Talk:Giulio Clovio

NPOV tag

Apparently, one more 'translation' of the Italian painter name. Avoiding to list references where this painter is exclusively listed as an Italian painter - yet another reason for the NPOV tag.

Here is a few references mentioning Giorgio Clovio exclusively as the Italain painter Clovio Giorgio Giulio Artcyclopedia, Giulio Clovio Encyclopaedia Britannica, Clovio Giorgio Giulio Masters, Clovio Giorgio Giulio Infoplease , Clovio Giulio Bartleby

As to the 'famous' tag 'Under Klović's bust, beside his name, is written the name of his homeland, which he always emphasized: Julio Clovio de Croatia.' - it's a nonsense. The tag was added much later (19th century) and not immediately after the painter's death.

During his lifetime (1498–1578) there was no Croatia and the Clovio's birthplace could be only in Hungary. It is ok to mention today's name of his birtplace, but original names coming from that time shall be used on the first place.--GiorgioOrsini 23:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I only read your post here afterwards. Anyways, you claim I vandalized the article by "deleting sources". Actually, you have not sourced anything. All you did was post a lot of external links. Until you actually source your info, you can't make such significant claims. Now, on the other hand you have vandalized the article by deleting my sourced info. Until you can prove that my info is wrong (which you can't with little passing references to Italianism) you can't remove it. Cheers. --Thewanderer 04:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Now, I sourced a lot. You did not have anything that is not a link written by someone in Croatia and today. I posted the links and the books that are not supporting the name as given here (Klovic). The links and books are not written in Itally which gives them an aura of neutrality and credibility. I found just speculations that his name might be Glovicic or Glovischich. Apparently another political propaganda with 'properly' naming great Italian people. Also, the books and links emphasized his Macedonian origins. But all references are listing him exclusively as an Italian painter - like it or not.--GiorgioOrsini 02:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Giulio Clovio Croata nonsense

Clovio was nicknamed as Grovato by some of his contemporaries - which might be seen as a mutilated word Croata. Also, some of his paintings he really signed by Macedo. No proof that he ever claimed to be a Croat.--GiorgioOrsini 00:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

You haven't proved any of this. In fact, all you have done is delete my sources. You say there is no proof that he ever claimed to be a Croat. I have at least one source which says he did. However, you have shown exactly zero proof in which he claimed to be an Italian. Stop vandalizing the article and cite sources if you want changes to be made. --Thewanderer 19:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

False reference

Please, check the validity of claims you are trying to sell here cheap. Your reference/link [1] openly claims this nonsense:

Giorgio Vasari, a friend of Klović's wrote his biography. In his second edition of biographies of famous artists (Le Vite, 1568), Giorgi notes that the famous minaturist war born in the Province of Schiavonia or Coruatia (Croatia) in a town called Grisone in the Modruša Diocese (diocesi di Madrucci).

The same book (Le Vite, 1568) is fully reprinted and available today as:

Lives of the Artists (2 Volume Set) (Hardcover) by Giorgio Vasari, Peter Smith Publisher Inc. (June 1993) ISBN: 0844666785

Even from the book Contents it is clear that Vasari did not write the Clovio's biography. The book Contents is visible here.

Once again - please, refrain from removing the links and references I've provided!--GiorgioOrsini 02:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, a non-Croatian source [2] (as well as many others) verifies that he is in Vasari's book, and he appears to be located in the third part. That may be an abridged version you are looking at, or Klović's biographical notes may not form a separate section. Whatever the case, Klović is definately in the book, as it is one of the main sources of info we have about his life.

Also, I have not removed any of your sources or links. Only you have done this. I have even had the common courtesy to incorporate the few sourced parts of your edits into the article. --Thewanderer 17:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Klović's given name was Juraj Klović - this is nonsense - due to the fact that it is not confirmed by any reliable source. He took on the Italianized version his Croatian/Slavic name Giulio Clovio after his fellow artist Giulio Romano when he entered the religious order. - no source for this claim also. His exact ethnicity is unknown, but he was allegedly also called Macedo, or Macedone, to connect him with his supposed Macedonian ancestry. - he used to sign his works as Macedo or Il Macedone - no one says 'unknown' or 'supposed'. And finally your 'non-Croatian source' is badly beaten by - Wikipedia and - unabridged Italian edition. Looks like you like forgeries, don't you?--GiorgioOrsini 21:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

That link points to the 1550 Florence edition. That was the first edition. This article specifically states that he was in the second edition of 1568. Also, Wikipedia itself is not a valid source. So, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop insulting me and give some respect. I have sourced that he changed his name to the Italianized version. The source is a little out of place, so I can easily remedy that. As to reliable sources, we'll have to get a third party to decide that. You obviously don't respect any of my sources, so you're not in a position to adequately judge them.

Also, sites claim that he was called Macedone, but they have not provided any direct instances only vague assertions. You have demanded of me rigourous proof of everything, but you do not rigousously proven anything yourself. Show where he signed as Macedone, as I have already shown his tomb says he was a Croatian painter. --Thewanderer 23:07, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Which article 'specifically states that he was in the second edition of 1568'??? --GiorgioOrsini 21:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

This one (that we are editting) does. The renowned Giorgio Vasari, the first art critic of the modern world, considered Klović to be the greatest miniaturist of the time and included him within his famed artists' biographies (second edition, 1568). You may have missed this section as you repeatedly deleted it. Therefore, to disprove my sources, you'll have to at least find the actual text. --Thewanderer 00:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

So, self-referencing. Are you serious at all????--GiorgioOrsini 16:30, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Please. I have already referenced that he is in Vasari's text. You are the one using incorrect info to try to show my sources are inaccurate. I am not self-referencing - you simply are't bothering to read the article. --Thewanderer 16:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Finally

I found proper Italian references confirming that Vasari wrote about Clovio. Tried to force this Thewanderer to give us the correct reference i.e. the primary source which Thewanderer escaped regularly. The reason is here [3]

For those who can read Italian, Vasari says clearly: "della famiglia de' Clovi, fussero venuti di Macedonia, et il nome suo al battesimo fu Giorgio Iulio" i.e. Clovio's name at baptism was Giorgio Iulio, his family name was Clovi and he is a Macedonian. Therefore, insisting on Juraj Julije Klovic is baseless, doubting into his Macedonian origins is nonsense.

Searching the web I found that 'Giulio Clovio Croata' comes from the Croatians sites and a few of them citing the Croatian sources. All other are using exclusively Giorgio Giulio Clovio, Giulio Clovio, or Giorgio Clovio. So, the claim 'known worldwide as Giulio Clovio Croata,' is yet another (nacionalistic) nonsense that simply pollutes this article.--GiorgioOrsini 17:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

His usual name in English is Giulio Clovio, as used by the British Library etc; the article should be renamed as this. Johnbod 18:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed.--GiorgioOrsini 19:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. I made this decision based on demonstration that Giulio Clovio is the most common name in English language sources, which is the deciding factor per WP:COMMONNAME. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Juraj Julije Klović → Giulio Clovio — As per Vasari, at baptism, Clovio's name was Giorgio Iulio, his family name was Clovi and he was a Macedonian. There is no valid reference that this artist ever used 'Juraj Julije Klović' nor any of his contemporaries ever mentioned this 'translated' name. GiorgioOrsini 20:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Survey - Support votes

1. Support - as the nominator.--Giorgio Orsini 02:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Support - apart from the reasons above, he is a well-known artist who I have always seen called Clovio in English-languages books, museums etc. Until I saw his entry here, and although I was well aware he came from what is now Croatia, I had never seen the Croatian version of his name. In accordance with the Wikipedia policy on names, the Italian version should be used, as being the most commonly used in English (for example by the British Library, London and the Morgan Library, New York - they both use "Giulio Clovio"). What he called himself, or what his contemporaries called him, is not really relevant from the point of view of Wikipedia policy on naming.Johnbod 01:29, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
3. Support - as Johnbod has noted, Clovio is by far the most commonly name used in English language; and it's not really relevant which was his ethnicity, but which is the most commonly used, and there is little doubt regarding this.--Aldux 16:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
4. Support, per Johnbod and Aldux. How he is known in English is most important, the fact that he is rarely if ever known by the current title a strong secondary reason. Gene Nygaard 17:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. Support, most common name as per El Greco but I would bolden the full South Slavic name too in the intro. This does not mean I consider him Italian. Asterion^talk 14:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
6. Support. To quote from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity): Use the name(s) and terminology that the individual or organization themselves use. That pretty much decides it in favor of Clovio, as I understand that he signed his name like this and was referred by this name by his contemporaries. This does not mean that Clovio/Klović was in fact Italian, so let's not discuss what is not the issue here. GregorB 18:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
7. Support The 'Clovio' name has a clear historic justification. 'Klovic' - I wouldn't pay for it a red cent.--BarryMar 01:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Support per WP:UE, Johnbod, Aldux, Gene Nygaard, Asterion & GregorB. - Evv 15:13, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Oppose votes

1. Oppose born, raised there, no evidence of ever admittng to being an Italian. THE MILJAKINATOR 11:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Oppose Agreed. He is a Croat who was also known under italian name, his first name was Croat and why would somebody wanted to change that? Redirect function works perfectly well when you ask for "Giulio Clovio". Ceha 16:07, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
3. Oppose His croatdom is well established, and the fact that he is perhaps better known (although this is HIGHLY debatable) as "Guilio Clovio" doesn't mean his proper name should be thrown out the window. Besides, I feel this rename was started in bad faith and would not accept it based on 5 votes supporting it. --Dr.Gonzo 23:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

   DrGonzo, the point here is not whether the guy was Croatian or not (I do believe the former for a fact), but whether the most commonly used name in English language is Giulio Clovio. I think that El Greco is a very similar example, the article title not being the same as his birth name. Regards, Asterion^talk 23:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

   El Greco is not comparable - El Greco is a nickname, denoting his nationality (his real name was Doménicos Theotocópoulos). I don't understand why we couldn't simply have a redirect from "Giulio Clovio" to the proper article entitled "Juraj Julije Klovic". Call me paranoid, but I believe there is some nationalist/irredentist agenda behind this rename... Oh, one more thing - there are literally thousands of streets, squares, buildings etc. named after Juraj Klovic in Croatia (some of the finest galleries too), and he is an important part of Croatian national heritage. I have NEVER heard him called Giulio Clovio here, ever. So does that count for anything then? --Dr.Gonzo 23:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

   Of course he is rightly called Klovic in Croatia, and that is his article title in the Croatian WP. But he is called Clovio in English, and this is the English WP. Are you saying the Italian WP should also call their article Klovic? This is basic stuff! I have many times reverted to keep him described as "Croatian", but his origin does not give Croatia the right to dictate to the rest of the world what he is called, when was unknown when he left, and became famous in Italy as Clovio. Johnbod 01:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

   Just for the record, the article is under Klovic in the Italian wikipedia. Asterion^talk 02:01, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

   Yes - it is there so, and I've put a note suggesting the name change. I would request the name change equally there like here - if not being limited by the lack od knowledge of Italian language.--Giorgio Orsini 02:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

   Giorgio Orsini, could I request, as a fellow anglophone, that you represent for our language a little better than by barging into the Italian Wikipedia with "What's matter with you people over there?" Not only is it unspeakably rude, it's not even correct English. I'm embarassed by that note, and if I knew Italian, I would go apologize on your behalf, certain that you were typing during an uncharacteristic lapse of judgement. Please be more careful in the future. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

4. Oppose. Official language in Croatia was Latin. He worked in Italy. I think that explains everything... I won't bother to comment those Italian attacks on croatian heritage, although I find them very insulting, nor will I comment that posts that says that there were no Croatia, because anybody can see that's not true. -- Martin 12:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
5. Oppose. Official language in Croatia was Latin. To calm those who deny Croatia at those times, I'll remind him than on Appeninne peninsula there was no Italy, but the Republic of Venice, Grand Duchy of Tuscany, Papal States etc.. Gonzo is not paranoid. There is an Italian nationalist-irredentist offensive on en.wiki, hidden behind the renaming of various Croatian names/surnames and toponyms (I've found similar cases with other South Slavic peoples). Kubura 12:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

His entry in the Getty Union List of Artist Names, which is the most up-to-date and reputable database of these reads:

Clovio, Giulio (Croatian illuminator, 1498-1578, active in Italy) [500022657]

This is authoritative regarding both name and nationality. [4]

Johnbod 18:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I just looked at very first original version of the article, from 2004, which, I think puts the question of commonest-used name rather well (my bolds):

Juraj Julije Klović (Grižane, 1498 - 1578, Rome - Roma Rim) Throughout the world known by the name of Giulio Clovio, Klović is one of the most illustrious Croats. Renown Giorgio Vasari, first Art critic of the modern world, considered Klović to be the .... Johnbod 23:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Simple tests

Google Print test

• Searching for "Giulio Clovio": 50 books in English published since 1990.
• Searching for "Giorgio Giulio Clovio": 22 books in English.
• Searching for "Juraj Julije Klovic": 0 books in English.
  Searching for "Juraj Julije": 0 books in English.
• Searching for "Julije Klovic": 2 books in English.

Google Scholar test

• Searching for "Giulio Clovio": 103 results in English.
• Searching for "Giorgio Giulio Clovio": 10 results in English.
• Searching for "Juraj Julije Klovic": 1 result in English.
  Searching for "Juraj Julije": 1 result in English (the same one as before).
• Searching for "Julije Klovic": 2 results in English (including the same one as before).

Amazon.com test

• Searching for "Giulio Clovio": 78 books in English.
• Searching for "Giorgio Giulio Clovio": 6 books in English.
• Searching for "Juraj Julije Klovic": 0 book in English.
  Searching for "Juraj Julije": 1 book in English using Juraj Julije Klović.
• Searching for "Julije Klovic": 0 books in English (1 in Croatian).
  Searching for "Julije ": 4 books in English using Julije Klović (travel guides to Croatia & Botswana).

The New York Times:

• Searching for "Giulio Clovio ": 8 results.
• Searching for "Giorgio Giulio Clovio ": 0 results.
• Searching for "Juraj Julije Klovic ": 0 results.
  Searching for "Juraj Julije ": 0 results.
• Searching for "Julije Klovic ": 0 results.

Best regards, Evv 00:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Evv many thanks for this test. I hope that some people might find this useful - in order to drop their baseless opposition to the article name change.--Giorgio Orsini 03:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

On canvassing

Note for closing admin: There has been heavy canvassing on this RQM survey. Asterion^talk 15:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Further note: Among these that were contacted in the canvassing by the anon. is one of the voters, user:Ceha. For completeness, there was also a similar aborted attempt by GiorgioOrsini (talk · contribs), but after a warning he interrupted. At the moment, none of those contacted by the latter user have voted.--Aldux 16:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't really see your point. Is canvassing somehow illegal on Wikipedia? Oh, and Aldux, I would appreciate it if you DIDN't delete messages on my talk page. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dr.Gonzo&diff=97742391&oldid=97668939

I don't understand what you were trying to achieve. --Dr.Gonzo 23:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

This is very easy to explain: votestacking is a violation of WP:SPAM, and an attempt to disrupt the regular going of the poll. For this I have to ask the closing admin not to take in account the votes of both User:Dr.Gonzo and user:Ceha.--Aldux 01:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

What is violated when somebody informs you there is something wrong with some page? Besaides the votestaking, doesn't any of the wikipedians have the right to say what he/she means?
--Ceha 20:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, this vote was started in bad faith, and regardless of canvassing, it should be scrapped altogether. --Dr.Gonzo 01:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

None of that matters. The only important thing is: what's the most common name for the article's subject? From the above, it appears that Giulio Clovio is the far more common name in English language sources, therefore the Wikipedia article should be titled Guilio Clovio, per our naming conventions.

Furthermore, I would remind editors to refrain from speculating about one another's "bad faith"; it turns out that such speculation does not lead to solutions. Also, regarding canvassing, I would suggest that the appropriate way to bring more voices to a discussion such as this would be to post notes on appropriate article and project talk pages, rather than cross-posting to specific user talk pages. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nationality

These references regarding Klović/Clovio by GiorgioOrsini simply aren't adequate to declare him Italian. The references are anything but rigorous. Klović/Clovio is Italian in the sense that he worked in Italy. But he is Croatian first and foremost because it was his homeland and the site of his upbringing (first language, family, etc.). As mentioned above the Getty Union List of Artist Names has this: "Clovio, Giulio (Croatian illuminator, 1498-1578, active in Italy)". This is a respectable, neutral site whose focus is on confusing situations such as these. --Thewanderer 21:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

His nationality not in question nor it can be claimed using any rational reason. From the today's point of view i.e. the contemporary definition of the nationality - Clovio was a Hungarian or/and Venetian, not a Croat. As a state, Croatia that time did not extst at all. Here, he is mentioned just as an Italian Renaissance painter and miniaturist - as it can be seen from the references. Also, be advised not to put the pseudo historical claim about never existed Croatia-Hungary 'personal union'.--Giorgio Orsini 04:24, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Pseudo historical claim? What was kingdom of two Sicilies during the sixteen century, when it's kings were Habsbourgs? Part of Spain or Austria? Croatia had its own parliment and other sign's of its statehood, no matter that its kings were not Croats.
Second he was born in Modruš diocese, which is in modern central Croatia (Lika, Gorski Kotor and Rijeka) which was never part of Venice. How could he be Italian just based on a fact that he worked in petty Italian kingdoms (Italy did not exist at that time, remember:)
Ceha 5:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Here, the Italian Renaissance painter is commonly accepted term that marks the medieval Italy (common name for the Papal State, Genoese and Venitan Republics) and a well-known period and place in the European art history (Italian Renaissance). Clovio is not born in modern Croatia - rather was born in Hungary of that time. As to the 'personal union' and the 'Croatian parliament' of that time - take a course in the late medieval history of the Hungarian kingdom. As to the Venitian republic - Clovio was her citizen and Giulio Clovio was the legal painter name.--Giorgio Orsini 02:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Take a course? Please do. There is a very good history course in University in Zagreb. Would you like a link?:)
There is a difference between this to notions which you mentioned. Italy as a geografical therm (apenines peninsula) and Italy as a modern state. Same goes for Hungary. Modern state of Hungary is much smaller then the acient medieval Croato-Hungarian kingdom. Klović lived with Croatian people (not Italian, or Hungarian) and he was raised as a Croat...
--Ceha 20:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

GiorgioOrsini, there is absolutely no reason to be dismissive of other users' views. I would also appreciate if no further reverts take place till the survey ends. Thanks, Asterion^talk 04:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I used to respect only those pieces of advice bringing to me an effective knowledge. The above one is not of that type.--Giorgio Orsini 03:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment on the nationality debate

Note: I was directed to this page by the anonymous user who was spamming users to come here, so I will not be participating in the above vote, as it would be "improper".

First of all, to GiorgioOrsini, your above argument is not valid (i.e he's not Croatian because at the time it was part of Hungary). By your logic, Klovic/Clovio cannot be called Italian, because Italy did not exist at the time - he would be called Venetian since he became a citizen of Venice. However, if I was to vote in the above requested move, I would support the name change to "Giulio Clovio". "Clovio" is much more well known as his name in the English speaking world. But, it has been established that his ethnicity was Croat - which brings me to my next point, that nationality and ethnicity are different things, and in the modern sense of the word, his nationality would be Italian, but his ethnicity would be Croat. I would suggest the title of the page be changed to "Giulio Clovio" and the lead sentence be changed to "Giorgio Giulio Clovio (1498–1578), (sometimes known as Juraj Julije Klović), was a Italian illuminator, miniaturist, and painter, of Croat descent." I think most people could settle for this compromise.

Another thing I'd like to say is, too many people place too much importance on the ethnicity/nationality of historical figures like Klovic/Clovio, instead of focusing on the person's contribution to society. I mean, I've seen talk pages much longer than their article, and the only focus on the talk page was the person's origin (see Talk:Ivana Miličević for a good example, as it's now featured on Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars. Anyway, I think what I've written above is a good compromise, and most people could settle for it. —KingIvan 03:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

How about: "Giorgio Giulio Clovio (1498–1578), known in Croatian as Juraj Julije Klović, was an illuminator, miniaturist, and painter, of Croat origin, who worked in Italy."

- "descent" rather implies his parents came from Croatia, but not him. I note (recent edit summary to article) that Giorgio Orsini does not think an adjectival Croat or Italian before "illuminator" is a statement of nationality - but I'm sure many people take it to mean that. This phrasing removes that ambiguity, I think. Johnbod 03:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this. User:Ivan Kricancic totally misses the fact that Clovio/Klović was born and lived in the Kingdom of Croatia until he was 18 (as confirmed by Vasari), apart from being an ethnic Croat. Croatia was never a part of Hungary before the 19th century, although certain texts will erroneously claim this to give a simpler, less exhaustive explanation of the region. User:Johnbod's intro is fair, and those who have a great deal of opposition are probably editting in bad faith, whether they are Croatian or Italian.

I'd also like to say that it is not my intent to start edit wars, but it sets horrible precedent when Medieval and Renaissance Croats who (by necessity) worked abroad are unfairly labelled as the nationality of the country they worked in, without considering the wider picture. I have tried and I have offered to make compromises, but the Italian side has failed to make a single compromise in return. You may notice I have tried to expand the article with bits and pieces of info along the way, because I am getting just as tired of this edit war as anyone. --Thewanderer 15:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Clovio considered himself being a Macedionian - not a Croat. Respect his own words, please.--Giorgio Orsini 03:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't miss the point - I knew he was born and raised in Croatia. But what I was trying to do was reach a compromise so there wouldn't be any edit warring on this article. And yes, I would also agree to Johnbod's re-phrasing of the intro, above. —KingIvan 15:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll put it in now Johnbod 16:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, this is getting into denying (in any possible way)Klović's ties with Croatia and Croats, either by claiming he's Italian or Macedonian. Like 19th century slogan of Italian irredentist propaganda in Croatian provinces: "any name, any nationality, but Croat". Still, if he's Macedonian, he still wouldn't be Clovio, but Klović. Kubura 12:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Saying that Giorgio Giulio Clovio (1498–1578), was an Italian Renaissance illuminator, miniaturist, and painter - has nothing to do with Clovio's supposed nationality. The idea of nationality used today is simply not applicable to the people lived long ago. The Italian Renaissance illuminator simply locates Clovio's life and work in an history of art period of the European culture. Also, Clovio considered himself being a Macedonian (because of his ethnic background) and, therefore, used to sign his works as Il Macedo.--Giorgio Orsini 03:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, saying that Giorgio Giulio Clovio (1498–1578), was an Italian Renaissance illuminator, miniaturist, and painter - does have to do with his "supposed" nationality. If it just said "Giorgio Giulio Clovio (1498–1578), was an Renaissance illuminator, miniaturist, and painter", then it would have nothing to do with his nationality. Whether or not the Italian Renaissance differed from the Renaissance in other parts of Europe is irrelevant - if the lead section states "Italian Renaissance illuminator", people are going to assume it means "an Italian painter from the Renaissance period", especially if you don't link "Italian renaissance" (i.e Italian Renaissance). However, I wouldn't object if you changed the lead sentence to "Giorgio Giulio Clovio (1498–1578) (sometimes known as Juraj Julije Klović), was an illuminator, miniaturist, and painter during the Italian Renaissance period." —KingIvan 06:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

This is exactly why I added " He was the greatest illuminator of the Italian High Renaissance" when I put in my new version. A leading adjective is ambiguous, and it is disingenuous of you to pretend otherwise, Giorgio. It is fine as it is. Johnbod 19:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)