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m moved Talk:Estonian Liberation War to Talk:Estonian War of Independence: per move request; see talk page for discussion
closing RM discussion; page moved
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{{move|Estonian War of Independence}}
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The title itself isn't POV - it was used even in Soviet books, e.g the War of “Liberation” , that is, in quotation marks. The title had been so widely used, that the Soviets just tried to reduce it to ''so-called'' Liberation War etc. But was still used. As for alleged anti-Soviet bias... compare different cases by the same comrades: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Soviet_invasion_of_Poland_%281939%29&oldid=96052648#POV_title], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Occupation_of_Latvia_1940-1945], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Latvian_War_of_Independence]. As we all know, every war, that the USSR waged, was a just war, as comrade Stalin put it. It's a pity, though, that such clear soviet POV warriors have found a place to pursue their propaganda here in wikipedia. [[User:Constanz|Constanz]] - [[User_talk:Constanz|Talk]] 08:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The title itself isn't POV - it was used even in Soviet books, e.g the War of “Liberation” , that is, in quotation marks. The title had been so widely used, that the Soviets just tried to reduce it to ''so-called'' Liberation War etc. But was still used. As for alleged anti-Soviet bias... compare different cases by the same comrades: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Soviet_invasion_of_Poland_%281939%29&oldid=96052648#POV_title], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Occupation_of_Latvia_1940-1945], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Latvian_War_of_Independence]. As we all know, every war, that the USSR waged, was a just war, as comrade Stalin put it. It's a pity, though, that such clear soviet POV warriors have found a place to pursue their propaganda here in wikipedia. [[User:Constanz|Constanz]] - [[User_talk:Constanz|Talk]] 08:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

{{{result|The result of the debate was}}} '''PAGE MOVED''' per discussion below. -[[User:GTBacchus|GTBacchus]]<sup>([[User talk:GTBacchus|talk]])</sup> 04:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
== Requested move ==
== Requested move ==
[[Estonian Liberation War]] → [[Estonian War of Independence]] — To reflect common English usage, based on the discussion above & the sources below. [[User:Evv|Evv]] 12:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
[[Estonian Liberation War]] → [[Estonian War of Independence]] — To reflect common English usage, based on the discussion above & the sources below. [[User:Evv|Evv]] 12:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
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===Discussion===
===Discussion===
:''Add any additional comments:''
:''Add any additional comments:''
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->

Revision as of 04:22, 28 December 2006

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Maps of 1919-1920 wars

I need help! I'm currently preparing a set of maps for the Polish-Bolshevik War of 1919-1920, with the sites of the major battles and the frontlines marked. I would also like to include not only the frontlines of the Russo-Polish war, but also the frontlines of the Latvian and Estonian wars with Bolshevist Russia. Could anyone post a link to a map or description of the frontlines?

The maps I'm working on:

  • March 1919
  • December 1919
  • June 1920
  • August 1920

--Halibutt 13:48, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

conflict with the Landeswehr

The previous version depicted the Baltic German Landeswehr in June 1919 as the armed force of United Baltic Duchy. This is misleading, because in 1919 German Kaiser Wilhelm and his vassal princes had certainly no role in any political plans of Baltic Germans or anyone else. What general Goltz certainly wanted was to control Latvia through the puppet government of Latvia. And the assumption that he also wanted to conquer the entire Estonia is more a speculation than a fact. Warbola 05:03, 30 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

May 1919 offensive

"decided to push their defense lines across the border into Russia." sounds like a pro-Estonian way of saying advanced into Russia. Isnt any military attack that then fortifies itself considered "moving defense lines?" A clearer way to say it would be: Having expelled the Estonian Bolsheviks, the Estonian nationalist army then advanced into Russia. Rakovsky 09:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Info box

The info box oversimplifies what was a very complicated political situation. As well as fighting the Bolsheviks, Estonians fought Germans of 2 kinds - Reich-Germans and Baltic Germans whose ambitions were not always the same. Then there were the White Russians, with whom the Estonians did not always have good relations. On should not forget cooperation with Latvian Nationalists, and finally the Western Allies (Britain and France) had influential views of their own. Squeezing this kaleidoscope into two protagonists who sound like "us" and "them" does not do the situation justice. 62.65.192.23 12:22, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Main fighting took place between Estonia and the Bolsheviks. White Russians, Latvians and Britain were connected to Estonian Liberation War only as much as they cooperated with Estonian army, otherwise it is practically impossible to draw any line between Estonian Liberation War and Russian civil war. Landeswehr war was quite small sideconflict that lasted only 1 month(and 1/3 of it was cease-fire). Estonian Liberation War started then Soviets attacked Estonia and ended then Estonia and Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic signed peace treaty at Tartu so it clearly was mainly between Bolsheviks and Estonia. Staberinde 14:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An encyclopedia should be a compendium of knowledge, not the imprinting of video-game mentality onto historical situations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.65.192.20 (talk • contribs) 15:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Main fighting in Estonian Liberation War was between Estonians and blosheviks. Lets look at very similar conflict Polish-Soviet War. There was also very complicated situation, not only fighting between Poles and bolsheviks. Poles fought with some Ukrainians and aganist other Ukrainians. Poles had military conflict with Lithuanians. Also poles cooperated with Latvians. French had their own interests there. Czechoslovakia used moment to take over Tešin. And if I remember correctly then even Estonian and Polish troops even met at some moment in Latvia. So situation was similarly(or even more) complicated. But as we can see from wikipedia article about it, it has infobox, as its featured article its probably not considered oversimplifieing there and I do not see any reason to consider it oversimplifieing in Estonian Liberation War. (Staberinde 14:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Title

Please provide the evidence that ELW is the prevailing name for the conflict in English historiography and has the significant usage there. --Irpen 06:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

also, it's Estonian-POV --TheFEARgod (Ч) 16:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest Estonian War of Independence. --Pudeo (Talk) 16:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since no answer is given for long enough, I am adding a POV-title tag. --Irpen 20:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Estonian Liberation War" and "Estonian War of Independence" are in my opinion only serious options as title. Latter is probably better.--Staberinde 18:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Quick searches :-)
Google Print for "Estonian War of Independence": 11 books.
Google Print for "Estonian Liberation War": 1 book, mentioning "Another Finnish volunteer force of over 4000 men joined in the Estonian liberation war in late December 1918".
Google Scholar for "Estonian War of Independence": 32 results.
Google Scholar for "Estonian Liberation War": 0 results.
Amazon.com for "Estonian War of Independence": 6 books.
Amazon.com for "Estonian Liberation War": 0 books.
Best regards, Evv 21:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where is the POV-title tag on the American War of Independence? The article is called "American Revolutionary War" and has the following footnote:

British writers generally favor "American War of Independence" or "War of American Independence". In the United States, the war is generally called the "Revolutionary War," "War for Independence," or simply "the Revolution."

Try to be objective but try to understand where the search for objectivity turns into obsession. At the end of the day none of us can be fully objective, its something we have to live with. Wait 100 years and see them laugh at what today's editors agree is "objective". Ehaver 20 December 2006 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.65.192.22 (talk • contribs) 20:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I fully agree :-) Irpen started this section two weeks ago, so I guess there's no problem with requesting the move right now. If nobody did it before, I'll file the request in WP:RM in a little while. - Regards, Evv 22:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There is no need for a formal WP:RM if all concerned party agree on the new name at this talk page. --Irpen 22:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I see... nevertheless, a formal WP:RM would allow for the participation and input of other editors, who may be interested on the issue but are not keeping track of this specific article. That's why I would prefer it. Having said that, I leave the decision to more experienced editors, like yourself :-) - Best regards, Evv 23:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
PS: sorry, I went along with the formal WP:RM, because Ghirlandajo's comment made me think that other currently uninvolved editors may object to this particular move. - Best regards, Evv 12:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We still need an admin to do the move because "Estonian War of Independence" is redirect page with history(I tried to make move myselfly but it wasn't possible).--Staberinde 11:56, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While there is no denying that the title is blatantly biassed and does not conform to our policies of neutrality, I take issue with the practice of deleting redirects that lead to this page. --Ghirla -трёп- 12:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That mistake I self-reverted myselfly immediately(explanation on my talk page).--Staberinde 15:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

POV title? But perhaps the Soviet POV is 'POV' for once?

The title itself isn't POV - it was used even in Soviet books, e.g the War of “Liberation” , that is, in quotation marks. The title had been so widely used, that the Soviets just tried to reduce it to so-called Liberation War etc. But was still used. As for alleged anti-Soviet bias... compare different cases by the same comrades: [1], [2], [3]. As we all know, every war, that the USSR waged, was a just war, as comrade Stalin put it. It's a pity, though, that such clear soviet POV warriors have found a place to pursue their propaganda here in wikipedia. Constanz - Talk 08:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 04:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Estonian Liberation War → Estonian War of Independence — To reflect common English usage, based on the discussion above & the sources below. Evv 12:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Survey - Support votes

  1. Support as nominator. - Evv 12:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support. --Ghirla -трёп- 13:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support Estonian Defence Forces also use Independence War. However, in Estonian and Finnish it's almost always called Freedom War. --Pudeo (Talk) 13:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support-clearly most popular name of conflict in English.--Staberinde 16:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support - Evv's proofs are pretty conclusive.--Aldux 13:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support - Estonia was already "liberated" by the Imperial German army. -- Petri Krohn 23:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support- Another great move request from Evv. Well spotted! Asteriontalk 14:06, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, any credit should go to Irpen, Pudeo and Staberinde in the "Title" section above :-) Best regards, Evv 21:09, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey - Oppose votes

Sources

Google Print test

Google Scholar test

Amazon.com test

Best regards, Evv 21:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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