 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That is interpretation, not fact. 71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

That is fact, not interpretation. You never saw ep. 23', didn't you ? It's all there. Everything I'm saying is directly taken from Armisael and Rei's line in ep. 23'. Folken de Fanel 13:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm actually very unclear what you mean by "united with Shinji", "made explicit", "Rei's nature". Can you explain in a bit more detail?

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 01:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a carbonized arm (don't forget that Rei isn't injured after, and that she doesn't have "powers" yet). When an arm is carbonized, there is great chance that the owner of the arm is also carbonized. Also when Ritsuko inspects the Plug, she says "What happened is classified top secret. Take back the Plug. Dispose of everything else." Pretty obvious they're going to "dispose" of Rei's body...

Actually, she DOES have powers by that point, and is even aware of them. She demonstrates telepathy in episode 20, when she contacts Shinji in Unit 01 and Toji gets to eavesdrop on their conversation.71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow, that is complete BS ! She never "contacts" Shinji and Toji.Folken de Fanel 13:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

As for carbonization, it's really quite easy to burn a person's arm without burning the whole person. Want proof? Stick your arm in a fireplace sometime. As for Ritsuko's orders... do you have any evidence that they were obeyed? No.71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

In case you haven't seen ep. 23' (which I am now convinced), Rei never stuck her arm in a fireplace, she self-destructed her Eva, and was thus right in the center of a fucking huge explosion which destroyed a big part of Tokyo-3. And you compare this to "sticking one's arm in a fireplace" ? As for Ristuko's orders, have you proof they didn't do it ? Folken de Fanel 13:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm actually very unclear what you mean by "united with Shinji", "made explicit", "Rei's nature". Can you explain in a bit more detail?

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 01:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

"united with Shinji": that what she says. It can mean she feels love, or friendship for Shinji, and that she want to "merge", to become one with him, like in the 3rd Impact.

"made explicit" : well, she self-destructed so as to prevent this. That's the major twist in EP. 23.

"Rei's nature" : Lilith. Folken de Fanel 13:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, it's true that the manga often diverges from the anime, but the scene when Rei dies is in volume 9, which is very faithfull to the corresponding anime episodes (with the exception of Kaworu who gets a little more exposition, due to changes in the story made in volume 8). Folken de Fanel 13:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The manga does not count as evidence of anything with respect to the anime. It is purely Sadamoto's interpretations and opinions. 71.198.156.164

Claim: A person must be deprived of oxygen for at least 6 minutes before death occurs. Naoko Akagi was only choking Rei for a few seconds, barely even enough time for Rei to lose consiousness. Counterargument: The RCB says...
71.198.156.164 03:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

I wait for a proof showing that Evangelion is a real-life documentary and not a fictional anime... http://www.abcb.com/laws/index.htm

Folken de Fanel 13:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The Laws of Anime Physics are jokes, not facts. In addition, the time required for an oxygen-deprived brain to die is NOT a law of physics, so the law "the normal laws of physics do not apply" does not apply.

The laws of anime physics are facts, because they are based on real physic laws.Folken de Fanel 13:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

NERV / SEELE Technological Achievement

Claim: There is no evidence to suggest that NERV has the technology to deliberately transfer souls. In fact, both of their known attempts to do so (extracting Yui, and later Shinji, from Unit 01) ended in failure. Counterargument: The RCB says...
71.198.156.164 03:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

The fact that there are numerous Rei bodies in the tank in Ep 23, and that they are labelled from "Rei IV" onward, is already an undisputable proof.

Folken de Fanel 11:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all, they're not labeled from "Rei IV" onward, they're labeled from "Rei 004" onward. Secondly, this only proves that 3 bodies were removed from the tanks, and has no bearing on what happened to them afterward (they were put into dummy plugs - Ritsuko says so at the end of episode 23).71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Ritsuko never says they were put into Dummy Plug. Seriously, you haven't never seen Evangelion, so stop saying BS here. Oh, in case you didn't know, there's been only one Rei DP in the whole story.Folken de Fanel 13:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There has been several soul transfers ("salvages") in Evangelion: Kaworu (who has Adam's soul) and Rei (Who has Lilith's soul).

Folken de Fanel 19:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

There's no evidence to indicate that the transfer of Adam's and Lillith's souls into Rei and Kaworu was deliberate.

71.198.156.164 20:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

the Rei-tank scene in ep. 23 (they are "parts" , yes, but also "vessels". Vessel for what ?), etc.

Folken de Fanel 23:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

We see other bodies for Rei but we are never see, for sure, that NERV or SEELE has the ability to transfer souls (we actually know that they've failed at least twice at such an act).

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 06:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

We see the "Rei-quarium" (the tank filled of Reis) in Ep. 23:

Folken de Fanel 12:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, I don't remember any number at all. Could you be so kind as to provide an image of that? Or at least a better descripion as to where I should be loking for these numbers?

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 14:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

When Ritsuko shows the "Rei-quarium" to Misato and Shinji, she has a sort of remote- control in her hand. When the camera focuses on her hand, we see written on the remote "Rei 004", "Rei 005" and onward until "Rei 014". Here is a screenshot: http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/3286/evaritsu2ay1.png

Folken de Fanel 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. I wonder... the list only goes up to '14', but there at least 24 'Reis' floating in the tank. While I am inclined to believe that the list starts at the top and is just cut off at '14' - but there's no way of knowing that for sure. We know there are more 'Reis' than that list shows.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 01:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• First, it establishes that "Rei" can be and has been cloned.
• Second, that these clones are "vessels" for "Rei".
• Third, that there are 3 missing Rei (Rei 001 to 003). There are two instances where Rei is (implicitely if you want, but in fact it was really obvious) shown to have died.

We know that she has been genetically engineered by Nerv because she has Lilith's soul.

Folken de Fanel 12:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Having Lilith's soul is not indicative of being created by NERV. Furthermore, we have no explaination as to how she obtained this soul. There are many other bodies in the "Rei-quarium",

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 14:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if she has Lilith's soul it means that she was created by Nerv, because to transfer or "salvage" her soul requires a human intervention. She didn't do it by herself, as she had no reason...And Rei being a look-alike of Yui isn't mere chance...

Folken de Fanel 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no dispute that she was created by NERV; the dispute is whether the soul-tranfer was DELIBERATE, and you have no evidence whatsoever of this.71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I was merely pointing out that A doesn't prove B. It's clear that NERV and SEELE both have created 'humans' and implanted angel souls into them. But it's unclear how and if they can do it again.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 01:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

We don't know that nerv hasn't the ability to transfer souls. Yui wanted to stay in Eva-01, as did Shinji. Naoko's soul has been partially salvaged. Then Lilith's soul has been salvaged into Rei.

We also don't know that NERV doesn't have the ability to shoot candey from their asses - but we don't assume they do without proof. That's my main point here - you're assuming that they do have these abilities, the correct method should be to assume they don't.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 14:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I do assume, because they have already salvaged Lilith's soul and almost salvaged Kyoko Zeppelin's soul (but did they really fail, as the Nerv needed souls inside Evas ?). And also because there has been 3 different Reis...

Folken de Fanel 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

My point is that you can't assume things. You basically said 'A proves B, and A is true because B is true'. It's a cyclical proof, which isn't real proof.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 01:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

There has been several proofs of soul salvaging, what more can I say if you don't want to believe established facts ? Folken de Fanel 13:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Your so-called "proofs" are basically the equivalent of saying "evolution is wrong because the bible says so". While we're at it, let's go ahead and pretend that a cruise missile left 100 tons of airplane wreckage inside the Pentagon. After all, there have already been several "proofs" that the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile and not a 100-ton airplane... 71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought we were talking about Evangelion. If you really cannot use Evangelion-related arguments, and if you are instead obliged to take out-of-context examples that have nothing to do with Eva whatsoever, then shut up, please.

There is proof of soul salvation, and you'll never be able to change it. Face the facts. Folken de Fanel 13:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The 'Red Cross Book'

Claim: The Red Cross Book says... Counterargument: The RCB was not written by Gainax, and there is conflicting information regarding whether Anno approved it or not. Lesser members of Gainax approved it, but some of them admitted in interviews with Newtype magazine that they hadn't even seen all of the finished episodes. Its canonicity is disputed.
71.198.156.164 03:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

We can find plenty other facts, without even relying on the Red Cross Book (which canonicity makes absolutely no doubts). For example, Rei I has already died in 2010. Or that Rei II died in Ep 23. Or that Rei II and Rei III are officially recognized as separate characters since they each have their own theme song.

Folken de Fanel 11:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The only thing that "has been stated in the show" is that Rei THINKS she's the third one. I'm not adding any "personal theories". The Rei clones (which are labeled "Rei 004" and up, not "Rei IV" and up) don't prove death and soul-transfer; their purpose is already stated as being the cores of the dummy plugs, and as spare PARTS for Rei. The canonicity of the RCB is doubted, and by plenty of people other than myself, I might add. The beliefs that Rei I died in 2010 and that Rei II died fighting Armisael are NOT facts; the former is contradicted by medical fact, the second is inconsistent with a whole bunch of other stuff in the show (like EoE arm regeneration), and neither is explicitly stated, nor remotely proveable using information that is given.

71.198.156.164 15:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

Script Interests

Claim: Episodes 5, 6, and 23 are titled Rei I, II, and III. Counterargument: Evangelion isn't the only TV series to use multi-part episodes designated by Roman numerals.71.198.156.164 03:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

Claim: There are songs titled Rei II and Rei III. Counterargument: The fact that there are songs titled "Rei II" and "Rei III" doesn't mean that there are two characters with those names; that would be like trying to use the song "Over my Head" to prove a plot point about Titan A.E. Unless an episode or song title is "Rei dies and is replaced by a clone", such titles don't mean a damn thing.71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The Rei-I/II/III being different and separated characters is confirmed in the episode scripts, available in the Renewal release.
Folken de Fanel 23:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I actually HAVE the Renewal release (needed the frame-accuracy for music videos), and while it contains plenty of bizarre comic strips written in Japanese, I seriously doubt that they're episode scripts, unless one episode featured a deeply disturbing Sachiel-Samshel-Zeruel love triangle.

71.198.156.164 00:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

First, such titles mean everything, for one who is willing to accept what is shown, and not his opinion only.

Folken de Fanel 08:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where you got your Renewal set, it must have been second-hand, because there are episode scripts in this release. They have even been used and translated for the Eva commentary project, created by al the persons you mention. You can even find them scanned on the net. I have the one for ep. 25 under my eyes, and it does say "Rei 1", "Rei 2", "Rei 3" when the different incarnations of Rei talk in turn...

Folken de Fanel 08:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

That's funny. I thought the character names were Rei I, Rei II, and Rei III, not Rei 1, Rei 2, and Rei 3...71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Wiki-style

In the entirety of the anime, there is NOT ONE phenomenon that can only be explained by death and soul-transfer. All alleged phenomena have purely non-speculative explanations, examples of which are listed above. Lacking such a smoking gun, lacking a direct statement from Anno on the matter, and given the reasonable evidence against the theory (like Gendo's obsession with keeping Rei alive), the matter is disputable enough for Wikipedia's NPOV policy to apply. However, if anyone is willing to provide a scan of the RCB showing where Anno signed his name, that would be enough to settle the issue.
71.198.156.164 15:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

There are enough proofs that Rei died 2 times, and you're merely saying "I don't think it was like that". Show one, juste ONE, CONCRETE, element, showing that Rei is the same one throughout the show, and you win. I wait.

Note: "In real life physics", "I don't thing that", "maybe she was", and RCB bashing aren't concrete elements.

Folken de Fanel 20:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I "fail to find counter-arguments"? Are you freaking BLIND? Do you not see the LONG list at the top of this section? "These things were stated in the show"? Actually, NO, they WEREN'T. You still have yet to properly address Gendo's extreme fear of Rei ever dying, which I consider pretty "concrete". And did you ever actually do a search for Northern Klingons?

71.198.156.164 20:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

I repeat : "In real life physics", "I don't thing that", "maybe she was", and RCB bashing aren't concrete elements.

Also you have been unable to find counter-arguments about Gendo not caring about Rei, and rei not caring about herself.

Folken de Fanel 20:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

On 10 "claims", you wrote : 4 RCB-bashing, 3 "maybe she was", 2 out-of-context argument without connection to what is being discussed, 1 argument that was countered and to which you couldn't answer after.

Folken de Fanel 20:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

It's funny how you keep saying things like "Real life physics" even though I never have. This is commonly known as a "strawman argument".

Anyway, I've consulted the official rules, and if we followed the definition strictly, we'd have to throw a LOT of this stuff out. A huge amount of information about Rei (and Evangelion in general) is not explicitly given, and has to be inferred or deduced. The overwhelming majority of this analysis is done via online message boards and therefore never appears in any "published" document, which means that even the most basic logical deductions, no matter how true, would have to be thrown out unless mentioned in the RCB. The line "If I die, I can be replaced" would probably not be citable as evidence in favor of the replacement theory. We couldn't touch albinism, nor could we go near the whole "red eyes, blue hair / blue eyes, red hair" thing, as they don't appear in any "published" source. We wouldn't even be able to say 2+2=4 without quoting a math book.

So I'm going to compromise. For everything that is never explicitly confirmed in the canon, but suggested or claimed to be true by the RCB, I'm going to say something like "the RCB says X, but some fans prefer alternative explanations" or "the RCB says X, despite (insert evidence supporting simpler possibility)". This should allow NPOV to remain intact without violating the "original research" rules.

71.198.156.164 21:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

don't be offended too much, you have enough websites and boards to develop your theories...So don't overreact and say things like "We wouldn't even be able to say 2+2=4 without quoting a math book", because you have to admit that the theory you tried to write in the article is contradictory to the show...

Folken de Fanel 23:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

These aren't "my" theories, though I have spent years discussing them with the nation's top fan-geeks (Reichu, MDwigs, Shin-Seiki, the Eva Monkey, etc). This theory is 100% consistent with all evidence in the anime, with the exception of a brief shot in EoE that completely lacks context but is frequently cited as "evidence" of replacement.

71.198.156.164 00:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

That you pretend to have discussed it with reichu and all the others doesn't prove anything, because I know they wouldn't negate things that have been proven hundreds of times in the show. Tt's 100% inconsistent with all the evidences in the anime.

Folken de Fanel 08:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with G-Max, there should be a separate page dealing with the vagueness of specifics - but the main page should keep the NPOV style, that is, it should say (repeatedly) that many things in NGE are unclear and is intended that way; and the article should explain these disputes in slight detail and link to the appropriate section on the dispute page. Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 06:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Whoa, I never said that Reichu and the others AGREED with me, I just said that I discussed it with them. They just kept using the RCB as a crutch and presenting the same half-assed circular logic that you're using.71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

And finally, we have various official, Gainax-sanctionned, canon, Anno-written, documents that confirm all this, so really, there can be no discussion.

Folken de Fanel 12:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Uh, if we did I'd expect you to quote them and end the discussion. Can you quote them for me? Can you show the proof to me?

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 14:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm talking about what the fans called the "Red Cross Book". It was the program book of "The End of Evangelion", in which, among interviews and production notes, there was a glossary, in which was written in black and white, that "her body was created from the salvaged remains of Yui Ikari after Yui was taken into the Eva, and numerous Rei clones were then prepared in Terminal Dogma so that when one Rei dies she can be replaced by another" and also that "The present Rei is the third. The first was killed by Dr. Naoko Akagi, and the second died in battle against the 16th Angel."
Source: http://www.evaotaku.com/html/glossary2.html#L

Folken de Fanel 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes, the RCB. I've not seen much information about it. "Salvaged remains of Yui Ikari after Yui was taken into the Eva" Huh? What? But there wasn't anything to salvage. She was gone - that was the point. She completely disapeared into the Eva, there was nothing left. Such statements hurt the RCB's credibility. Additionally: what is the canonicity of the RCB? I've seen complaints that it was not authorized by Anno - and while that doesn't mean it can't be taken into consideration, it would mean that it must be taken (much like the manga) as less 'canonical' than the anime.

Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 01:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

As said in Ep. 19, when someone has been absorbed into an Eva, the LCL becomes a sort of primordial ocean, the "soup of life". It contains the genetic datas of the person that has been "disolved". That's how Ritsuko wants to save Shinji: to reconstruct his body in the plug, while forcing his soul to return to the body. And that's how Nerv (or Gehirn at that time) gavered the "remains" of Yui so as to create a clone of her. Folken de Fanel 11:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

To break a person's body down into primordial soup requires breaking the DNA down into nucleotides. There is no objective evidence to suggest that a person's entire genome remains intact after being absorbed into an Eva. 71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

You've never seen episode 20 nor End of Evangelion either, didn't you ? Really I can do nothing for you if you don't even know what we are talking about. Folken de Fanel 13:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

As for the canoncicity of the RCB, well, a lot of persons like G-Max hate it, because it confirmed that there was several Reis, and it debunked their personnal theories. So these frustrated persons started to discredit it, inventing lies, pretending it wasn't written by Anno, etc. But it's all lies, the "RCB" is canon, it's Gainax-copyrighted, Anno never complained about it, and Anno confirmed once more what the RCB said about Rei, in the PS2 video game "Evangelions/ Evangelion 2", which he supervized. Folken de Fanel 11:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The RCB was written by Viz Entertainment, not Anno. Anno also did not supervise the PS2 game; he merely said some stuff in an interview, and the game's creators took his statements into consideration when making the game. I have yet to see a transcript of said interview, so there is no evidence to support the idea that he said anything about Rei. It's worth noting that Anno also never complained about the RCB's now-discredited claim that Unit 00 contained the soul of Rei I. If you REALLY want to know what Anno thinks of the RCB, consider one of his statements from when the show was new. I can't find it at the moment, but it goes something like "We're not going to explain everything. There won't be a technical manual." (maybe Reichu and the others can help you find said quote) 71.198.156.164 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The RCB isn't written by "Viz" (seriously, where did you get that one ? You're so funny !) but by Gainax, and Anno supervised the PS2 game.

Anno said everything about Rei in the eps and the RCB...

The RCB never said that Eva-00 contains the soul of Rei-1, but for now, it's the most believable explanation, with evought evidence to make it undisputable.

Folken de Fanel 13:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

living alone

Rei Ayanami lives alone. As in "by herself". Gendo Ikari is not her guardian, just her commanding officer.

Perhaps it is just a room? She doesnt have to live in the same room as him. Where is her home anyway? I dont remember from that episode. 68.108.169.139 20:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

She lives on the bad side of town, in a dingy apartment with virtually no furniture.

Images

requested image: Yui Ichijo

•Is this the kind of thing needed? It's a scan from a page of "Der Mond" by Sadamoto (Viz translation).

http://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dermondyoshiyukisadamoto0723rb.jpg --193.195.185.254 15:42, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Original research

After Shinji came out of the Dummy Plug, both he and Rei took a stroll to a pavilion at NERV HQ. She remarks that when Shinji first touched her, she felt nothing, but as the relationship developed she felt a warm sensation (which I think may be a sexual arousal to Shinji) she then asks if she can touch him again and they hold hands. Overall Rei in the manga is much more human like, and she seems to be in love with Shinji which confuses her very much. I think that part of the confusion is a sexual feeling, something that she has most likely never felt.

Well, as shown. Is anyone able to rephrase this paragraph to something less "speculative" and more "agreeable"? I'd do it myself, but as I'm currently sick, my thought processes aren't functioning 100%. Satanael 15:56, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

It shouldn't be written in the first person, anyway--88.105.243.108 00:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah... I know. Satanael 14:16, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the bits added by 72.23.125.92, which are what prompted the "original research" problem. He added similar personal interpretations to a couple other Eva articles, too, which's been remedied. --Xanzzibar 03:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

This article is ridiculous. Her history section justs smacks of nothing but speculaton and excerpts claiming "we don't know" or "we're not quite sure". As I was reading it, I yeanered for information on Rei, not speculative anlysis. -Zero^Talk 13:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

If thats the way you feel about it then do something about it. Clean the article up and remove all the original research. Thats what Wikipedia is about. --cheese-cube 01:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is I do not have sufficient knowledge to contribute immensely on the subject to accomplish this. If I could do so I would not taken this to the talkpage. -Randall Brackett 18:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, speculation and theory account for the vast majority of information regarding Rei's age and origins... if you think THIS is bad, you should hear the crap that I've heard about Kaworu being a clone of Misato's father, or Sachiel being sexually attracted to Unit 01... 71.198.156.164 03:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

IN the eposide "Tears" they show were"Rei was made" and then show "spare Reis"the Docter said that these Reis are Vessels of Adam,"they hold souls for the evengalions" if this is true, Rei carrys a soul with her, in later she merges with lilth.Ans on that epsiode"Tears" Rei destroys her slef along with her Evangalion, but later she is still alive, and then when she goes back to her apartmant(room) shetries to break Camander Ikari's glasses, then starts crying for a secound time and says" Why I'a, I crying? It's the first time i seen these,but it feels like I've sen them before.So heres my point, Did they just save Rei's soul and put it another "spare Rei"?

This is a disputed matter. Her Angelic insta-healing superpowers, as demonstrated in End of Evangelion, in combination with Shinji's memory loss in Episode 2, suggest that Rei survived (much to Dr. Akagi's dismay) and had fully healed by the time she removed her bandages. However, the Red Cross Book says that she was indeed killed and her soul transferred to a new body. 71.198.156.164 03:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC) G-Max

Reigouki mention removal

I edited the mention of "reigouki, another appearance of her name." The reason is that Evangelion Unit 00 is not called Reigouki, it's called Zerogouki. I called for (and got) this same correction on the Evangelion (mecha) article. 72.192.237.134 21:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC) Ismail

Emotion

I think that a section describing the emotion in Rei's character would be a good idea. I cant really think of a way to describe it (I havent watched the series for a long time). -- Psi edit 03:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Violence?

It says in the article that Rei is the opposite of Asuka in 'all these respects', which include violence, however while in her daily life she is not violent, when they transferred control of unit 01 to the AI clone of her, it destroyed the Evangellion that Shinji would not, and unnecessarily crushed the person-carrier part.

Yeah, the dummy system has a few bugs in it.

Rei isn't necessarily 'non violent' she's just withdrawn. She's very introverted, while Asuka's extroverted. -Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 22:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I reworked the begining from...

Throughout the series, Rei's stoic personality compounds intrigue about her, which later results in arousing the scorn of Asuka, who at one point refers to her as a "doll" or "puppet." Asuka is outspoken, emotionally extreme, and violent; Rei is the opposite of Asuka in all these respects. Asuka has red hair and blue eyes, while Rei has red eyes, but blue hair. The show's character designer, Yoshiyuki Sadamoto, said that Rei's blue hair, pale skin, and red eyes exist solely to make her look more "distinguished" from the rest of the cast; however, Kaworu Nagisa's similar characteristics have led some fans to speculate about the angelic nature of these traits. Rei describes blue as "agreeable" and red as the color that she "hates." She says that she dislikes eating meat, but does not call herself a vegetarian. Her reasons for her color and food preferences are a subjet of speculation,however, Ayanami's creator Hideaki Anno is a vegetarian as well.

to...

Throughout the series, Rei's stoic personality compounds intrigue about her, which later results in arousing the scorn of Asuka, who at one point refers to her as a "doll" or "puppet." Rei is quite different from Asuka. While Asuka is extroverted while Rei is introverted, Asuka appears to have a superiority complex while Rei constantly states her life has little value, even their appearance is dramatically different (long hair / short hair; red hair, blue eyes / blue hair, red eyes).

I'm not sure why there's mention of her eating habits are there either, so I opted to remove it. Though, uopn further review I wonder why this comparrison with Asuka was ever in the main blurb at all. It's not an un-interesting point, but seems more useful in it's own section, thoughts? >> Desire Campbell 24.222.232.225 06:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think that what you edited out was quite relevant and usefull to the article...It's all part of the origins of Rei's chara design. Also, Rei's eating habits become relevant when we connect it to Hideaki Anno being vegetarian himself (and who created another vegetarian character: Nadia !). Folken de Fanel 23:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Good points, but what about the part that says Asuka is violent and Rei is the complete opposite? I feel that it's not quite right - sothing along that line, comparring the two Eva pilots - but not 'opposite'.

Perhaps the comparrison with Asuka ahould be a separate section.

DesireCampbell 24.222.232.225 08:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Rei's Aging

In the article, it is stated that Rei's clones were probably artificially aged: "Since Rei has been stated to be 14 in 2015 (and her character model reflects this information), there are most likely several Rei clones, which have been artificially aged. Rei was later stated to have been created from the "salvaged remains" of Yui Ikari after Yui's absorption into Unit 01 in 2004."

I think another theory that should be added there is that the clones simply went through premature aging because of them being cloned from someone who was about 10 years old. You know, just like Dolly (the sheep) aged prematurely because she was cloned from a 6 yr. old sheep.

What do you think?

What is in the article isn't merely theory. It's fact: there are several Rei clones who have not aged "at the same rate". Thus there is artificial aging. That's all the clues the show gives us.

Including your theory would be original research.

By the way, the Rei clones are based on the remains of Yui Ikari, not the first clone we see in ep 21.

Folken de Fanel 22:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, perhaps I didn't explain myself well. I did not mean to say that my theory should be included as a fact, but that it could be included and mentioning that it's a possibility of why Rei was 4 yrs old in 2010 and 14 in 2014. Just like the article mentions artificial aging as a possibility. Also, it is not a fact that Rei was artificially aged. The only thing we see in the show is that there's a 4 yr old Rei in 2010 and that there's a 14 yr. old Rei in 2014. We're never told that she was artificially aged. If you ask yourself why that is so, you might come up with something like "she was probably artificially aged" or "she probably aged faster because she's a clone of an older woman". Both of those are just theories. Neither were confirmed in the series, but both are possible and make a lot of sense. It is indeed a fact that a clone can age way faster if it's cloned from an older living being. About what I said about Rei being cloned from a 10 yr old, that was my mistake. I do know she was cloned from Yui Ikari. That's still an older woman I believe.

Rei's apartment

The original description of her apartment was right; it is rather barren of furnishings and personal touches but is unkempt and cluttered with bandages and other trash. A rewording might not be a bad idea.